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Lindsey's Sexuality?

DeadlyDuo

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@vampmogs The costume department would not buy a woman's coat for a male character to wear, particularly when the Nikki backstory hadn't even been thought of yet. Also, given that men tend to be broader in the shoulders than women, men's coats tend to be wider whereas women's are more form fitting. Notice how in the pictures below, the coat seems to hang off of Nikki's shoulders whereas it fits Spike's shoulders perfectly. (Couldn't find a smaller version of the Spike pic).



The point I'm arguing about Sunnydale is that in Season 7, it is shown to be completely landlocked so that it can fall into a crater. However, in Season 2 and 3 it was shown to have docks. You're arguing that the later reveal that Spike got his coat from Nikki retroactively means that he was wearing a woman's coat in Season 2 (even though he clearly isn't). My point is that if you're retroactively applying later canon to the earlier seasons, how do you explain Sunnydale having docks yet supposedly being completely land locked? Nikki was wearing a man's coat which Spike then took. Spike was not wearing a woman's coat.
 

vampmogs

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Nikki could very well have been wearing a man's coat. Maybe it was Li's, who was the father of Robin. But she was absolutely wearing a coat tailored for a man. It's really not a crazy concept that a woman wears a men's jacket, especially that of a lover. She may have bought it despite it being tailored for a masculine frame or was given it.
I don't think it's a crazy concept either. Men and women wearing the other genders clothing is not an issue whatsoever for me and not something that's a big deal to me at all. But since we can't say for certain (proven simply by the amount of speculation/fanon that everybody, myself included, is having to do in this thread) we're free to come up with our own interpretations on this. And I personally find it far more interesting if Spike is wearing a woman's coat for a lot of reasons :)

@DeadlyDuo I'm afraid you're just going to have to let it go. I'm not changing my mind on this, sorry. You have no way or proving this just as I don't either. I'm free to come up with my own interpretation and I really don't understand why it would bother you so much as it impacts nothing. Just agree to disagree 👋
 

NileQT87

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Speaking from an actual female experience, it's extremely common for women to borrow men's jackets from a father, husband, boyfriend, brother, etc... It's exceedingly rare for a man to borrow a woman's jacket for the reason that while most women of normal size can find a guy's jacket to wear if they find themselves without (it's also a part of chivalry for men to offer), a man of normal size is not going to fit well into a woman's jacket. Most women's jackets also have boob darts that are going to look mega dorky, even if the guy is particularly small or the woman is well above average-sized.

Likewise, tailoring meant for boobs and hips is why women's pants, dresses and skirts don't actually look very good on men, whereas some Arab/Indian garments that are shaped like boxy dresses are actually tailored for men's body shapes (rectangular, not pear-shaped) don't look strange at all. Not politically correct to say, but there's a reason why clothes are tailored differently and why some feminine clothes aren't going to look great on an unaltered male body.

With women in men's clothes, it's more a matter that the women in question are usually swimming in overly large men's shirts and jackets when they do borrow them and they look like little children in hand-me-downs with all the sleeves, waists and cuffs rolled up. The effect is usually cute in a childish way or comical (or sexy if there's some major cleavage from a plunging, oversized neckline). Such a shirt might even be down to a girl's knees if there's a major height difference. Men's pants also have a lower crotch for obvious reasons and womanly hips are going to be a problem even if the pants are otherwise small enough to fit properly.

Part of tailoring is for differences in anatomy. Women's jackets are darted for breasts and have the waist cinched in (unless it's the '80s where it was all genderless box shapes and shoulder pads meant to make career women look like men with wide shoulders--the look was completed with hideous permed cobra hair meant to make women look bigger). Men's jackets, on the contrary, are tailored for the rectangular male torso with no darts or cinched waists, as well as much wider shoulders. It's very easy to tell that the iconic Spike jacket was bought from the men's section.

You'll also notice that the late '90s had a big trend of very boxy, slightly-oversized, rectangular male clothing, such as the wide-legged dress pants, the blousy silk/velvet shirts with the big, boxy Hugo Boss coat you see on Angel (the untucked shirts also served to widen his silhouette even more). Pretty much all the shirts and pants on Xander were huge on him. Spike was actually a bit out of trend with the skinny jeans that harkened back to a dated punk rocker look.

