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Moira & Kye-rumption

Mrs Gordo

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#1
Not trying to go down the trail of Cangel v. other ships but let me ask you all this: Why do you think the writers chose these two words to try and convince Angel that he and Cordy were meant to be. Let's examine the definitions:

Moira: "Moira is the gut physical attraction between two larger than life souls."

Kye-rumption: "It's when two great heroes meet on the field of battle and recognize their mutual fate."

Now, I really don't think you have to ship Buffy/Angel to recognize the irony of these words within the context of Angel's love life. Moira basically describes Buffy and Angel Seasons 1-3 right? And then Kyerumption throwing around words like heroes and fate, its hard not to make the comparison with Buffy and Angel there either. Buffy and Angel are inarrugable Heros/Champions/Warriors for the PTB, both have a fate/destiny/calling to fight evil etc.

When Angel and Cordy first met on BtVS, Angel was completely uninterested in Cordelia romantically so how does the "gut physical attraction" deal fit when he didn't even seem to look at her romantically until AtS Season 3 - 6 years.

Also, what do you make of the implication that Cordelia is a "great hero" in the Buffyverse and did Angel and Cordelia have "mutual fates?"

Were the writers purposefully trying to draw the Bangel comparisons? Or was that just some strange coincidence?

I have a theory on this but I will reveal my theory after some feedback :)
 

Fool for Buffy

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Sineya
#2
It's blatantly obvious that these words describe Buffy and Angel almost perfectly and certainly significantly more than Angel and Cordy. So I'm sure the writers were at least aware of the parallels. However I don't think I can believe they were only attempting to make the parallels. They'd have to know that by establishing a Cangel romance they would be upsetting many fans, and I think they wouldn't, for lack of a better word, "mock" the Bangel relationship.

Rather the words are supposed to elevate Cordy and the Cangel relationship by giving it a heroic title, and the clear parallels are just an unfortunate flaw that the writers tried to hide by using other languages and having Fred say it with her adorable face.

Though forced into the role by Doyle, I do get the Cordy as a hero thing because the visions do tear her apart physically and she not only withstands them but keeps a positive attitude and continually aids AI in other ways despite not being in good condition.
 

Fool for Buffy

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Sineya
#4
Did that work for you?
Sort of, I mean I hadn't really thought of the two as a "couple" of heroes before, and someone like Fred who has no knowledge of Buffy apart from vague second hand saying that does provide a perspective that others see them as heroes. So I guess I bought it because if I had never seen Buffy and Angel together before I would totally understand. I still don't think I would have wanted Cangel as more than friends, but an impartial viewing of the Kyerumption makes this kinda work. Does that make sense? Sometimes I can't tell if my explanations make sense to anyone but me.
 

Puppet

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#5
Imo, there isn't a single part of Cangel that isn't completely forced, in every way. So I definitely buy into that description being Bangel, though whether it was on accident or not, I can't say. To have been a fly in the writer's room, though... :D
 

Grace

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#6
I thought the moira thing especially was about how Fred sees Angel and Cordelia, more than anything. Fred doesn't know Buffy, but she does know and admire Cordelia. So she's shipping them. Lorne later uses kyrumption as well, but my interpretation is that Angel must have missed the shot that Lorne saw when he read him, since Angel/Cordelia never really happened. Also, there's nothing strictly romantic about kyrumption as Fred defined it.

Also, what do you make of the implication that Cordelia is a "great hero" in the Buffyverse and did Angel and Cordelia have "mutual fates?"
I think this part is true. I would say that Cordelia is a hero by the point moira and kyrumption get thrown around. And Angel and Cordelia clearly have mutual fates because the visions she gets are for him. So their lives are supernaturally entwined.

Were the writers purposefully trying to draw the Bangel comparisons? Or was that just some strange coincidence?
I do think there was probably an element of wanting to elevate Cordelia, as @Fool for Buffy says. And who better for Angel than another Buffy? (As Joss said: "I once said that I finally got to tell the story of Buffy that I tried to tell in the movie, and I did it with Cordelia. Which was the story of someone who was completely ditzy and self-involved becoming kind of heroic.") I don't think it was necessarily deliberate but I can see why Cordy kind of evolved into a Buffy-like figure.
 

