Mr Trick Does the Angel rewatch thingy

[Mr Trick]

My favorite part is when Cordy is on the phone talking to Willow. She thinks Harmony is a lesbian. I also love how infuriating Harmony is to Wesley. Lol. But you're right its really a story about Cordy. And I don't like him just buying her clothes at the end, either.

1. I don't mind Harmony the vampire. Sometimes she's over done. But for the most part she doesn't annoy me. She didn't do anything as a human so at least as a vamp she's funny.

2. No. Harmony is basically the same person that Cordy grew up with as friends. It makes sense that she couldn't kill her. Had Harmony the vampire been different than I think it would make it easier to stake her. You also gotta think, why Buffy never staked her.

3. Sort of. I get they did it to have another female character. But that one episode she has is pointless because season 5 is not about Harmony's growth as a character. And after that she just goes back to being her old self again. She's fine in small doses as Angel's secretary. But she wasn't necessary to the team. She even ends up betraying them in the end.

Guess the difference is that Buffy always saw Harmony as if you'll forgive the pun harmless Did Harmony ever actually kill anyone as a vampire I don't remember.

Good point. I think S5 is where they risked using Harmony too much. But I do remember enjoying her part in that season kinda. Of course if Cordy had played a bigger part in that season things might have been very different.

 

[Stoney]

We definitely hear that she did in Real Me...

HARMONY: Brad, guess someone was feeling guilty for standing me up in the tenth grade. (Admiring the unicorn)
BRAD: (to other vamps) I, I had to get her something. She sired me.
Peaches: (to Cyrus) Sire-whipped.
We see Mort adding the unicorn to a large collection of other unicorn statues sitting on a table.​

...and I don't think it is ever implied or stated, working at W&H aside, that she does otherwise. It is why I always find the way they write the gang as just finding her antics funny so bothersome personally.
 
Oh, and she is complaining about the chained boy's taste in HLOD and Buffy sees her/Spike attempting to take the guy out of the frat party. And of course she attacks and bites Willow earlier in the ep. There are probably other references/visuals I'm not thinking of too.

 

[Mr Trick]

We definitely hear that she did in Real Me...

HARMONY: Brad, guess someone was feeling guilty for standing me up in the tenth grade. (Admiring the unicorn)
BRAD: (to other vamps) I, I had to get her something. She sired me.
Peaches: (to Cyrus) Sire-whipped.
We see Mort adding the unicorn to a large collection of other unicorn statues sitting on a table.​

...and I don't think it is ever implied or stated, working at W&H aside, that she does otherwise. It is why I always find the way they write the gang as just finding her antics funny so bothersome personally.

True, but then I think if you question that then you also have to admit that Harmony is far from the worse offender in that area. Angel and Spike have done far worse. I think there is a certain kind of acceptence in the Buffyverse than vampires are just going to follow their instincts to survie. Then again actually going into business with one is a different matter.

 

[Stoney]

It isn't really about what degrees or accumulation of 'wrongs' the different vamps have done surely. We know Spike and Angel are said to be some of the worst of vamps, the scourge with Darla and Dru, but killing people is still killing people. Xander and then later Buffy with Riley openly laugh about Harmony having a gang in Real Me and it really bugs me because that involved siring people and possibly people Buffy knew too as Xander recognises Brad, the one we know she sired. It is just troublesome with Harmony because it is totally irrelevant to her story path that she is killing, even if it is accepted as instinct. Are any other soulless vamps out and about killing people given the same character treatment as if they are just comedy gold like Harmony is? It is primarily why I just don't like her character much.

 

[Mr Trick]

It isn't really about what degrees or accumulation of 'wrongs' the different vamps have done surely. We know Spike and Angel are said to be some of the worst of vamps, the scourge with Darla and Dru, but killing people is still killing people. Xander and then later Buffy with Riley openly laugh about Harmony having a gang in Real Me and it really bugs me because that involved siring people and possibly people Buffy knew too as Xander recognises Brad, the one we know she sired. It is just troublesome with Harmony because it is totally irrelevant to her story path that she is killing, even if it is accepted as instinct. Are any other soulless vamps out and about killing people given the same character treatment as if they are just comedy gold like Harmony is? It is primarily why I just don't like her character much.

