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No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

DeadlyDuo

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Where was it said that Spike can't be a man because he has no soul? Where was it mentioned in all his ramblings when he wasn't talking about the chip? Besides if he went there to get a soul, for Buffy as he insists in S7, why did he sound so vengeful when he said 'bitch is gonna see a change'?
He had his whole "Can't be a monster, can't be a man" line. I don't remember the whole quote but the way I interpret that was he couldn't be a man because he was a vampire and had no soul and therefore wasn't "human" enough but he couldn't give into to his vampiric nature and be a monster either because of the chip. Spike felt he was caught between the two worlds but couldn't belong to either. He was too monster to be a man and too man to be a monster. As for the "bitch is gonna see a change" line, Spike was worked up and agitated which is why the line came across as it did.

I don't need things to be plainly stated to understand. It's called subtext for a reason.
I think things like that do need to be stated more plainly rather than left open to interpretation. Because it was left open to interpretation, neither of us are wrong in how we interpret that line. The whole Buffy/Faith attraction idea was based on subtext, eg the chemistry between the two characters, but it never became an actual thing on the show so that's been left open to interpretation.

You know what a metaphor is right? The scene was a metaphor for a college rape (since vampire biting is sometimes associated with sex) where eventually the attacker can't perform. Even if I leave that scene aside why are you ignoring 'Lover's Walk' where the rape implications were made clear by Spike. When you are holding a woman hostage, start stroking her hair and tell her it's been a while since you had a woman...well even an idiot would get the meaning.
The scene might have been a metaphor for rape but that was never Spike's intention. The character didn't go there to rape Willow, he went there to kill and possibly turn Willow.

The "Lovers Walk" scene was more a drunken pass than an implication of rape. Willow said stop and Spike stopped.

Quite frankly I don't see why there would be a vampire who doesn't rape. What would hold them back? They don't have a soul so they have no conscience which is what would hold back most humans from ever committing such a crime. If they want something they take it. Barring consequences that would get them killed there is nothing holding them back.
You're right on this point in the general sense that there isn't anything holding a vampire back but not every vampire is the same. That's like saying why doesn't every vampire take their time to torture their villains like Angelus or why don't all vampires just kill their victims quickly unlike Angelus who took his time? You can't lump every individual into one group just because they have something in common.
 

Bluebird

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I do think there's a blinkered view when it comes to Spuffy as a relationship. It's hard to see any good in it, for me anyway. I do like Spike and even enjoyed his arc, but to me there's no excuses for what he is. Soulless Spike can't be defended, and rightly so since he's a vampire. I don't have to excuse his behaviour to enjoy the character - he is evil after all. But I don't understand why fans go to such lengths to excuse his very existence as a vampire. He must be one of the most noble vampires without a soul in the entire verse, if he is so shocked to realise what he was doing during the AR, and if he's never raped anyone ever.

Can people not enjoy the character if he has done evil? You don't have to apply your own morals to a character to excuse them, to like them. It is fictional fantasy after all.
 
The Bronze
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Exactly my take on it. Enjoy Spike for what he is, evil entertainment.

Buffy Summers

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Just want to remind everyone, let's discuss the show without making it personal. Everyone's view points are different, and that's okay, but implying or outright stating that someone is basically a bad person because of their views is not acceptable. Let's keep it about the arguments, not about the posters. Thanks :)
 

RomanticSoul

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The "Lovers Walk" scene was more a drunken pass than an implication of rape. Willow said stop and Spike stopped.
He only stopped (for the moment) because she got his rape implication, freaked the hell out and went on the offensive. Socially inept, inexperienced Willow understood what he was threatenig her with. Why can't you?
 

DeadlyDuo

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He only stopped (for the moment) because she got his rape implication, freaked the hell out and went on the offensive. Socially inept, inexperienced Willow understood what he was threatenig her with. Why can't you?
Spike implied the idea of having sex with Willow which is then when Willow freaked out and told Spike it wasn't happening and Spike backed off from that idea. If Spike had implied that he was going to rape Willow, then why would it matter if Willow said no ? The fact that Spike stopped when Willow says no suggests he wasn't implying he was going to rape her.