Nikki wearing a man's jacket rings completely true to the female experience. It also furthers the idea that she was the rare exception to the Slayer experience in that she ever had a love life in addition to a pregnancy. We even saw her boyfriend Li in a comic. It actually fits her story really well for her to have men in her life whose jacket she would believably be wearing. It also doesn't fit her in the shoulders, so it very likely is second-hand or borrowed rather than new and off-the-rack in her backstory.

It also makes it a huge connection between Nikki and Buffy for both to have worn (quite significantly so) their boyfriends' leather jackets. Pre-Surprise, Buffy was building up quite the collection of wearable trinkets.

What isn't in doubt, however, is that it's a man's jacket bought in the men's department of a store in 1997.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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I'm mostly with @vampmogs here. Spike is quite androgynous, which is only made more obvious by his need to assert his masculinity and question the masculinity and sexuality of everyone around him. His traditionally masculine and feminine traits are both comically exaggerated. He is something halfway between a football hooligan and a cooky old aunt. In a way, Drusilla and Spike are inversions of each other. Drusilla presents as very femme and quite infantile, but is perhaps the most callous and ruthless of the Whirlwind. Spike presents as very aggressive, but his favourite pastime is watching sappy soap operas.

Nikki's jacket is more than just a jacket to Spike. It is specifically Nikki's jacket. The slayers represents a kind of ideal to Spike, which he seeks to emulate. When Spike took that coat from Nikki, it became a symbol of his defeat of her. He had taken some of her power with it. That is why he needs the coat to fight the demon in "Get it Done" and describes it as his armour in "The Girl in Question."

Whether the coat is a man's coat doesn't really matter. Spike could have beaten up a male vampire or demon and taken their jacket. He must have beaten up hundreds of people with cool clothes since the 70s. But Spike wanted to kill slayers and when the second one had a coat that fit him, he wore it like a talisman to keep some of her power with him.

And Spike is extremely vain. The coat is just one item of a larger outfit that gels together. It is the coat, the nails, the hair, the boots and sometimes a shirt to add a bit of colour. It is not something he just threw together randomly. It is a very deliberate creation.

As for Lindsey, I think much of the tension between him and Angel would disappear if Lindsey was revealed to be either gay or straight. Angel represents something quite ambiguous to Lindsey, and there is a part of him who admires him. What drives Lindsey is a desire for freedom, after what happened to his father. Angel is in a sense free, as he lives by his own code. That is why Lindsey is so angry with him in S5, because Angel did not follow the advice that Lindsey gave him about not letting WRH make him play there game. In S5, he reminds Angel that "heros don't accept the world for what it is."

It is quite common, though, for straight people to develop kinda erotic obsessions with people of the same sex. A good example is the way athletes and other celebrities are worshipped.
 

nightshade

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Can we get back to the topic, if you want to discuss Spike's coat then please open a new thread.
 

katmobile

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I think Joss Whedon's LGBT support is as dubious as his feminist credentials. We have had a lot of discussion about feminism in the Whedonverse and generally it smacks of opportunism rather than feminism. His story about the little blonde girl who defies expectation and not only survives but actively demolishes the monsters was interpreted as feminist, but this was a case of Joss finding out which way the parade was going and cutting in front of it to say he was the leader.

His support for LGBT issues is much the same thing. After a very positive response from the fans, he made a point of making a lot of will they / won't they hints about couples like Fuffy and Spangel. He still went for the "kill your gays" trope with Tillow and as I recall, Larry Blaisdell doesn't survive the battle against the Mayor.
I think it's more he's geunine but ends up being sexist and homophobic because he's reflecting previous writing tropes unconsciously. Lani of Chipperish calls it terrior - which is in a viniculture term meaning if it's in the ground it'll be in the grapes. We absorb the culture around us organically and don't even realise we're doing it half the time and a lot of the culture is toxic.
 

katmobile

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I don't think it's a crazy concept either. Men and women wearing the other genders clothing is not an issue whatsoever for me and not something that's a big deal to me at all. But since we can't say for certain (proven simply by the amount of speculation/fanon that everybody, myself included, is having to do in this thread) we're free to come up with our own interpretations on this. And I personally find it far more interesting if Spike is wearing a woman's coat for a lot of reasons :)