I think you have a point that it was maybe a missed chance for the show(s) to do something darker and fresh with Harmony's character. The Scoobies and Riley laughing at Harmony as a vamp still doesn't bother me as much as you. So many normal people are killed over the course of both Buffy and Angel. Its impossible within the limits of 42 mins of television when there are other big plots going on to regester the loss of everyone. And I think in Buffy mostly, as a way of dealing with darkness the Scoobies do invoke some humour. I like that side of the show and it does have a logic which is consistent within the universe.

 

[Guy]

It isn't really about what degrees or accumulation of 'wrongs' the different vamps have done surely. We know Spike and Angel are said to be some of the worst of vamps, the scourge with Darla and Dru, but killing people is still killing people. Xander and then later Buffy with Riley openly laugh about Harmony having a gang in Real Me and it really bugs me because that involved siring people and possibly people Buffy knew too as Xander recognises Brad, the one we know she sired. It is just troublesome with Harmony because it is totally irrelevant to her story path that she is killing, even if it is accepted as instinct. Are any other soulless vamps out and about killing people given the same character treatment as if they are just comedy gold like Harmony is? It is primarily why I just don't like her character much.

'Buffy' and 'Angel' (the shows) always had an arbitrary approach to what they take seriously and what they treat as comedy material. In 'Welcome to the Hellmout', when Buffy discovers the body of a dead student, she reacts as if she found a trash bag she forgot to throw out, but when she sees that Jesse was turned into a vampire she takes it seriously - probably because he was friends with Xander, who she accepted as a friend recently.

I think the scoobies (and especially Buffy) just tend to not take things too seriously unless it affects them and/or their friends directly. Which is typical teen behaviour. Buffy still tries to save people she doesn't know, simply because it's the right thing to do, but she doesn't take it to heart unless it affects her or her friends.

That's the entire point of season 7 - the scoobies confront their own hypocrisy. 7x01 begins by showing us a girl we don't know, getting hunted and killed, and Buffy isn't there to save her. Later that same episode, we see Buffy confronted by the ghosts/zombies of the people she DIDN'T save. In 7x20, Buffy said that she knew that some of the potentials will die, so she didn't want to let them get close to her emotionally. She didn't WANT to mourn them like she mourned Jenny and Angel and Joyce and Tara. And she eventually realized that she can't keep treating her family as more important than everyone else. And that's why season 7 ends with Buffy fighting in the hellmouth with the potentials that she barely knows, and not with the scoobies as usual. And when the potentials die in the battle, we see that Buffy mourns for them:

Season 7 makes Buffy realize that her family isn't more important than the rest of humanity.

As for Harmony... Well, I just think she's really funny and adorable. The scoobies don't go out of their way to stake her, because:

a) As vampires go, she's really not that dangerous.
b) They know her pretty well, so at least subconsciously, they don't really want to kill her.

But technically, you're right, they should have killed her ass long ago. And that hypocrisy was dealt with in season 7. In the comics, the scoobies have legitimate reasons for why they're not killing Harmony.

 

[Mr Trick]

'Buffy' and 'Angel' (the shows) always had an arbitrary approach to what they take seriously and what they treat as comedy material. In 'Welcome to the Hellmout', when Buffy discovers the body of a dead student, she reacts as if she found a trash bag she forgot to throw out, but when she sees that Jesse was turned into a vampire she takes it seriously - probably because he was friends with Xander, who she accepted as a friend recently.

I think the scoobies (and especially Buffy) just tend to not take things too seriously unless it affects them and/or their friends directly. Which is typical teen behaviour. Buffy still tries to save people she doesn't know, simply because it's the right thing to do, but she doesn't take it to heart unless it affects her or her friends.

That's the entire point of season 7 - the scoobies confront their own hypocrisy. 7x01 begins by showing us a girl we don't know, getting hunted and killed, and Buffy isn't there to save her. Later that same episode, we see Buffy confronted by the ghosts/zombies of the people she DIDN'T save. In 7x20, Buffy said that she knew that some of the potentials will die, so she didn't want to let them get close to her emotionally. She didn't WANT to mourn them like she mourned Jenny and Angel and Joyce and Tara. And she eventually realized that she can't keep treating her family as more important than everyone else. And that's why season 7 ends with Buffy fighting in the hellmouth with the potentials that she barely knows, and not with the scoobies as usual. And when the potentials die in the battle, we see that Buffy mourns for them:

Season 7 makes Buffy realize that her family isn't more important than the rest of humanity.