Also his line "I haven't had a woman in weeks....unless you count that shopkeeper" could imply that Spike is actually thinking more on the feeding side of things because we saw him kill and feed from the female shopkeeper. This implication could also be supported by the fact that, when he was crying on Willow's shoulder, he caught her scent and said "that smell, your neck". We all know where vampires tend to bite their victims. Also in the season 4 scene where Spike is having troubles biting Willow and it is played as a metaphor for impotence, Willow says something along the lines of she's not attractive enough to bite (I can't remember the exact line but it something like "It's me isn't it? You came here looking for Buffy and found me instead so you settled") and Spike reassures her that she 's perfectly biteable and that he would if he could, and he actually brings up the Lovers' Walk incident saying he thought about biting her then.
 

The Ferg

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I have a lot of problem with this post. The "trigger warning" made me want to not read it altogether, but I think I'll try and take a stab at refuting some of these arguments.

Season 6 of BtVS is, quite frankly, an absolute mess. The inertia of Buffy’s depression makes it an incredibly slow and heavy season and when her horrendous relationship with Spike is added into the mix, it become almost unbearable to watch. What makes this even worse, is the rampant victim blaming laid at Buffy’s feet, which can (somewhat) be blamed on the narrative. The show makes it very clear that we are supposed to believe – in some part – that Buffy is responsible for Spike’s treatment of her, which is just ridiculously vile, not to mention irresponsible. The show constantly has Spike telling Buffy off for coming to him, using him, etc., and Season 7 even has Buffy agreeing with Spike.
Ok, first of all, Season 6 has it's problems, but I would not use the words 'absolute mess.' It does a lot of things right... On the surface-level you've got the amazing OMWF, the hilarious Tabula Rasa, the legitimately horrifying Normal Again, a few fun one-offs with Doublemeat Palace and Older and Faraway, a fantastic and epic season finale mega-arc, a unique set of Big Bads, a death that no one will ever forget, and whether you like it or not, the origin of Spuffy.
On the metaphor side we have Willow's enormous screw-up, living and learning from it, and figuring out how to move on, Buffy's depression, living as an adult, making decisions without your parents; being in an abusive relationship, and moving from blaming yourself to loving yourself and the world around you. That's the part I think you don't get. Regardless of whether you or I think that Buffy deserves to be treated or looked at as being victim-blamed, Buffy feels that way. She believes that it was her fault, and watching her come out of that hole of self-blame is cathartic and honestly kind of beautiful.
Oh, and here's the other thing... It partly was Buffy's fault!

It’s bad enough how much Spike victimises Buffy, but to then have her accept blame for said victimisation, when she literally did nothing to warrant it, sends a ridiculously messed up message which, unfortunately, parts of the fandom gobble up. The narrative tells us Buffy is responsible for her abuse at Spike’s hands and, instead of questioning why a show which prides itself on its feminist values is engaging in such blatant victim blaming, fans turn on Buffy, blame her for Spike’s abuse, and literally seem to believe that Buffy using Spike for sex warrants him beating her, raping her and emotionally abusing and manipulating her. It begs the question, why does a fandom which supposedly loves its main character so much, view her so badly. Well, in my mind, the answer is obvious. Because they love the male character more.
I don't think anyone thinks that Spike was in the right for attempting to rape Buffy. I also don't think anyone approves of the way he treated her. If a huge Spuffy fan might look past Spike's past it's probably just because he/she likes them as a couple, regardless of the trials and tribulations that got them there.
I'm sorry, but not blaming Buffy in the slightest is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, Spike's the evil one here, but Buffy knew exactly what she was getting into. She knew that having sex with a vampire was a bad idea. Once she broke it off, everything that happened afterwards was entirely Spike's fault, but Buffy did not make good decisions, and she knows it. Calling her out =/= blaming the victim.