Mrs Gordo

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#7
I don't think it was necessarily deliberate but I can see why Cordy kind of evolved into a Buffy-like figure.
Except if Joss is saying that he finally got to tell the Buffy story in Cordy then maybe it was deliberate? I think the viewers either bought the character growth of Cordy S3 or they didn’t and if they did buy it then I could see the Kye-rumption thing working for those viewers.
 

Grace

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#8
Except if Joss is saying that he finally got to tell the Buffy story in Cordy then maybe it was deliberate? I think the viewers either bought the character growth of Cordy S3 or they didn’t and if they did buy it then I could see the Kye-rumption thing working for those viewers.
Yeah, that's true. Maybe it was. I personally buy the idea that once we get to Birthday, nothing about Cordelia is 100% Cordelia anymore – she's being influenced/manipulated – so it starts to get all mixed up in there for me.
 

Mrs Gordo

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#9
Here is my crack pot theory!

In Inside Out this is what Skip says:

ANGEL
It wasn't just her ascension. Everything that's happened to Cordy in the past few years—all of it—was planned.

SKIP
You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.

I think that the Jazmine stuff is at play here. I think that Jazmine uses Angel's friends to influence his relationship with Cordelia. And I think that Jazmine is specifically using Buffy/Angel parallels to elevate the once friendship to a romantic relationship. The influences of Jazmine continue as she slowly turns Cordelia's character into a Buffy like character including blonde hair! It is to Jazmine's benefit to have Angel fall in love with Cordelia because Jazmine believes Angel won't be able to kill her to stop her. And I think Angel realizes ALL of this in Inside Out as well and that is why he hesitates when he says:

ANGEL
Whatever's taken over Cordy, it's still her inside. She's still our friend. She's still the woman I... I won't let you carry that. I can't.

So yeah that's sorda my theory on all of this.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Good one!

Grace

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#10
I think that the Jazmine stuff is at play here.
I do, too, to an extent. But I don't think that Jasmine really moved everyone around on a chessboard for years and years. If she was that powerful, shouldn't she have foreseen what would happen to defeat her and influenced events differently so as to prevent it? So I think Skip is full of it, and that Jasmine took advantage of the situation rather than creating it. But I know that canon supports other interpretations.

The influences of Jazmine continue as she slowly turns Cordelia's character into a Buffy like character including blonde hair! It is to Jazmine's benefit to have Angel fall in love with Cordelia because Jazmine believes Angel won't be able to kill her to stop her.
This part I am definitely on board with. I think whatever Skip did to Cordelia in Birthday allowed her to be influenced/manipulated by Jasmine. She became too mature too quickly, and Angel's weakness for blondes was well known. So Cordelia did end up being very Buffy-esque.
 
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Mrs Gordo

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#11
If she was that powerful, shouldn't she have foreseen what would happen to defeat her and influenced events differently so as to prevent it?
True.... so when did this all start? If its Birthday then my theory falls apart. Which you know, I can live with that. But it was a good theory darn it!
 

Grace

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#12
True.... so when did this all start? If its Birthday then my theory falls apart. Which you know, I can live with that. But it was a good theory darn it!
I think you could make your theory work if it all started at "That Vision Thing." Once Cordelia's link to the powers is corrupted by W&H, Jasmine is able to begin influencing her and those around her? And then Skip went further in Birthday, and even further in Tomorrow, increasing Jasmine's hold?
 

Mrs Gordo

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#13
I think Birthday is a good division though. I wish we had a more clearly delineated time. I dont even know in Season 4 if ANY of that is Cordy or if its Cordy up until Spin the Bottle.
 
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#15
Not trying to go down the trail of Cangel v. other ships but let me ask you all this: Why do you think the writers chose these two words to try and convince Angel that he and Cordy were meant to be. Let's examine the definitions:

Moira: "Moira is the gut physical attraction between two larger than life souls."

Kye-rumption: "It's when two great heroes meet on the field of battle and recognize their mutual fate."
I think it's less about trying to convince Angel and more about trying to convince the audience. Cangel happened in a relatively short amount of time (Angel and Cordy were strictly platonic until suddenly they weren't) and the writers were trying to save time, so instead of slowly building up to Cangel in a natural and organic way, the writers were TELLING the audience that these two characters should be together rather than SHOWING why they should be together.

I think Cangel only happened because they wanted Angel to have a love interest but they couldn't use Buffy because of the different networks. A new specifically created character wouldn't fly with the audience so the writers needed a "big" character for Angel to fall in love with in order for it to at least be considered on the same "level" as Bangel (they failed miserably since Bangel was built up so well). Cordelia was really the only candidate that fits that criteria. Darla was dead so they couldn't use her, the only other two characters that were "big" enough names were Faith and Wesley. Wesley was never going to happen because Angel doesn't swing that way but Faith would've been an interesting choice.

