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Oz or Tara.

thrasherpix

Scooby
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For one who saves lives as often as he does (not to mention coming up with the odd ideas, from ritual with tarot cards to rocket launchers and helping lead Buffy's army in season 3 and bringing the wrecking ball in season 5, not to mention standing up to Angelus while Buffy was helpless in the hospital after he saved Buffy yet again, infiltrating swim teams being dosed with mutagens, and with Cordy's help killed Bug Guy of the Order of Taraka), Xander doesn't get enough appreciation.

I can believe Joss would've killed Oz as well as that's such a Joss thing to do. I still don't blame the LGBT fans for feeling betrayed over it as it's so cliche to kill the gay or lesbian (which contributes to the belief that such is a cursed life that many have consciously or otherwise) that even in this decade I know people who still get scared whenever a character comes out as lesbian in fiction because it's like cancer...it means death, a fear not so sharp over the straight couples though it would be just as dramatic. It's getting better, but was still terrible back when Tara was killed off. And turning the magic that was once a symbol of empowerment and bonding between Tara and Willow into something toxic didn't help.
 

rogueangel

Townie
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For one who saves lives as often as he does (not to mention coming up with the odd ideas, from ritual with tarot cards to rocket launchers and helping lead Buffy's army in season 3 and bringing the wrecking ball in season 5, not to mention standing up to Angelus while Buffy was helpless in the hospital after he saved Buffy yet again, infiltrating swim teams being dosed with mutagens, and with Cordy's help killed Bug Guy of the Order of Taraka), Xander doesn't get enough appreciation.

I can believe Joss would've killed Oz as well as that's such a Joss thing to do. I still don't blame the LGBT fans for feeling betrayed over it as it's so cliche to kill the gay or lesbian (which contributes to the belief that such is a cursed life that many have consciously or otherwise) that even in this decade I know people who still get scared whenever a character comes out as lesbian in fiction because it's like cancer...it means death, a fear not so sharp over the straight couples though it would be just as dramatic. It's getting better, but was still terrible back when Tara was killed off. And turning the magic that was once a symbol of empowerment and bonding between Tara and Willow into something toxic didn't help.
I can't help but think that I read recently that every male queer character on The Vampire Diaries and The Originals (A total of 13 seasons between them) died. There was a bi female couple who lived, but still, that's a lot of dead queer men there. The whole bury your gays/tragic gay tropes are still alive and well.
Hearing that Joss planned to kill Oz the same way as Tara if he had stayed does strangely make me a little more ok, as I know that's a Joss thing to do, no couple is allowed to be happy for long. But at the time, Tara was one of the few openly gay characters out there, and her death was a blow to the LGBT community. It hurt more because we had so little representation, and I think Joss didn't quite realize how Tara was bigger than just his show, and why killing her had such a painful impact on so many people.
I would never want to say that LGBT characters should have plot armor. only that we need enough diverse characters that we can afford to lose one now and then.
 
Blaze
Blaze
I hate the bury your gays trope. It is still very much alive as you've said

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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Hearing that Joss planned to kill Oz the same way as Tara if he had stayed does strangely make me a little more ok, as I know that's a Joss thing to do, no couple is allowed to be happy for long. But at the time, Tara was one of the few openly gay characters out there, and her death was a blow to the LGBT community. It hurt more because we had so little representation, and I think Joss didn't quite realize how Tara was bigger than just his show, and why killing her had such a painful impact on so many people.
I would never want to say that LGBT characters should have plot armor. only that we need enough diverse characters that we can afford to lose one now and then.
That to me is A LOT like saying that black people shouldn't be shot, but white people should.
 

rogueangel

Townie
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That to me is A LOT like saying that black people shouldn't be shot, but white people should.
It would be more like saying that the death of a black character carries heavier weight if it was a situation where there were very few black people appearing on television.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
It still comes across as biased and insensitive to me.

rogueangel

Townie
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It would be more like saying that the death of a black character carries heavier weight if it was a situation where there were very few black people appearing on television.
Biased and insensitive that I say the death of a fictional gay character carries more weight than a straight character, at a time when there were almost no gay characters appearing in popular media? I also didn't say anyone should be shot at all.
 

DeadlyDuo

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That to me is A LOT like saying that black people shouldn't be shot, but white people should.
I can see where you're coming from, however @rogueangel does have a point. If you have one black character or one gay character and ten straight and/or white characters, it's unfair for the minority to be killed off. Saying that, your point also has validity. A character shouldn't be saved because of the colour of their skin or their sexuality, however it needs to go in both directions. For example, straight white male characters shouldn't be killed off just because they're straight white males and that's not woke enough to warrant survival because otherwise there would be accusations of "white male privilege".

I would've been quite happy with them killing off Kennedy regardless of whether or not she was a lesbian.
 

Blaze

Let it Burn
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Black Thorn
If your show has 10 gay characters and 10 straight characters and you kill 1 gay character, no one will complain.