Spike has always been one of the most popular Buffyverse characters, and this popularity appears to blind the fandom to his faults and mistreatment of Buffy or, at the very least, convinces them that what Spike did wasn’t actually all that bad and that Buffy probably deserved it. Trust me, I get it, when your favourite character eff’s up so badly, it’s very easy to get defensive over their actions or try to justify them in some way. But if doing so involves victim blaming, engaging in rape culture and displaying such a deep level of misogyny, I can’t help but feel that maybe fans should be reassessing their defence of Spike, especially since what Spike puts Buffy through in Season 6 is plainly and inarguably domestic violence, for which there is no excuse. At some point in time, the audience needs to look at the narrative we’re being told to believe, and the one actually unfolding onscreen.
You are misinterpreting and assuming that the show wants you to think that it was Buffy's fault, and Spike had nothing to be blamed for. I don't remember ever feeling that way and I've watched Season 6 like 10 times. Spike isn't my favorite character or anything, but his actions, while often disgusting, are exactly what you would expect out of the character, seeing as he's a vampire without a soul and all.

Over the course of Season 6, Spike emotionally abuses, physically beats and sexually assaults Buffy (including raping her on at least one occasion) and, contrary to popular belief, she literally does nothing to warrant it. Does she go to Spike for sex? Yes. But if you want to use this as an argument for why she holds responsibility for any of the abuse Spike put her through, you might as well argue that any woman who is raped by a man she has previously consented to have sex with is asking for it, because, hey, she’s said yes before! This is the kind of thinking which kept marital rape from being recognised until the 80s.
It seems like you're obsessed with making Buffy the damsel in distress that did nothing wrong. Was Spike aggressive and manipulative? Sure, but the sex was a two-way street. Buffy chose to meet up with him (and de facto date him for a few episode, if we're being honest). Buffy wanted exactly what she got (besides the rape. Obviously not defending that). She knew exactly what she was getting into, and she just kept going back. I don't think people should look down on her. She was obviously going through some serious stuff, but at the end of the day, it was 100% her fault. She could've simply not gone to see him, but she just kept going back.

The other frequent argument I see is that Buffy had previously said “no” when she actually meant “yes”, which is gross and shows a vast misunderstanding of how consent works. If Buffy says no, then that means no. If she verbally tells Spike to stop, then Spike should stop. If she in any way indicates that she is not one hundred per cent consenting, then whatever happens afterwards is sexual assault. Now, I can’t fully blame the fandom for this, as it’s really the writers fault that Buffy’s “no’s” are viewed as “yes’s”. They wrote it as such, but we don’t have to buy into it. The fandom needs to educate themselves on issues of consent, on what constitutes rape and sexual assault, and realise that Buffy’s “no’s” are just that – no’s. Again, this kind of thinking is what leads to real-life rapes and sexual assaults.
Buffy is different from other women. When most women say no, and the guy continues, there isn't anything they can do. It's an entirely different situation from a fictional character who has superpowers! When Buffy says no, and if she really didn't want it, she could have beat the crap out of him! She could have easily fought him off. Her saying no, and then doing it anyway, shows the viewers that she knows that it's bad, but really wants it deep down. Should Spike have stopped? Yes. Did Buffy know that he wouldn't, unless she put up a fight? Yes. Again, she put herself in that situation, and she clearly wanted to have sex with Spike.