However, the biggest problem with Cangel and Fangel is that neither Cordelia (when in character) or Faith would settle for being second best to Buffy. Angel's perfect happiness curse clause is the marker for a relationship involving him being the real deal. He lost his soul with Buffy because he had a moment of "perfect happiness" with her, he never lost his soul with Cordelia which means that he didn't have that moment of perfect happiness with her ergo he doesn't love Cordelia in the same way that he loved Buffy.
 

Mrs Gordo

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#16
the writers were TELLING the audience that these two characters should be together rather than SHOWING why they should be together.
I like this explanation. If that is true, do you think the writers purposefully made the parallels to Bangel so obvious? Or do you think it was just what they thought the audience wanted from Angel?

he never lost his soul with Cordelia which means that he didn't have that moment of perfect happiness with her ergo he doesn't love Cordelia in the same way that he loved Buffy.
Or did he? What about Awakening? It was a dream but she is the sex portion of the dream that drove him to lose his soul.

Side note: I was reading another forum and a user said that there was a review that came out during the show regarding DB/CC chemsitry:

"To paraphrase a TWOP review from a few years back, "Near by forrest fires were doused by their lack of spark""

I wonder if they got bad reviews from Cangel from the audience and if Skip's speech was just retconning/back pedaling by the writers. Kinda - no nevermind everyone abort abort abort.
 
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#17
I like this explanation. If that is true, do you think the writers purposefully made the parallels to Bangel so obvious? Or do you think it was just what they thought the audience wanted from Angel?
I think the writers wanted to put Cangel on the same level as Bangel but failed miserably in all aspects.

Or did he? What about Awakening? It was a dream but she is the sex portion of the dream that drove him to lose his soul.
Had the show been able to use Buffy, then I think it would've been Buffy we saw in that dream rather than Cordelia.
 
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#18
Buffy Summers or Cordelia Chase?
* blonde hair
* In one ep too short bangs
* lived in LA
* first apartment was crappy in a bad neighborhood
* first time having sex with a human, he only pretended to have feelings for her
* has visions/is a seer
* is part demon
* trains in martial arts
* works/best friends with a British male ex Watcher, a nerdy girl who is good with computers, and a male human without any superpowers
* felt the pain of everyone in town and it destabilized her
* left earth for another plane of existence
* came back to earth different
* a spell was done to get back the old her and it led to everyone temporarily losing their memories

Angel & Buffy or Angel & Cordy?
* helps plan her birthday party
* she finds him in an alt world and she's who he needed in order to be a hero
* possessed by ghost lovers
* sexualized Tai Chi/sparring
* napping on his bed
* holds her hand while she's sick in bed
* rescued slaves in a demon dimension
* he's jealous of her human boyfriend even though that's what he wants for her
* "should've gone to Vegas" storyline
* "If I lost you" talk right before sex, which she initiates, leading to his perfect happiness, and saying "Buffy?" right before losing his soul

Everything about Cangel is a ripoff.

Once the AtS writers decided on Cangel they were going to have it end with a gender reverse Becoming #2, with Angel having to kill Cordelia (who he was with until she went evil and became the season's Big Bad) to stop an apocalypse like Buffy had to kill Angel (who she was with until he went evil and became the season's Big Bad) to stop an apocalypse.
 
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Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
I feel like you and I need to start some sort of club...

Taaroko

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#19
I could be misinformed, but I thought the writers only did Angel/Cordy in the first place because the network put all this pressure on them to give Angel a love interest. I feel like if writers as talented as these had actually wanted to do Angel/Cordy, they would've been better at it. The way it does play out smacks of being very grudgingly written. And acted.
 

Mrs Gordo

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#20
I could be misinformed, but I thought the writers only did Angel/Cordy in the first place because the network put all this pressure on them to give Angel a love interest. I feel like if writers as talented as these had actually wanted to do Angel/Cordy, they would've been better at it. The way it does play out smacks of being very grudgingly written. And acted.
I have heard theories (probably unsubstantiated) that the writers intentionally wrote a crappy Cangel arc to stick it to the network execs. And I think @RomanticSoul said that Joss was against the Cangel story by Greenwalt was on board.
 
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