@DeadlyDuo I'm afraid you're just going to have to let it go. I'm not changing my mind on this, sorry. You have no way or proving this just as I don't either. I'm free to come up with my own interpretation and I really don't understand why it would bother you so much as it impacts nothing. Just agree to disagree 👋
True I used to wear men's jumpers as a teenager as I like the colours and designs more. Nicki does seem subversive and bold enough to wear a man's coat.
 

vampmogs

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As for Lindsey, I agree with those who have said that Lindsey identifies as straight but that he wouldn't run away if Angel came onto him. There's definitely this underlying homoerotic sexual tension on his end and the writers tease it too ( Darla: "it's not me you wanna screw").

I absolutely agree think that Lindsey would deny it but under the right circumstances and in a heightened situation, I could totally see it happening. It reminds me a lot of Buffy/Faith in that regard.
 

Xochiquetzal

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As for Lindsey, I agree with those who have said that Lindsey identifies as straight but that he wouldn't run away if Angel came onto him. There's definitely this underlying homoerotic sexual tension on his end and the writers tease it too ( Darla: "it's not me you wanna screw").

I absolutely agree think that Lindsey would deny it but under the right circumstances and in a heightened situation, I could totally see it happening. It reminds me a lot of Buffy/Faith in that regard.
I don't know that I'd call it sexual tension, I think it has to do with Lindsey's need for acknowledgement. Angel had a huge influence on Lindsey's life to the point that, at his death, Lindsey was fine with fighting alongside Angel, would have accepted Angel killing him, and had fairly recently tried to kill Angel. I don't think there's any kind of attention he could get from Angel that he would have turned down. The specific act wasn't important, as long as it proved Lindsey was as important to Angel as Angel was to him.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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Spike's coat is not a woman's coat. It is a man's coat that was worn by a woman. There's a difference.
Spike is wearing a TROPHY. Serial killers take things off bodies of victims. It was not a gendered act. Serial killers sometimes save women's clothing. Some of them may be sexually ambiguous, but most are not. Most men who rape men are not gay, though some are. Acts associated with a violent show of dominance don't always tell us about the attacker's sexual preference (other than for using force, in the case of rape)

People have sex outside their sexual preference for a bunch of complex reasons. Straight people in prison have same sex involvement bc they they need sex and companionship or are using their body as currency. Gay people sometimes sleep with the opposite sex to conform. Sexuality is not an absolute. That said, some people are much closer to 1 or 6 on the scale. Some like me are jist a bit bent. Some are right in the middle.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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If a man rapes a man, it is still a gendered act, even if the rapist identifies as straight. If a straight man rapes a man, then he is treating that man as though he were a woman, so it may be more gendered than if the rapist was gay.

A trophy is a significant item for the one who collects it. If a serial killer collects female clothing, then there has to be some reason for that. Like, Spike collects Buffy's clothing, so he can sniff it and put it on his shrine.
 
Meliza
Meliza
The terminology is gendered violence, sexual violence is gendered. "A gendered action" fits less well because woman can commit assault as well.

DeepBlueJoy

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If a man rapes a man, it is still a gendered act, even if the rapist identifies as straight. If a straight man rapes a man, then he is treating that man as though he were a woman, so it may be more gendered than if the rapist was gay.

A trophy is a significant item for the one who collects it. If a serial killer collects female clothing, then there has to be some reason for that. Like, Spike collects Buffy's clothing, so he can sniff it and put it on his shrine.
Not saying it is not gendered. Just that it is complicated and does not automatically reveal sexual identity/preference.
 

katmobile

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Spike is wearing a TROPHY. Serial killers take things off bodies of victims. It was not a gendered act. Serial killers sometimes save women's clothing. Some of them may be sexually ambiguous, but most are not. Most men who rape men are not gay, though some are. Acts associated with a violent show of dominance don't always tell us about the attacker's sexual preference (other than for using force, in the case of rape)

People have sex outside their sexual preference for a bunch of complex reasons. Straight people in prison have same sex involvement bc they they need sex and companionship or are using their body as currency. Gay people sometimes sleep with the opposite sex to conform. Sexuality is not an absolute. That said, some people are much closer to 1 or 6 on the scale. Some like me are jist a bit bent. Some are right in the middle.
I've always thought that the Kinsey scale was a more nuanced way of talking about sexual orientation that gay, bi or straight it explains sometimes why people who like they're het or homo exclusively sometimes surprise everyone including themselves by falling for someone outside of their preferred gender - quite often people who are bi prefer one gender but are still attracted to the other.

