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Opinions on the "Get Out" Scene for Dawn

NeonSlayer

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That isn't canonical. Not within the seven seasons of the show - and I certainly don't count the comics, if that's where you're getting that fact from. Besides what they later decide for comics has no bearing on what has already been written. Within the canon of the show we know she got called in 1996 because we see it happen, but the exact date is never mentioned.
S1 Buffy is 16 when she turns up. Dawn is 15 in 'Gone' - because Doris says so. She does not have a canonical birthday so we do not know exactly when her birthday falls. She starts sophomore year at the start on s7. I think sophomore year is the equivalent of y11 in England - she would be 15 in that September and turning 16 sometime in that school year. Presumably she was a fall baby - if she was 14 in blood ties and 15 in Gone, but not 16 before the summer ( which would make her a school year older - but she is definitely a sophomore in 'lessons' - because she said she was a freshman in the Halloween episode. ) Buffy is mid sophomore year at the beginning of season 1. Any Dawn we see prior to about 'sleeper' is younger than S1 Buffy. And has already lost her mother 18 months previously - whilst 15/16 year old Buffy still had hers.
Dawn was already 14 when she arrived in s5 in late August/early September of 2000 (they talk about that week being the end of summer and it was right when classes were about to start again). In The Real Me Dawn said she is 14. She was still 14 by Buffy's birthday in January 2001. In All the Way Buffy says Dawn is 15 and that was in October 2001 since it was Halloween. In OMWF she sang "I'm 15 so this Queen thing's illegal" and that was in November 2001. Still 15 in Gone which is in December 2001.

In Shadow she said she had her 10th birthday at the carousel soon after they arrived in Sunnydale. It's more probable she mistakenly meant her 11th birthday since the timing of their arrival in Sunnydale had to be in January since the ritual in The Harvest was on the first moon after the solstice. The summer solstice is in June and the winter solstice is in December. And in Welcome to the Hellmouth Joyce said Buffy was 16 and in Witch Buffy said she had been slaying over a year. So subtract an entire year from an episode that took place not long after January 1997, that puts you in January 1996. Also, it wasn't the beginning of the school year for anyone else in s1 highlighting Buffy was most likely a beginning of the spring semester transfer. Also why Buffy needed to play catch up.

Since Buffy's birthday is in January and she became a Slayer when she was 5 and the flashback to her finding out she was a Slayer took place in 1996 she had to have become a Slayer at the beginning of that year.

So going from canon from the tv series, Dawn's birthday is in February or March.
 
Last edited:
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
And Spike was barely 200 years old in 1998, 126 in 1999, but was actually sired in 1880 - I think you give them too much credit for thinking about the correct ages of characters other than Buffy. Dawn is a sophomore in s7 ergo -she is S1 Buffy's age

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
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Messages
7,155
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Canada
Sineya
And it all comes back to Dawn in "Weight of the World" when Glory is taking her to be prepared for the sacrifice:

As the Minions speak, we see Dawn sitting, eyes wide, as a scabby green HAND enters frame and marks her forehead with ash.

HIGH PRIEST (O.S.)
(Czech)
At je Klic vynat z teto smrtelne podoby, budiz zruseno jeho prokleti ...
(translation)
Let the Key pour forth from this mortal form, the Magicks be Undone, and ...

GLORY
What's he doing?

HIGH PRIEST
I must anoint the Key.

GLORY
Really don't. Go.

HIGH PRIEST
But...

GLORY
Get out get out GET OUT!!!


As Glory shrieks, the Minions usher the High Priest out.

MURK
We'll just, uh... give you two a little space.

Glory grabs a paper towel and starts roughly rubbing the schmutz off Dawn's forehead.

GLORY
Tch. You know, you recapture your Godhood and unleash Armageddon?
All of a sudden everybody wants to be part of the inner circle. You okay?


Even hellgods get exasperated.
 
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So going from canon from the tv series, Dawn's birthday is in February or March.
You said yourself, they got her age wrong at the carousel - so why trust everything else to be accurate?
Alternatively Dawn's birthday is in fact September - when she was created.
Which would make her 15 by OMWF
And just turning 16 during 'Lessons.' And therefore a sophomore - which she is. If she had been 16 in the March/ Feb preceding she would be a Junior. Which she isn't.
As S1 Buffy arrives to Sunnydale a couple of months after her 16th birthday, Dawn is 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' Buffy age around 'sleeper.'