As for Harmony... Well, I just think she's really funny and adorable. The scoobies don't go out of their way to stake her, because:

a) As vampires go, she's really not that dangerous.
b) They know her pretty well, so at least subconsciously, they don't really want to kill her.

But technically, you're right, they should have killed her ass long ago. And that hypocrisy was dealt with in season 7. In the comics, the scoobies have legitimate reasons for why they're not killing Harmony.

Don't remember Buffy taking any death casually during WTTH. Think you are right on the difference with it being Jesse. But then that is consistent with people in real life. Yes we treat death as a shocking and bad thing, but its always going to be worse for us if its someone we know. As for not taking death to heart I think its more to do with Buffy's role as a slayer meaning she can't take death to heart because if she did she wouldn't be able to perform her duties. Think it matters more to Buffy than you are giving her credit for. That maybe more what I'm getting from SMG's performance than what's in the text of course. As a show I think Buffy deals in the consuqences of death more than Angel does.

 

[Guy]

Don't remember Buffy taking any death casually during WTTH. Think you are right on the difference with it being Jesse. But then that is consistent with people in real life. Yes we treat death as a shocking and bad thing, but its always going to be worse for us if its someone we know. As for not taking death to heart I think its more to do with Buffy's role as a slayer meaning she can't take death to heart because if she did she wouldn't be able to perform her duties. Think it matters more to Buffy than you are giving her credit for. That maybe more what I'm getting from SMG's performance than what's in the text of course. As a show I think Buffy deals in the consuqences of death more than Angel does.

From the script:

CUT TO:
INT. WOMEN’S LOCKER ROOM – CONTINUOUS

Buffy approaches the body laid out under a blanket.

She hesitates, sure she’s not going to like what she sees. Pulls the blanket from his head and shoulders.

ANGLE: HIS NECK

Has two big ol’ bite marks in it.

What floods onto Buffy’s face is not horror, but grim frustration. She stares down at the body, nearly seething.



BUFFY
Oh, great!
CUT TO:
INT. LIBRARY – MOMENTS LATER

Buffy strides back in, attitude high.



BUFFY
Okay, what’s the sitch?

So, Buffy doesn't seem to be emotionally disturbed by the death at all. She's just annoyed that her slayer-ness is interfering with her normal life again.

I agree that Buffy deals with the consequences of death more than Angel does (hello, 'The Body'). I think that the show is just trying to help us identify with Buffy - as the audience, we aren't emotionally affected by the death of some characters we know nothing about, so if Buffy isn't affected too, we relate to her more.
In the long run, of course, this raises moral questions about Buffy, and so the later seasons of the show deal with these questions.

 

[Stoney]

And I think in Buffy mostly, as a way of dealing with darkness the Scoobies do invoke some humour. I like that side of the show and it does have a logic which is consistent within the universe.

Oh so do I most of the time, Harmony's character treatment is a distinct and separate dislike from all the other occasions for me.

I think the quote that @Guy gives about Buffy in WTTH is actually a great example of the way the show can be dark in humour with Buffy's annoyance that her attempt to escape being the slayer is doomed to fail as a blatant vamp victim is found. But I agree that she isn't unaffected by the deaths of those outside of her family/friends, the immediate unit and her compassion is a big part of who she is. I think her capacity to care about the wider world and everyone in it is part of what makes her heroic. She has always seems to carry such heavy guilt at times she feels she has failed.

That's the entire point of season 7 - the scoobies confront their own hypocrisy. 7x01 begins by showing us a girl we don't know, getting hunted and killed, and Buffy isn't there to save her. Later that same episode, we see Buffy confronted by the ghosts/zombies of the people she DIDN'T save. In 7x20, Buffy said that she knew that some of the potentials will die, so she didn't want to let them get close to her emotionally. She didn't WANT to mourn them like she mourned Jenny and Angel and Joyce and Tara. And she eventually realized that she can't keep treating her family as more important than everyone else... Season 7 makes Buffy realize that her family isn't more important than the rest of humanity.

I never took that from S7 at all. I felt that S7 had Buffy trying to harden herself for the fight, trying to develop as a leader and learning and accepting that she couldn't save everyone. Of course that leads into her choice to empower all the potentials with their own inner strength and those themes of self awareness and power, of the 'potential' people have, are front and centre throughout for many of the characters. Trying to not 'know' the potentials was just self-preservation exactly because she cares so much about people, no? :s

As for Harmony... Well, I just think she's really funny and adorable. The scoobies don't go out of their way to stake her, because:

a) As vampires go, she's really not that dangerous.