And this brings me to my final point, what a lot of fans seem to overlook constantly - that the Spuffy ship and their defense of it actually has real-world connotations. Every time a Spuffy fan defends the relationship by blaming Buffy, they are basically blaming any woman trapped in an abusive relationship. They are undermining what these women go through, what they endure, all for the sake of ship. Not only is it insulting to abuse survivors everywhere, it could potentially produce more victims. If young girls and women genuinely believe that Buffy is asking for the abuse that Spike doles out, if they genuinely believe that she is in any way responsible, what will happen if they themselves get trapped in abusive relationships. How will they extract themselves from such a relationship, if they believe that women bring abuse on themselves. And if men genuinely believe that Buffy is to blame, what’s to stop them from beating or raping women in the future, and hiding behind victim blaming. It’s a terrifying thought.
Wow, you have got some serious hyperbole going on here.
1. No one thinks that Buffy and Spike's "relationship" in S6 was a good one. No one believes that she was making the right decisions. Every Spuffy fan I've ever talked to is way more into the idea that Buffy was slightly attracted to the man, which lead them to fall in actual love in future seasons once he got a soul.
2. I don't know how you don't see it, but the show makes abundantly clear that Buffy made supremely bad decisions over the course of S6, and when she decided to finally dump him, it was for the better. Nothing about this show celebrates this gross relationship in any way.

The victim blaming of Buffy really needs to stop but, unfortunately, it never will. Fans will keep buying into the narrative, falling in love with Spike, and treating Buffy like she’s the perpetrator. It’s really disheartening, and all we can do is hope that someday things will change. In the meantime, we should refuse to keep quiet on the subject, because despite fans claiming it’s just a television show, the truth is, media shapes, molds and guides us, and a relationship such as Spuffy is incredibly dangerous to current and future viewers.
You should read Season 10. Imo, that's the real Spuffy.
I think that the show is way more nuanced than you're giving it credit. Entertainment like Twilight paints a very clear picture that a woman should be subservient to a man. Buffy: Season 6 is more about abusive relationships, how awful they can be, why you would enter into one in the first place, and why you should try to get out. If you don't see that, you're just looking for things that aren't actually there.
 
Ok WOW, I just got done reading the rest of this thread, and now I feel a little silly for spending 20 minutes writing out that response post. That was quite the argument.
 
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Athene

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I'm certainly not victim blaming Buffy but it's ignorant to believe that Spuffy was a gentle wonderful relationship before the attempted rape. I mean come on, how many times did Buffy say stuff like "No, stop or I don't want to" before she had sex with Spike or kissed him. It was practically foreplay for them. Their whole, two sided relationship was messed up and it took two people, Buffy and Spike, for that relationship to happen. It's not victim blaming to point out Buffy's mistakes.
 

The Ferg

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I'm certainly not victim blaming Buffy but it's ignorant to believe that Spuffy was a gentle wonderful relationship before the attempted rape. I mean come on, how many times did Buffy say stuff like "No, stop or I don't want to" before she had sex with Spike or kissed him. It was practically foreplay for them. Their whole, two sided relationship was messed up and it took two people, Buffy and Spike, for that relationship to happen. It's not victim blaming to point out Buffy's mistakes.
Well nowadays a lot of people think that you shouldn't ever be allowed to blame victims, even if it is partly their fault. It's kind of a gross and backwards way of thinking.
 

thetopher

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There can be a serious debate about the Spike/Buffy relationship BEFORE the break-up. Spike tormented Buffy, Buffy used Spike; fair enough- there is debate to be had there.
The real problem occurs when people start using the same argument to excuse the sexual assault. 'Spike didn't know any better', 'Buffy was giving mixed signals', 'she wasn't that traumatized because of what came before during their relationship' etc.
Many people don't seem to realize the shocking, shattering effect that that sort of thing can have on ANYONE.
And the writers really screwed up in the following season, which just makes fans who had a genuine problem with all the S6 antics so very mad. I understand that.
 