Considering that Buffy's birthday information changes twice within the 'I robot you Jane' episode - and the 'witch' episode includes a banner stating 'cheerleader try outs 1996' - despite the fact that 'canonically' she doesn't even arrive in Sunnydale until 1997 ... pretty much any and all timelines in season 1 are suspect. The banner in conjunction with her having slain vampires for over a year would make her get called in 1995 - which we know she didn't because we saw it happen. The writers are perfectly happy to fudge around with dates, particularly from early on, if it suits them better. For example - if they absolutely mean Welcome to the Hellmouth to mean the winter solstice (though as we see they were filming in 1996 - they may have meant summer solstice, but it all just got pushed back... so we should take 'solstice' with a pinch of salt, as they just wanted something mystical sounding) then Buffy must arrive almost exactly on her birthday. (or even before - but they say she is 16, so not.) In which case if she has been slaying for 'over a year' as she says in witch ... then she has been slaying since before her 15th birthday... or it was a mid season replacement show - that didn't expect to be made in the first place, never mind picked up for a second season and they really weren't that bothered for numerical continuity as they certainly had no idea that people would still be picking it over 20 years later. They probably thought it didn't really matter - and could make off hand comments without it being scrutinised from every angle. But assuming the solstice is important - and not to be hand waved as 'solstice means something different for demons - so this wasn't January', then Buffy has been slaying 'for a year' not 'over a year' in 'witch'. If we ignore solstice - and push 'the harvest' back to March - then Buffy's statement in 'witch' could be true (just), if she was called around her 15th birthday. But they can't both be true. One of those factoids has to give.

The fact is - going on later canon, if Buffy was called as the slayer in Jan 1996 (so the very beginning of the second semester of her freshman year), and began to cut class, start fights, lose all her friends, burn down a gym - go to a mental institution and get expelled ... she did not have time to be the Prom princess, the fiesta queen and have the yearbook (which wouldn't come out until the summer) be 'the story of me.' Plus - she was already a cheerleader before she was a slayer. She would have had to make the cheerleading squad practically the first week of her first year at Hemrey... we don't have school cheerleading squads in England - so I don't know how likely that is ... but sophomores other than Buffy are trying out in 'witch' - which suggests that only exceptional freshman would make the cut, if older girls are still waiting. And whilst Buffy is a great slayer - she isn't on a cheerleading level with Amber (who turned down the Laker girls and still is having to audition for the sunnydale squad).
If Buffy has been a slayer for over a year, then why did Angel wait until Sunnydale to help her? He was specifically called to help her out ... she could easily have been dead within that year when he was hanging around SunnyD. Kendra only lasted a year. His entire redemption mission would be a non-starter. But if he expected her to turn up in Sunnydale within a few months of getting called - that makes much more sense.
If Buffy had been a slayer for a year prior to her arriving in Sunnydale, then her relationship with Merrick would have been pretty well established. It would take until 'surprise' for her to have been Giles' slayer as long ... her relationship with Merrick would have been as established as her relationship with Giles during 'surprise' - and yet she never mentions him, his death seems to have not have affected her. Faith is massively cut up about the loss of her original watcher - but Buffy? Nope.

The fact is, plenty of the canon of later seasons contradicts season 1 - or makes things said in season 1 seem unlikely. Considering the later seasons are part of an established show, that is building a richer world episode by episode, whereas season 1 is ... season 1 - the later stuff is what we should accept as canon (as seen with the many ages - and sires - of Spike). Considering season 1 has date related bloopers visible on screen, anything they say there about time should be taken with a pinch of salt, as the writers have not settled on their canon at that point (and don't expect to have to - mid season replacement, shoe string budget.)