Ha, tell that to Brad! I really don't think there is any reason to think that she isn't average level of dangerous as a vamp tbh. It is just that the show has decided that we shouldn't care about anything that she gets up to so that she can be used as comedy relief and it bugs me. I know I'm in the minority, but there it is.

b) They know her pretty well, so at least subconsciously, they don't really want to kill her.

But technically, you're right, they should have killed her ass long ago. And that hypocrisy was dealt with in season 7. In the comics, the scoobies have legitimate reasons for why they're not killing Harmony.

I am sure that knowing someone pre-vamping does greatly affect how people feel and I always reason that that is the root of the Council's false line about the vamp and the human being totally separate. Something the show confirms in every single instance, of course, is simply not true. But you repeat it as the Watcher because your slayer will find it harder to dust someone they loved, and even someone they just knew. But that is a whole step away from just finding them funny regardless of anything they do. And I still think they should dust her now in the comics too as she has yet again, predictably and tediously imo, shown this past season that they can't and shouldn't give her leniency because she will betray them for selfish personal gain and allowing her any easier access to them all is daft. Just because she is foolish doesn't make her harmless. Gah, she really, really, really should be dust in the wind and I was far from pleased, although not at all surprised, by the promise of her popping up in S11. Oh hoorah! Definitely an agree to disagree one, ha.

 

[Mr Trick]

Great discussion guys! I do wonder besides Brad that Harmony killed as a habit. I think its assumed that most vampires will kill to keep going but of course if you have a routine like Angel does with the fresh supplie of blood then it is possible to live without killing. I get the impression that Harmony might have done something similiar.

 

[Guy]

I never took that from S7 at all. I felt that S7 had Buffy trying to harden herself for the fight, trying to develop as a leader and learning and accepting that she couldn't save everyone. Of course that leads into her choice to empower all the potentials with their own inner strength and those themes of self awareness and power, of the 'potential' people have, are front and centre throughout for many of the characters. Trying to not 'know' the potentials was just self-preservation exactly because she cares so much about people, no? :s

I think that is one of the biggest themes of season 7 - that the world is bigger than us and our families, and that a person we just met is just as important as our best friend. Or, in other words - humanism. Season 7 really tried to make the story feel BIGGER, and to make it more than just a personal story about Buffy and her friends: instead of being limited to Sunnydale, we started getting scenes from across the world, from England, Istanbul, Japan, Germany, etc. The entire point of the potentials was to force Buffy to work with people who AREN'T her family and friends. They say that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult realizes that "this isn't about me". Season 7 was about exactly that (among other things, of course) - Buffy realized that she's a part of a bigger world (part of a "chain", as season 8 would call it), and that she and her friends and her family aren't more important than any random stranger. That's why the empowerment spell showed people being empowered throughou the world, and not just Buffy's friends. That's why season 7 broke Buffy's family in 'Empty Places' - because when you have no family, you realize that you're a part of humanity.

Ha, tell that to Brad!

Brad bullied Xander in highschool. Off with his head!

I really don't think there is any reason to think that she isn't average level of dangerous as a vamp tbh. It is just that the show has decided that we shouldn't care about anything that she gets up to so that she can be used as comedy relief and it bugs me. I know I'm in the minority, but there it is.

Well, yes. The real reason is that the writers loved her as comic relief, so they kept her alive. It's the same reason that Drusilla wasn't killed. I'm cool with it, because Harmony is hilarious and sympathetic to me.

I am sure that knowing someone pre-vamping does greatly affect how people feel and I always reason that that is the root of the Council's false line about the vamp and the human being totally separate. Something the show confirms in every single instance, of course, is simply not true. But you repeat it as the Watcher because your slayer will find it harder to dust someone they loved, and even someone they just knew. But that is a whole step away from just finding them funny regardless of anything they do. And I still think they should dust her now in the comics too as she has yet again, predictably and tediously imo, shown this past season that they can't and shouldn't give her leniency because she will betray them for selfish personal gain and allowing her any easier access to them all is daft. Just because she is foolish doesn't make her harmless. Gah, she really, really, really should be dust in the wind and I was far from pleased, although not at all surprised, by the promise of her popping up in S11. Oh hoorah! Definitely an agree to disagree one, ha.

