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No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

Athene

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Sineya
Exactly. Although I blame soulless Spike entirely for the rape-attempt, I don't hold Spike-with-soul culpable exactly. I do think that his emotions linked to that event could've been explored better the following season- given that the writers still wanted to do the whole Spuffy romance angle.

It's like; there's a guy who turns nasty when he has a few too many drinks, he badly beats the girl that he's in a relationship with and is so horrified by that he checks himself into rehab.
Then a few months later he returns wanting to renew the relationship 'I still love you, I did this for you' without really apologizing. Not only that but sometimes he says things like 'hey, you might'a had it coming because you chose to be around me' or something. I mean, to me that sounds like a real jerk-move and not something I would call 'self-less love'.

I don't this Spike-with-a-soul is a rapist, I just think he's a massive a-hole.




Then yay! We are in thunderous agreement. :)
I agree I think that Spike is a total jerk most of the time, and I'm disappointed in Buffy because she knew what he was when she started sleeping with him but hey I guess that's what happens when you're taken out of heaven.
 

Spanky

I'm came here to chew bubblegum and go off topic.
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Black Thorn
A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog protests, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it sting him, they would both drown. So, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion stings the frog, sealing both of their fates. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

The frog is as much to blame for what befell him as the scorpion. The frog forgot to whom he was entrusting his life.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
So perfect.

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
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A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog protests, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it sting him, they would both drown. So, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion stings the frog, sealing both of their fates. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

The frog is as much to blame for what befell him as the scorpion. The frog forgot to whom he was entrusting his life.
That seems quite profound and philosophical. Kind of like "If you're going to play with fire, don't complain when your fingers get burned.


I think the writers handled the fallout of the AR badly (aka almost not at all), in fact the whole AR was handled badly. It seems like the writers wanted Spike to do something so bad that he'd be compelled to get his soul yet they forgot that such an action has consequences, then they forgot that attempted rape actually makes a character unlikeable and they want the audience to feel sorry for Spike, so they thought the best way to deal with it was to brush it under the carpet.

The problem with Spike's writing is that he does have a conscience pre-soul, therefore "not having a conscience and the ability too tell the difference between right and wrong" doesn't work as an excuse. Spike is capable of feeling guilt pre-soul. We see this during his relationship with Drusilla when he apologises for snapping at her and the whole act of going to get his soul is because he feels guilty about what he did to Buffy.

I also find it off-putting that someone feels they have to change a part of themselves in order to be accepted by the other person. The idea that Buffy only truly accepts Spike once he has a soul actually makes Buffy look judgemental. She broke up with him, not for his benefit but for hers. Whilst that doesn't mean Buffy was wrong for getting out of a relationship she was unhappy in, at the same time it was all about her, if that makes sense? She didn't care about Spike's feelings throughout season 6, she treated him as a toy she could just pick up and throw away as she pleases.

I realise that sounds anti-Buffy and it's not meant to be. I just think Spuffy in season 6 and 7 was one big mess and its complexities (eg six of one, half a dozen of the other) weren't handle with the finesse and delicateness that such a relationship would require. I think Buffy's actions in season 6 in regards to Spuffy get whitewashed because the AR is so terrible, it overshadows them rather than be treated as separate issues.
 

Athene

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Sineya
That seems quite profound and philosophical. Kind of like "If you're going to play with fire, don't complain when your fingers get burned.


I think the writers handled the fallout of the AR badly (aka almost not at all), in fact the whole AR was handled badly. It seems like the writers wanted Spike to do something so bad that he'd be compelled to get his soul yet they forgot that such an action has consequences, then they forgot that attempted rape actually makes a character unlikeable and they want the audience to feel sorry for Spike, so they thought the best way to deal with it was to brush it under the carpet.

The problem with Spike's writing is that he does have a conscience pre-soul, therefore "not having a conscience and the ability too tell the difference between right and wrong" doesn't work as an excuse. Spike is capable of feeling guilt pre-soul. We see this during his relationship with Drusilla when he apologises for snapping at her and the whole act of going to get his soul is because he feels guilty about what he did to Buffy.

I also find it off-putting that someone feels they have to change a part of themselves in order to be accepted by the other person. The idea that Buffy only truly accepts Spike once he has a soul actually makes Buffy look judgemental. She broke up with him, not for his benefit but for hers. Whilst that doesn't mean Buffy was wrong for getting out of a relationship she was unhappy in, at the same time it was all about her, if that makes sense? She didn't care about Spike's feelings throughout season 6, she treated him as a toy she could just pick up and throw away as she pleases.