Athene

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There can be a serious debate about the Spike/Buffy relationship BEFORE the break-up. Spike tormented Buffy, Buffy used Spike; fair enough- there is debate to be had there.
The real problem occurs when people start using the same argument to excuse the sexual assault. 'Spike didn't know any better', 'Buffy was giving mixed signals', 'she wasn't that traumatized because of what came before during their relationship' etc.
Many people don't seem to realize the shocking, shattering effect that that sort of thing can have on ANYONE.
And the writers really screwed up in the following season, which just makes fans who had a genuine problem with all the S6 antics so very mad. I understand that.
I agree with you but the relationship led up to what happened when Spike attempted to rape Buffy so we have to look at that scene in context of their whole relationship, otherwise we wouldn't be judging Spike fairly. You're correct about the writers screwing up in season 7 and even season 6. I think it's hard for some fans to judge Spike harshly for the attempted rape because Buffy herself doesn't seem to 100% blame him for what happened, she even wants to leave him alone with Dawn shortly after he tried to rape her.
 
On the Faith/Buffy body swap thing, I personally don't consider that rape because by definition rape is 'sexual relations with a person against their will'. Seeing as Faith wasn't taking Buffy's body for sexual reasons, I don't consider it rape, but it was definitely a horrible thing to do.
 
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GraceK

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I agree with you but the relationship led up to what happened when Spike attempted to rape Buffy so we have to look at that scene in context of their whole relationship, otherwise we wouldn't be judging Spike fairly. You're correct about the writers screwing up in season 7 and even season 6. I think it's hard for some fans to judge Spike harshly for the attempted rape because Buffy herself doesn't seem to 100% blame him for what happened, she even wants to leave him alone with Dawn shortly after he tried to rape her.
 
On the Faith/Buffy body swap thing, I personally don't consider that rape because by definition rape is 'sexual relations with a person against their will'. Seeing as Faith wasn't taking Buffy's body for sexual reasons, I don't consider it rape, but it was definitely a horrible thing to do.

But she used Buffy's body for sexual reasons. The scene in the bathtub where she's touching herself is overtly sexual, and then she has sex with Riley. That is absolutely rape. She violated Buffy in every intimate way possible.

On the topic of Spike, why do we care about judging him fairly in that scene??? He was a absolutely, 100% wrong. He even knew it was wrong , that's the whole reason he went to get a soul. There relationship was OVER at that point, whatever damaging sexual relationship they had in the past was DONE and OVER with. Buffy is not to blame for anything in that scene. She was the victim 100% and trying to whitewash Spikes actions cause he's sexy and likeable is what is disgusting.

Also, Faith has done everything possible to make up for what has done and Buffy cuts her no slack, where as with Spike it's all peaches .
 
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Athene

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Trust me I basically hate Spike and obviously Buffy was the victim in that scene 100% I never said that it was Buffy's fault. However that scene wasn't out of the blue, there were connotations of rape and abuse in many spuffy scenes throughout season 6. What I'm saying is that to understand that scene you need to be thinking about what Spike/Buffy's relationship was like throughout the season, because they were both hurting each other, remember when they beat each other black and blue and then had sex.

I disagree that Faith raped Buffy though because I didn't see Faith touching her legs in the bath as particularly sexual, she was getting use to her new body and her intention of body swapping with Buffy was so that she could become Buffy, she didn't want to have sex with Buffy. However she did technically rape Riley imo.
 

GraceK

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Trust me I basically hate Spike and obviously Buffy was the victim in that scene 100% I never said that it was Buffy's fault. However that scene wasn't out of the blue, there were connotations of rape and abuse in many spuffy scenes throughout season 6. What I'm saying is that to understand that scene you need to be thinking about what Spike/Buffy's relationship was like throughout season.

I disagree that Faith raped Buffy though because I didn't see Faith touching her legs in the bath as particularly sexual, she was getting use to her new body and her intention of body swapping with Buffy was so that she could become Buffy, she didn't want to have sex with Buffy. However she did technically rape Riley imo.
I think I see what your trying to say in regards to Spike.

As for Faith, that's a matter of opinion I guess. I personally saw a very sexual vibe in that bathtub and Faith in my eyes always played up a sexual chemistry with Buffy. But I guess that's up for debate :)
 

Athene

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I think I see what your trying to say in regards to Spike.