I don't think anyone TRUSTS her, but they can't kill her, because she's the figurehead of the new vampire rules. If they stake her, vampires would become much more dangerous. It's politics.

 

[Stoney]

Great discussion guys! I do wonder besides Brad that Harmony killed as a habit. I think its assumed that most vampires will kill to keep going but of course if you have a routine like Angel does with the fresh supplie of blood then it is possible to live without killing. I get the impression that Harmony might have done something similiar.

Yeah, possibly if it suited her like when she wanted the role at W&H, but only until it didn't. Despite the whole vamps in public thing where most play along what the show repeatedly showed us, and Harmony herself has done so more consistently than any other regular vamp, is that soulless vamps are unreliable and can/will eventually make choices with self interest at the fore. It is why the vamps in public aspect is frustrating and her as a figure head is comical, and of course not everyone plays by Harmony's rules. Whilst I take your point that there are politics at play @Guy Harmony is still replaceable for those wanting to play along for whatever benefits they deem it currently worthwhile for themselves and her betrayal over the book could fairly be seen to be breaking the role she has with those she attacked. I don't think vampires would become any more dangerous if she was dusted as you can't/shouldn't be trusting any of them anyway.

 

[Guy]

Yeah, possibly if it suited her like when she wanted the role at W&H, but only until it didn't. Despite the whole vamps in public thing where most play along what the show repeatedly showed us, and Harmony herself has done so more consistently than any other regular vamp, is that soulless vamps are unreliable and can/will eventually make choices with self interest at the fore. It is why the vamps in public aspect is frustrating and her as a figure head is comical, and of course not everyone plays by Harmony's rules. Whilst I take your point that there are politics at play @Guy Harmony is still replaceable for those wanting to play along for whatever benefits they deem it currently worthwhile for themselves and her betrayal over the book could fairly be seen to be breaking the role she has with those she attacked. I don't think vampires would become any more dangerous if she was dusted as you can't/shouldn't be trusting any of them anyway.

Well, maybe she could be replaced, but that could get messy in all sorts of ways, and the scoobies aren't big on risks.

Mostly, though, I just try not to overthink that aspect. Harmony and the whole "vampires in public" thing was introduced mostly as a parody on reality shows, and it's best not to try and overanalyze it.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Guess the difference is that Buffy always saw Harmony as if you'll forgive the pun harmless Did Harmony ever actually kill anyone as a vampire I don't.

Yes that's sort of the same reason they keep Spike around. They are not harmless. Harmony kidnaps Dawn!

Buffy with Riley openly laugh about Harmony having a gang

I don't like it either. Why is Riley laughing? Does he even know Harmony?

so that she can be used as comedy relief and it bugs me. I know I'm in the minority

I don't like it either. It's something that bothers me about the latter seasons. Vampires are treated as either a joke, a romance interest, or just non threatening. Even the Turok Han which started out cool became weak.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I don't like it either. Why is Riley laughing? Does he even know Harmony?

I always hated that scene. Riley laughing about a vamp? I kinda understand why Buffy would, but the laughter is so fake.

I don't like it either. It's something that bothers me about the latter seasons. Vampires are treated as either a joke, a romance interest, or just non threatening. Even the Turok Han which started out cool became weak.

Yeah. And, in my opinion, Spike insisting with Buffy that she needed some monster in her man made it seem like Buffy could only date vamps - not true at all. Bangel was about forbidden love, it was made clear that Buffy shouldn't date vampires and Xander never warmed up to Angel and Giles later on too. In the later seasons, all the characters get cuddly with Spike and Buffy spends more time in season 6 having sex with a vamp than staking one.
One of the reasons Chosen upsets me is because of how easily the newly turned slayers just killed the uber vamps - they didn't even have the powerful slayer ax to help them!

 

[Guy]

I always hated that scene. Riley laughing about a vamp? I kinda understand why Buffy would, but the laughter is so fake.

I think Riley was laughing because Buffy was laughing. You know, infectious laughter.

And, in my opinion, Spike insisting with Buffy that she needed some monster in her man made it seem like Buffy could only date vamps - not true at all.

I don't think the show ever implies that Spike is right about that.

In the later seasons, all the characters get cuddly with Spike and Buffy spends more time in season 6 having sex with a vamp than staking one.