I realise that sounds anti-Buffy and it's not meant to be. I just think Spuffy in season 6 and 7 was one big mess and its complexities (eg six of one, half a dozen of the other) weren't handle with the finesse and delicateness that such a relationship would require. I think Buffy's actions in season 6 in regards to Spuffy get whitewashed because the AR is so terrible, it overshadows them rather than be treated as separate issues.
Exactly! It's like how did the writers expect the fans to hate Spike for the attempted rape if even Buffy herself brushes it off! It wasn't taken seriously enough but then again nothing Spike does wrong is ever taken seriously enough. Buffy even gets back together with him in season 7 and he's portrayed like a saint then too.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Exactly! It's like how did the writers expect the fans to hate Spike for the attempted rape if even Buffy herself brushes it off! It wasn't taken seriously enough but then again nothing Spike does wrong is ever taken seriously enough. Buffy even gets back together with him in season 7 and he's portrayed like a saint then too.
I think Spike as a character in his own right is great, he excels at being the snarky villain/reluctant ally. However, the show tried to force him into a role that didn't suit him: the lead romantic interest. From season 5 onwards, Spike stopped being his own independent person and became all about Buffy. In a way it was inevitable that Buffy would reciprocate Spike's feelings for her because that's the way those types of storylines go, but the way it got from Point A to Point B is terrible because of how unrealistic it was. After the AR, Spuffy should've been dead in the water, not played as a romance.
 

Athene

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Sineya
I think Spike as a character in his own right is great, he excels at being the snarky villain/reluctant ally. However, the show tried to force him into a role that didn't suit him: the lead romantic interest. From season 5 onwards, Spike stopped being his own independent person and became all about Buffy. In a way it was inevitable that Buffy would reciprocate Spike's feelings for her because that's the way those types of storylines go, but the way it got from Point A to Point B is terrible because of how unrealistic it was. After the AR, Spuffy should've been dead in the water, not played as a romance.
I agree because Spike was incredibly fun and imo more interesting in season 2. I saw him and Dru as a more extreme and romantic version of Faith/the mayor (they were evil but they still loved each other), that was a way better story than the #2 Slayer and a vampire romance :( I guess Spike is an example of why writers shouldn't appease fans because Spike only became a main because of his popularity. However why did that have to lead to Spuffy? Could they not have just had Spike and Drusilla both be mains and allies to Buffy or something :D
 

DeadlyDuo

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I agree because Spike was incredibly fun and imo more interesting in season 2. I saw him and Dru as a more extreme and romantic version of Faith/the mayor (they were evil but they still loved each other), that was a way better story than the #2 Slayer and a vampire romance :( I guess Spike is an example of why writers shouldn't appease fans because Spike only became a main because of his popularity. However why did that have to lead to Spuffy? Could they not have just had Spike and Drusilla both be mains and allies to Buffy or something :D
Agreed. As you can probably tell, I'm a big Sprusilla fan :D and I would've loved the two of them to stay together. They could've appeared on Angel during the Darla arc so that we would've had a present-day Whirlwind reunion. Drusilla would also have seen Dawn for what she was as Dru is crazy. Funny thing is though, Dru is either mentioned by Spike or appears in some form in a scene with Spike in every season. She is never far from Spike's mind.
 

Athene

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Sineya
Agreed. As you can probably tell, I'm a big Sprusilla fan :D and I would've loved the two of them to stay together. They could've appeared on Angel during the Darla arc so that we would've had a present-day Whirlwind reunion. Drusilla would also have seen Dawn for what she was as Dru is crazy. Funny thing is though, Dru is either mentioned by Spike or appears in some form in a scene with Spike in every season. She is never far from Spike's mind.
I do like to think that Spike never forgot Dru lol :oops: they'll be together one day:(
 

DeadlyDuo

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I do like to think that Spike never forgot Dru lol :oops: they'll be together one day:(
What they should do is split Spike into his evil half and good half. The evil half (which would practically be his season 2 self) would go off and be with Dru whilst the good half would stay with Buffy. Everybody wins!
 

Athene

Scooby
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Sineya
What they should do is split Spike into his evil half and good half. The evil half (which would practically be his season 2 self) would go off and be with Dru whilst the good half would stay with Buffy. Everybody wins!
I'd love it if they did that :oops: of course Buffy might get bored though lol
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
In "Beauty and the Beasts 3x04", the show already dealt with a couple where the male had the equivalent of "'roid rage" with Pete killing Debbie, so we are familiar with the topic. In "Crush 5x14", Spike tasers Buffy and chains her up then does the same with Drusilla. Why did Buffy not stake him / decapitate him / burn him / send him into sunlight immediately as soon as she got free or shortly thereafter? In the spirit of @Mr. Pole and the scorpion, here is Al Wilson and "The Snake" and a flashback to a different time:

[youtube]
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I have even heard a rumour that Marti Noxon was pressured into writing an episode like that to make up for the "forgive your abuser" message of I Only Have Eyes For You and that's why Beauty and the Beasts feels so forced. :)
Marti sure likes to work with dodgy themes, however, i do not believe that was the message of the episode. The kid is not even the abuser. He is the murderer. The teacher was clearly the abuser, as she was the adult.

I think the message was that we all have emotions and that we need to learn to deal with them. We cannot let our emotions control us, but it is unhealthy to pretend as if we don't feel.
 
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