But what Buffy did or did not get up to in her mid teen years has got nothing to do with the fact that Dawn is still well within her rights to be pissed off at the way she is being treated. Dawn isn't Buffy. People go through different things and mature at different rates. One person is not unentitled to be upset about a trauma that happens to them just because someone else has it worse. That's just a race to the bottom of victim olympics. Everyone is entitled to their feelings. Dawn has had it tougher than average and is acting out because of that. That's completely normal.
Faith has had it tougher than average - and she kills people for fun. Fans still like Faith. Fans still defend Faith - and some even attack Buffy for not being kinder and more understanding, or giving her a room in her house. Getting a bit screamy because your emotions are too much to handle is hardly comparable in the villainy stakes.
 

NeonSlayer

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You said yourself, they got her age wrong at the carousel - so why trust everything else to be accurate?
Alternatively Dawn's birthday is in fact September - when she was created.
Which would make her 15 by OMWF
And just turning 16 during 'Lessons.' And therefore a sophomore - which she is. If she had been 16 in the March/ Feb preceding she would be a Junior. Which she isn't.
As S1 Buffy arrives to Sunnydale a couple of months after her 16th birthday, Dawn is 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' Buffy age around 'sleeper.'

Considering that Buffy's birthday information changes twice within the 'I robot you Jane' episode - and the 'witch' episode includes a banner stating 'cheerleader try outs 1996' - despite the fact that 'canonically' she doesn't even arrive in Sunnydale until 1997 ... pretty much any and all timelines in season 1 are suspect. The banner in conjunction with her having slain vampires for over a year would make her get called in 1995 - which we know she didn't because we saw it happen. The writers are perfectly happy to fudge around with dates, particularly from early on, if it suits them better. For example - if they absolutely mean Welcome to the Hellmouth to mean the winter solstice (though as we see they were filming in 1996 - they may have meant summer solstice, but it all just got pushed back... so we should take 'solstice' with a pinch of salt, as they just wanted something mystical sounding) then Buffy must arrive almost exactly on her birthday. (or even before - but they say she is 16, so not.) In which case if she has been slaying for 'over a year' as she says in witch ... then she has been slaying since before her 15th birthday... or it was a mid season replacement show - that didn't expect to be made in the first place, never mind picked up for a second season and they really weren't that bothered for numerical continuity as they certainly had no idea that people would still be picking it over 20 years later. They probably thought it didn't really matter - and could make off hand comments without it being scrutinised from every angle. But assuming the solstice is important - and not to be hand waved as 'solstice means something different for demons - so this wasn't January', then Buffy has been slaying 'for a year' not 'over a year' in 'witch'. If we ignore solstice - and push 'the harvest' back to March - then Buffy's statement in 'witch' could be true (just), if she was called around her 15th birthday. But they can't both be true. One of those factoids has to give.

The fact is - going on later canon, if Buffy was called as the slayer in Jan 1996 (so the very beginning of the second semester of her freshman year), and began to cut class, start fights, lose all her friends, burn down a gym - go to a mental institution and get expelled ... she did not have time to be the Prom princess, the fiesta queen and have the yearbook (which wouldn't come out until the summer) be 'the story of me.' Plus - she was already a cheerleader before she was a slayer. She would have had to make the cheerleading squad practically the first week of her first year at Hemrey... we don't have school cheerleading squads in England - so I don't know how likely that is ... but sophomores other than Buffy are trying out in 'witch' - which suggests that only exceptional freshman would make the cut, if older girls are still waiting. And whilst Buffy is a great slayer - she isn't on a cheerleading level with Amber (who turned down the Laker girls and still is having to audition for the sunnydale squad).
If Buffy has been a slayer for over a year, then why did Angel wait until Sunnydale to help her? He was specifically called to help her out ... she could easily have been dead within that year when he was hanging around SunnyD. Kendra only lasted a year. His entire redemption mission would be a non-starter. But if he expected her to turn up in Sunnydale within a few months of getting called - that makes much more sense.
If Buffy had been a slayer for a year prior to her arriving in Sunnydale, then her relationship with Merrick would have been pretty well established. It would take until 'surprise' for her to have been Giles' slayer as long ... her relationship with Merrick would have been as established as her relationship with Giles during 'surprise' - and yet she never mentions him, his death seems to have not have affected her. Faith is massively cut up about the loss of her original watcher - but Buffy? Nope.