1) The characters do NOT get cuddly with Spike (with the exception of Buffy, of course). Spike was never accepted as one of them. Xander always hated him, Giles hated him (or at least disliked him), Dawn hated him after 'Seeing Red', and Willow barely interacted with him in the later seasons.
2) Buffy got cuddly with Spike in the later seasons, sure, but she got cuddly with Angel in the early seasons, so... It's not really a change.

One of the reasons Chosen upsets me is because of how easily the newly turned slayers just killed the uber vamps - they didn't even have the powerful slayer ax to help them!

Well, they were NEAR the scythe during the fight, so maybe that's empowering them too. And I always saw the original Uber-vamp (the one from 7x09) as a special uber-vamp, like a champion of the uber-vamps or something. The rest of the ubervamps always seemed like regular vampires in terms of strength.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I think Riley was laughing because Buffy was laughing. You know, infectious laughter.

That makes sense.

I don't think the show ever implies that Spike is right about that.

Well, it practically causes the downfall of Buffy/Riley. That and Dawn telling Riley that Buffy used to cry a lot over Angel are a few things that seemingly drive him to the vamp whore house. And to me, the way Chosen and more so Angel season 5 suggest that Buffy will end up with either Angel or Spike sort of makes the point I was getting at earlier. Angel started out to be the guy Buffy couldn't have, because he was a vamp, and now look at her: dating Spike as if he isn't one also.

1) The characters do NOT get cuddly with Spike (with the exception of Buffy, of course). Spike was never accepted as one of them. Xander always hated him, Giles hated him (or at least disliked him), Dawn hated him after 'Seeing Red', and Willow barely interacted with him in the later seasons.
2) Buffy got cuddly with Spike in the later seasons, sure, but she got cuddly with Angel in the early seasons, so... It's not really a change.

1) Spike was slowly integrated into the group. Willow didn't think Spike was much of a threat - she even stopped him from committing suicide in season 4; Dawn liked Spike until the rape thing (for pretty much two whole seasons he was a trusted friend); Tara even told Buffy that Spike "did love her"; Giles was indifferent mostly; Anya liked Spike and Xander was the one who didn't. I'd say they grew comfortable with his presence, to the point of entrusting Dawn's care to him after "The Gift" (they didn't need Buffy to be there to trust him). That's pretty "cuddly" imo.
2) Angel helped Buffy and the Scoobies from episode 1. Until Innocence he was always the good guy. After season 2, Buffy loved him so she forgave him, but initially tried not to see him anymore and kept him from the Scoobies who were all unhappy Angel was back. After Angel saves Willow, and because they care about Buffy, they start to let him in the group, but never really trust him. And Angel with a soul proved time and time again he was good, unlike Spike. Being cuddly with a person who's good to you, makes you feel safe, whom you trust and love, is different from being cuddly with a person who's abusive, who you're abusive too, who's untrustworthy, etc. I also like to point out that while Angel was soulless she wasn't cuddly to him - she was cuddly to her loving boyfriend who happened to be a vamp. And she spent a lot of time those early seasons killing vamps, including Angel when she had to, something she failed to do with Spike in season 7.

Well, they were NEAR the scythe during the fight, so maybe that's empowering them too. And I always saw the original Uber-vamp (the one from 7x09) as a special uber-vamp, like a champion of the uber-vamps or something. The rest of the ubervamps always seemed like regular vampires in terms of strength.

That's doubtful. Faith only felt the scythe power when she held it in her hand. I don't think it works remotely. To me the first uber vamp was just like the others and even if the others were more like normal vamps, those girls slayed them far too easily.
Chosen is a little like the Gift in terms of resolution. Spike gets an amulet from Angel who gets it from an evil law firm, wears it, without knowing what it would do, and saves the world. The slayers kill a handful of vamps and he kills thousands. What were the slayers and the scythe for anyway? Or Buffy for that matter? In the Gift, after an entire season of not being able to defeat Glory in the slightest, a robot, a wrecking ball and a hammer (that only Buffy is strong enough to lift for some reason) reduce Glory to a bloody mess. Unfortunately, Spike can't dodge a slow moving tongue and, fortunately, Buffy's blood works as a substitute for Dawn's (keyness included). Makes no sense.

 

[Guy]

Well, it practically causes the downfall of Buffy/Riley. That and Dawn telling Riley that Buffy used to cry a lot over Angel are a few things that seemingly drive him to the vamp whore house.