As for Faith, that's a matter of opinion I guess. I personally saw a very sexual vibe in that bathtub and Faith in my eyes always played up a sexual chemistry with Buffy. But I guess that's up for debate :)
Fair enough :D
 

thetopher

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I agree with you but the relationship led up to what happened when Spike attempted to rape Buffy so we have to look at that scene in context of their whole relationship, otherwise we wouldn't be judging Spike fairly.
The relationship had been over for weeks if not longer, Buffy gave Spike many clear signals that they were over as a couple; she even gave him the respect of telling him WHY over and over 'I'm using you, 'I'm not in love with you.' so Spike has no excuse; he ignored the clear signals given in favor of his own feelings. He wanted Buffy so he was going to have Buffy.

On the Faith/Buffy body swap thing, I personally don't consider that rape because by definition rape is 'sexual relations with a person against their will'. Seeing as Faith wasn't taking Buffy's body for sexual reasons
Exactly. Buffy 'stole' Faith's life and so Faith saw her revenge as doing the same. He goal was escape- which is why she didn't hurt Buffy or any of her friends when she had the chance. Faith's goal was just to disappear, she'd already gotten all the payback she wanted.

The true distinction here is that Faith's motivation for the awful thing she did quickly falls apart in that very episode- she cannot get away from what she did/who she is just by 'becoming Buffy',
But in Spike's case, the motivation for his crime- his love of Buffy- is the driving force of his character even after he's 'reformed'.

But she used Buffy's body for sexual reasons. The scene in the bathtub where she's touching herself is overtly sexual, and then she has sex with Riley.
But Faith was 'Faith' at the time, not Buffy. Faith's 'rape' was against Riley, not Buffy.
What Faith did to Buffy- the body swap- is the same as what Amy's Mom did to Amy; it isn't rape but it is truly terrible; a violation.
But that's really just for accuracy's sake; I think the word rape should be used when it is warranted.
 

GraceK

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What Faith did to Buffy- the body swap- is the same as what Amy's Mom did to Amy; it isn't rape but it is truly terrible; a violation.
But that's really just for accuracy's sake; I think the word rape should be used when it is warranted.
I disagree. It wasn't the same thing as Amy's mom in my opinion because Faith used Buffy's body to have sex, in my eyes, that is rape. I don't think I'm overusing the word. I see your point but I think it's splitting hairs. Agree to disagree :)
 

Athene

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The relationship had been over for weeks if not longer, Buffy gave Spike many clear signals that they were over as a couple; she even gave him the respect of telling him WHY over and over 'I'm using you, 'I'm not in love with you.' so Spike has no excuse; he ignored the clear signals given in favor of his own feelings. He wanted Buffy so he was going to have Buffy.
That's true but putting yourself in Spike's shoes, he'd been getting what he'd wanted for almost a year which was Buffy. He wasn't just going to give that up and stop when Buffy told him too because Buffy was always saying no to Spike, she was always hitting him and he was always hitting back and they were always abusing each other. After that they'd normally have sex.... remember smashed? The difference was that when Buffy was saying "No, stop" that time in the bathroom she meant what she was saying, she actually wanted Spike to stop. Obviously Spike was in the wrong and he should have stayed away when Buffy said that she didn't want to be with him anymore but I can see why he didn't- and obviously Spike was being incredibly selfish when he didn't stay away but yeah that's what happened.
 
I disagree. It wasn't the same thing as Amy's mom in my opinion because Faith used Buffy's body to have sex, in my eyes, that is rape. I don't think I'm overusing the word. I see your point but I think it's splitting hairs. Agree to disagree :)
Well yeah but I'd assume that at some point Amy's mom would have used Amy's body to have sex. I don't consider it rape when Faith slept with Riley because in her mind she was buffy, so she wasn't raping Buffy she was raping Riley, now if Faith had sex with herself whilst in Buffy's body I'd take that as Faith raping Buffy but that didn't happen. But hey you're entitled to your opinion I just wanted to share my opinion lol.
 

thetopher

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That's true but putting yourself in Spike's shoes, he'd been getting what he'd wanted for almost a year which was Buffy.
Their sexual relationship was sometime after Halloween until just after Buffy's birthday (January) so more like 3 months.