The fact is, plenty of the canon of later seasons contradicts season 1 - or makes things said in season 1 seem unlikely. Considering the later seasons are part of an established show, that is building a richer world episode by episode, whereas season 1 is ... season 1 - the later stuff is what we should accept as canon (as seen with the many ages - and sires - of Spike). Considering season 1 has date related bloopers visible on screen, anything they say there about time should be taken with a pinch of salt, as the writers have not settled on their canon at that point (and don't expect to have to - mid season replacement, shoe string budget.)

But what Buffy did or did not get up to in her mid teen years has got nothing to do with the fact that Dawn is still well within her rights to be pissed off at the way she is being treated. Dawn isn't Buffy. People go through different things and mature at different rates. One person is not unentitled to be upset about a trauma that happens to them just because someone else has it worse. That's just a race to the bottom of victim olympics. Everyone is entitled to their feelings. Dawn has had it tougher than average and is acting out because of that. That's completely normal.
Faith has had it tougher than average - and she kills people for fun. Fans still like Faith. Fans still defend Faith - and some even attack Buffy for not being kinder and more understanding, or giving her a room in her house. Getting a bit screamy because your emotions are too much to handle is hardly comparable in the villainy stakes.
Do you think I hate Dawn? I don't. I just think she could've been written better. She had a lot of potential as a character that was squandered. Michelle Trachtenberg has said it as well.

One of my sisters had to repeat the first grade so was 14-15 in 8th grade instead of the more common 13-14 for that school year. It happens.

I only explain away things that I think have reasonable explanations.

In Witch it was the 96-97 school year so they might have just wrote 96, it'd still be accurate. Or the cheerleader was stupid, going by "cool" characters like Harmony it was a possibility some of the cheerleaders forgot it was 97 now. In I Robot You Jane Buffy's birthday changed on the school computer files, which aren't always accurate (Cassie's didn't list her genetic heart defect). In School Hard Giles messed up Spike's age because he had never heard of him and was going off of that day's research. Spike was sired in the 1800s and they were almost in the 2000s so if Giles only saw the century and not year that Spike was around it would look like 200 years, 1800s + 1900s. Spike saying "You were my sire man, my Yoda" isn't necessarily a contradiction since he was his grandsire (he sired his sire) & the Yoda part denotes mentor/influence. In later seasons Spike says that while Drusilla made him a vampire it was Angelus that made him a monster.

Witch takes place after the two part pilot (January 97 for characters) so most likely it was now in February. A year before would be February 96 and a little over a year before would be January 96, which holds.

It never says Merrick survived the entire year before she moved. He probably died only a few months after meeting her.

Angel didn't help right away because as Whistler said, in his current state (homeless feeding on rats for 19 years) he couldn't go two rounds with a fruit fly. Angel needed time to heal himself before he could've been of any help to Buffy.

I can possibly buy Dawn's birthday is in the summer so that she was 16 by Lessons. But that would make her the same age as WTTH Buffy in Lessons (September) and not Sleeper (November).
 

MrCrazyFace

Slaypires Are Dope
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27
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Perth, Scotland
I don't think I've ever cringed and laughed at the same time. Well, not after this scene. I've always been anti-Dawn but I'm sure(if Joss tried) she could have been a better character.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
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Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,155
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Canada
Sineya
Get out, get out, get out seems to be a common theme. In "Lessons", the manifest spirit janitor in the basement of the new school says it at the end of Act 1:


DEAD GIRL: You can't protect her. You couldn't protect me.

Buffy turns around, and there's no one there. Then something else comes after her and she backs against the wall.

DEAD JANITOR: Get out. Get out. Get out!

Buffy looks up again, and he's gone. Fade to black.


That's Glory, Dawn and the dead janitor who say it. I am still in full support of Dawn for saying that to people who lied and hid the truth. In particular, the exchange between Dawn, Buffy and Joyce that goes like this:

DAWN: Why didn't you tell me?
BUFFY: We were going to. It just... (trails off. Dawn gives her an angry look)
JOYCE: We thought it would be better if we waited until you were older.

My first impression was that it sounds like the excuses parents make up for not teaching their daughter anything about sex until the daughter is pregnant.
 
TriBel
TriBel
There's some really significant stuff here (I'm a Freudian remember?). Thanks! :)
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