That doesn't mean that Spike was right, just that Riley was insecure and Buffy was preoccupied with her family and her slayer duties. Buffy never broke up with Riley.

And to me, the way Chosen and more so Angel season 5 suggest that Buffy will end up with either Angel or Spike sort of makes the point I was getting at earlier. Angel started out to be the guy Buffy couldn't have, because he was a vamp, and now look at her: dating Spike as if he isn't one also.

1) Angel season 5 never even featured Buffy, just Andrew fooling Angel and Spike and making fun of them. Buffy never dated the immortal according to the comics. And 'Chosen' doesn't imply that she will end up with either Spike or Angel, it says outright that Buffy doesn't feel ready for that choice, and that's it.
2) Spike isn't exactly the same as Angel, because he doesn't have the gypsy curse thing. Angel literally CAN'T be allowed to be in a happy relationship, because it might turn him evil. Spike has less problems of that kind.

Willow didn't think Spike was much of a threat - she even stopped him from committing suicide in season 4

Occasionally, she's callous and strange.

Dawn liked Spike until the rape thing (for pretty much two whole seasons he was a trusted friend)

Dawn is the Joyce of the later seasons, and Joyce liked Spike in the early seasons too, so it's not any different.

Tara even told Buffy that Spike "did love her"

What does that have to do with "accepting Spike into the group"? Tara was still never friendly with Spike.

Giles was indifferent mostly

GILES TRIED TO KILL HIM! And he was never friendly with him even before that.

Anya liked Spike

Well, she was a former demon.

and Xander was the one who didn't.

Xander, and Willow, and Giles, and Tara...

I'd say they grew comfortable with his presence, to the point of entrusting Dawn's care to him after "The Gift" (they didn't need Buffy to be there to trust him). That's pretty "cuddly" imo.

They worked with him, because he was useful and willing and because he was physically incapable of hurting them. They were never friendly with him.

2) Angel helped Buffy and the Scoobies from episode 1. Until Innocence he was always the good guy. After season 2, Buffy loved him so she forgave him, but initially tried not to see him anymore and kept him from the Scoobies who were all unhappy Angel was back. After Angel saves Willow, and because they care about Buffy, they start to let him in the group, but never really trust him. And Angel with a soul proved time and time again he was good, unlike Spike. Being cuddly with a person who's good to you, makes you feel safe, whom you trust and love, is different from being cuddly with a person who's abusive, who you're abusive too, who's untrustworthy, etc. I also like to point out that while Angel was soulless she wasn't cuddly to him - she was cuddly to her loving boyfriend who happened to be a vamp.

Buffy had a romantic relationship with a vampire in seasons 1-3, and she had a romantic relationship with a vampire in seasons 5-7. I don't see the distinction. Angel had a lot of reasons to be mistrusted too.

And she spent a lot of time those early seasons killing vamps, including Angel when she had to, something she failed to do with Spike in season 7.

She killed Angel because she had to, to save the world. She didn't kill Spike in season 7 because she was never in a similiar situation with him.

That's doubtful. Faith only felt the scythe power when she held it in her hand. I don't think it works remotely. To me the first uber vamp was just like the others and even if the others were more like normal vamps, those girls slayed them far too easily.
Chosen is a little like the Gift in terms of resolution. Spike gets an amulet from Angel who gets it from an evil law firm, wears it, without knowing what it would do, and saves the world. The slayers kill a handful of vamps and he kills thousands. What were the slayers and the scythe for anyway? Or Buffy for that matter? In the Gift, after an entire season of not being able to defeat Glory in the slightest, a robot, a wrecking ball and a hammer (that only Buffy is strong enough to lift for some reason) reduce Glory to a bloody mess. Unfortunately, Spike can't dodge a slow moving tongue and, fortunately, Buffy's blood works as a substitute for Dawn's (keyness included). Makes no sense.

Well, 'Buffy' was never that good on the plot elements, it was always more character-driven than plot-driven. Remember 'Prophecy Girl', when the master inexplicably lost the ability to mind-control Buffy after she died and was resurrected?

 

[Mr Trick]

Yes that's sort of the same reason they keep Spike around. They are not harmless. Harmony kidnaps Dawn!

I don't like it either. Why is Riley laughing? Does he even know Harmony?