I agree that the goat is a trophy but I also do think that Spike's gender ID is ambivalent. Really read the essay 'Love's Bitch but Many Enough to Admit It'. Both Spike and Xander I think prefer the company of women as both experience other men mainly as bullies.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I've always thought that the Kinsey scale was a more nuanced way of talking about sexual orientation that gay, bi or straight it explains sometimes why people who like they're het or homo exclusively sometimes surprise everyone including themselves by falling for someone outside of their preferred gender - quite often people who are bi prefer one gender but are still attracted to the other.

I agree that the coat is a trophy but I also do think that Spike's gender ID is ambivalent. Really read the essay 'Love's Bitch but Many Enough to Admit It'. Both Spike and Xander I think prefer the company of women as both experience other men mainly as bullies.
I agree. I have no issue with Xander and Spike being complicated and nuanced in BOTH gender identity AND sexual orientation scales. The question was about Lindsay, however. If the writers were trying to create a character that came across as either gender or orientation fluid, IMO, they failed. Lindsay simply never showed us any sexuality toward another man. His gender ID is like many men in his age group - metrosexual. Vain, and comfortable with it. Nothing in him reads as gay or trans. Urban cowboy, maybe.
 

Xochiquetzal

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I think the reason all the examples are Angel-centric are because we're not seeing a depiction of ambiguous sexuality, we're seeing a depiction of an obsession that pervades every aspect of Lindsey's life, even his (hetero) sexual expression.
 

Meliza

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I agree. I have no issue with Xander and Spike being complicated and nuanced in BOTH gender identity AND sexual orientation scales. The question was about Lindsay, however. If the writers were trying to create a character that came across as either gender or orientation fluid, IMO, they failed. Lindsay simply never showed us any sexuality toward another man. His gender ID is like many men in his age group - metrosexual. Vain, and comfortable with it. Nothing in him reads as gay or trans. Urban cowboy, maybe.
I agree. I think there is a precedent of writing rivals with a certain amount of angst, subtext does add layers and contextualize otherwise one dimensional characters and dynamics. I never saw that with Lindsay and Angel, however if the writers were aiming for and failing to acheive a certain characterization it makes sense why it never clicked.
 

Xochiquetzal

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Just gonna put this out there, might even sound like a defense, the reason I understand people shipping Lindsey with anyone is because it matches my experience of bisexuality. I was first interested in a person that I had no expectation of having sex with, then started thinking about the gendered-ness of that interest. Surely I'm not the only person in the world who thought, well, if I like Tom maybe I'll like another dude too...
 

DeepBlueJoy

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Just gonna put this out there, might even sound like a defense, the reason I understand people shipping Lindsey with anyone is because it matches my experience of bisexuality. I was first interested in a person that I had no expectation of having sex with, then started thinking about the gendered-ness of that interest. Surely I'm not the only person in the world who thought, well, if I like Tom maybe I'll like another dude too...
As a bisexual woman, your experience is familiar. I think it is fine to ship whomever you like. As long as you build the character"s sexuality in a believable way, i will enjoy it.

My comment was more about what was intended in canon. If they were going for Lindsay having attraction to Angel or him being bisexual, I don't see any evidence in the narrative. A pity!

Frankly, there isn't enough positive portrayal of bisexuality in media. Gay and trans people have become more visible and, thankfully, less stigmatuzed.

Sadly, i still get the "make up your mind" "you must secretly be lesbian" (sometimes from gay people) or even "dont be greedy". Also, there seems to be the thought that bi people must be hypersexual and not trustworthy. In actuality, i am a one person person and so are most bi people I know. Terribly boring. :) Currently, i appear "straight". Should i ever find myself married to another woman, I will probably be labeled lesbian. Shrug.
 
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