He wasn't just going to give that up and stop when Buffy told him too because Buffy was always saying no to Spike, she was always hitting him and he was always hitting back and they were always abusing each other. After that they'd normally have sex.... remember smashed?
Buffy stayed away from him, didn't visit Spike for sex, told him that whilst she respected that his feelings for her were real she did not share them. When he hung around on patrol she calmly walked away, again repeating that she didn't love him.
Now, Buffy was hurt by Spike and Anya's sexcapades but she- for the most part- keeps that pain to herself and STILL keeps away from Spike. Then because Dawn pops by his crypt and says that he hurt Buffy Spike decides to go around and confront Buffy IN HER BATHROOM and wants talk things out then and there. That's crossing a boundary no matter how you look at it.
And I'm not gonna go into the (deeply harrowing) pleading that Buffy displayed in the bathroom; nothing like the weak no's we've witnessed before during the Spuffy antics.
Spike realized what he was doing, he just didn't care because demon love is, at its foundation, selfish love. Always.
It's about getting what you want despite what the other person wants. Buffy realized that, which is why she stopped seeing Spike after 'As You Were'- she was being selfish.
Spike didn't realize that because he clearly did not have the capacity. He is not a fully rounded, soulled individual.
 

Athene

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Their sexual relationship was sometime after Halloween until just after Buffy's birthday (January) so more like 3 months.



Buffy stayed away from him, didn't visit Spike for sex, told him that whilst she respected that his feelings for her were real she did not share them. When he hung around on patrol she calmly walked away, again repeating that she didn't love him.
Now, Buffy was hurt by Spike and Anya's sexcapades but she- for the most part- keeps that pain to herself and STILL keeps away from Spike. Then because Dawn pops by his crypt and says that he hurt Buffy Spike decides to go around and confront Buffy IN HER BATHROOM and wants talk things out then and there. That's crossing a boundary no matter how you look at it.
And I'm not gonna go into the (deeply harrowing) pleading that Buffy displayed in the bathroom; nothing like the weak no's we've witnessed before during the Spuffy antics.
Spike realized what he was doing, he just didn't care because demon love is, at its foundation, selfish love. Always.
It's about getting what you want despite what the other person wants. Buffy realized that, which is why she stopped seeing Spike after 'As You Were'- she was being selfish.
Spike didn't realize that because he clearly did not have the capacity. He is not a fully rounded, soulled individual.
Yes but Spike has no soul or conscience, once Buffy got into a relationship with him, he wasn't going to be able to let her go easily. It's like feeding a thirsty horse water and then taking it away. I'm not saying that it was Buffy's fault but he wasn't going to just end the relationship once Buffy made it clear that it's over. That's not how soulless vampires work.
 
Their sexual relationship was sometime after Halloween until just after Buffy's birthday (January) so more like 3 months.
I meant that Spike has been wanting Buffy for about a year.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Yes but Spike has no soul or conscience
Exactly. Although I blame soulless Spike entirely for the rape-attempt, I don't hold Spike-with-soul culpable exactly. I do think that his emotions linked to that event could've been explored better the following season- given that the writers still wanted to do the whole Spuffy romance angle.

It's like; there's a guy who turns nasty when he has a few too many drinks, he badly beats the girl that he's in a relationship with and is so horrified by that he checks himself into rehab.
Then a few months later he returns wanting to renew the relationship 'I still love you, I did this for you' without really apologizing. Not only that but sometimes he says things like 'hey, you might'a had it coming because you chose to be around me' or something. I mean, to me that sounds like a real jerk-move and not something I would call 'self-less love'.

I don't this Spike-with-a-soul is a rapist, I just think he's a massive a-hole.


I'm not saying that it was Buffy's fault
Then yay! We are in thunderous agreement. :)
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Great analogy....
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