I don't like it either. It's something that bothers me about the latter seasons. Vampires are treated as either a joke, a romance interest, or just non threatening. Even the Turok Han which started out cool became weak.

Good point and one I was going to make. That's why for me the Harmony storyline works well in Real Me. And Buffy and co. were joking around before they knew about Dawn being kidnapped lets not forget.

That makes sense.



Well, it practically causes the downfall of Buffy/Riley. That and Dawn telling Riley that Buffy used to cry a lot over Angel are a few things that seemingly drive him to the vamp whore house. And to me, the way Chosen and more so Angel season 5 suggest that Buffy will end up with either Angel or Spike sort of makes the point I was getting at earlier. Angel started out to be the guy Buffy couldn't have, because he was a vamp, and now look at her: dating Spike as if he isn't one also.



1) Spike was slowly integrated into the group. Willow didn't think Spike was much of a threat - she even stopped him from committing suicide in season 4; Dawn liked Spike until the rape thing (for pretty much two whole seasons he was a trusted friend); Tara even told Buffy that Spike "did love her"; Giles was indifferent mostly; Anya liked Spike and Xander was the one who didn't. I'd say they grew comfortable with his presence, to the point of entrusting Dawn's care to him after "The Gift" (they didn't need Buffy to be there to trust him). That's pretty "cuddly" imo.
2) Angel helped Buffy and the Scoobies from episode 1. Until Innocence he was always the good guy. After season 2, Buffy loved him so she forgave him, but initially tried not to see him anymore and kept him from the Scoobies who were all unhappy Angel was back. After Angel saves Willow, and because they care about Buffy, they start to let him in the group, but never really trust him. And Angel with a soul proved time and time again he was good, unlike Spike. Being cuddly with a person who's good to you, makes you feel safe, whom you trust and love, is different from being cuddly with a person who's abusive, who you're abusive too, who's untrustworthy, etc. I also like to point out that while Angel was soulless she wasn't cuddly to him - she was cuddly to her loving boyfriend who happened to be a vamp. And she spent a lot of time those early seasons killing vamps, including Angel when she had to, something she failed to do with Spike in season 7.



That's doubtful. Faith only felt the scythe power when she held it in her hand. I don't think it works remotely. To me the first uber vamp was just like the others and even if the others were more like normal vamps, those girls slayed them far too easily.
Chosen is a little like the Gift in terms of resolution. Spike gets an amulet from Angel who gets it from an evil law firm, wears it, without knowing what it would do, and saves the world. The slayers kill a handful of vamps and he kills thousands. What were the slayers and the scythe for anyway? Or Buffy for that matter? In the Gift, after an entire season of not being able to defeat Glory in the slightest, a robot, a wrecking ball and a hammer (that only Buffy is strong enough to lift for some reason) reduce Glory to a bloody mess. Unfortunately, Spike can't dodge a slow moving tongue and, fortunately, Buffy's blood works as a substitute for Dawn's (keyness included). Makes no sense.

Excately slowly. Spike's full transformation into member of the good team and even into Buffy's heart is a slow burning thing. Its not like he gets the chip and is suddenly a good guy. There are stages to his growth. One reason why Dawn liked him I think was down to her young age and naivety and because Spike had looked out for her at a rough time for her. Also I don't see the problem with the blurring of the lines of good and evil its part of what makes both shows so interesting. Spike's switch to the good side and romance with the Slayer is a bold and subversive story. I don't get why people would rather toss those stories away for more black and white ones. The Willow-Spike scenes are perfect examples the subversive nature of the show and the surreal humour too.

Back to the comedy scene with them laughing at Harmony in Real Me. I'm not saying the scene works or is funny, but that still doesn't mean they shouldn't laugh at Harmony or that it matters. Don't forget their not laughing at the fact she is a vampire, rather that she is attempting to act tough and has so called minions

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Harmony or that it matters. Don't forget their not laughing at the fact she is a vampire, rather that she is attempting to act tough and has so called minions

yes, an evil vampire with a group of other evil vampires is hilarious. I get why she laughing, she thinks it's ridiculous that Harmony would have minions, and that she is incompetent. But it's not that far fetched, in high school Harmony had the mean girl click that kicked out Cordy. I just think soulless vampires should have always been treated as a serious threat.

were joking around before they knew about Dawn being kidnapped lets not forget.

she still didn't kill her! She just let's Harmony go for the rest of season 5!