If your show has 19 straight characters and 1 gay character and you choose to kill that 1 gay character, then yes, there is a problem there (especially when I can think of 10 shows that fall in this category).
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Oz's death would carry more weight for me than Tara's or Kennedy's.
rogueangel
rogueangel
Oz's death would carry more weight for me that Kennedy's as well.

Blaze

Let it Burn
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Black Thorn
@rogueangel and @FaithLehane16

It's not about who's death carry the most weight in the sense "which will I be most sad about" or "which will change the story the most". It is about real societal biases against gay people. There is a very long history that comes with the bury your gays trope. I won't get into the details, but the trope came from real homophobia, and is still driven by that to this days. If you look at statistics the number of gay characters that die is disproportionately high. It's like saying a show killed 1 straight character and 1 gay character but the straight character death was sadder, and they killed one of each so what is the problem? Than you look at the stats and it translates to 5% of straight characters on the air died and 85% of gay characters died. Yet they are compared as though they are equal and we shouldn't complain that gay characters die.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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@rogueangel and @FaithLehane16

It's not about who's death carry the most weight in the sense "which will I be most sad about" or "which will change the story the most". It is about real societal biases against gay people. There is a very long history that comes with the bury your gays trope. I won't get into the details, but the trope came from real homophobia, and is still driven by that to this days. If you look at statistics the number of gay characters that die is disproportionately high. It's like saying a show killed 1 straight character and 1 gay character but the straight character death was sadder, and they killed one of each so what is the problem? Than you look at the stats and it translates to 5% of straight characters on the air died and 85% of gay characters died. Yet they are compared as though they are equal and we shouldn't complain that gay characters die.
My boyfriend and I get annoyed by the Mexicans who come into the United States and get more benefits than the single, middle aged white man.
 

Blaze

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Black Thorn
My boyfriend and I get annoyed by the Mexicans who come into the United States and get more benefits than the single, middle aged white man.
How does that have anything to do with Tara, Oz, and the bury your gays trope?
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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And as I explained, gay characters are not treated with equity in the media.
It's quite annoying that it might seem that way. I'm not a homophobe, but I still prefer Oz over Tara, and even Kennedy. His departure was sadder than Tara's death to me. His last words had more meaning than Tara's.
 

thrasherpix

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Skipping some other stuff, I just wanted to say that all too many who grew up gay, especially when Buffy was first airing, were told that their lives would be steeped in death and misery. (It was often added that gay people couldn't accomplish anything, ignoring that until fairly recently to admit to being gay was to be imprisoned in jails and mental wards, or at least barred from most jobs...and yet somehow it was the sexual orientation to blame rather than the obnoxious laws. Even in the 1980s of the United States, the way gays could be treated in state mental hospitals--not religious institutions specifically designed to change orientation mind you--was itself horrific.) This becomes a tremendous burden that haunts many.

For some reason the media makes a difference. More than one minority has said seeing their demographic shown in a positive light (without dying) were greatly inspired, improving their lives (a few well known politicians and other highly successful people point to a character of their own demographic on TV that they loved growing up saying it gave them the strength to aspire to be more than what too many in society expected of them).

I can say from my own experiences that the media has helped me work out some of my own issues (though in my case I used a lot of alternative media that wasn't mainstream which was decades ahead in acceptance of LGBT, feminism, and the like, with the added bonus of usually not being preachy about it so the "bury your gays" trope didn't affect me as much as it did others). So I understand that when people they relate to keep winding up dead (and to the point I know even straight people fear for their favorite character's life if that character comes out gay, or at least not daring to hope too much for their happiness) that it aggravates them, and may even do them harm by reinforcing the message that their life is a cursed one. Not just any one time, more like death by a thousand paper cuts as it keeps happening over and over again. You don't have to be gay or another minority to be killed, but it sure does put a bulls eye on you to the writers.

By no means does this mean that therefore Tara was better than Oz in terms of relationship, or that people should feel morally obligated to prefer Tillow over Woz. Heck, I prefer Oz over Tara, but still wished that this particular show avoided the Bury Your Gays trope, especially when they'd already used it on at least one minor character (two if you count Vampire Willow).
 

DeadlyDuo

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His departure was sadder than Tara's death to me. His last words had more meaning than Tara's.
To be fair though, Oz hadn't just been shot then almost immediately died. He had chance to think about what he wanted to say and respond to what Willow said. Tara literally said two words before dying. "Your shirt" might not be profound but it's observational. Tara wasn't even aware of what had happened before she died, she saw Willow's shirt had blood on it then she keeled over.

You don't have to be gay or another minority to be killed, but it sure does put a bulls eye on you to the writers.
Any character that is happy has a bullseye on them because for writers happy doesn't equal interesting. If a character is in a happy relationship, then inevitably they're going to deal with one of three scenarios:

1. They die.
2. Their partner dies.
3. Their partner is having an affair that the person eventually discovers and is heartbroken about.

With gay or minority, options 1 or 2 are the more likely scenario, however doesn't that kind of say that straight white characters are more likely to cheat on their partner whilst gay or minority characters are faithful to the end. Gay couples can only be permanently split up by killing one off, white characters screw up their relationships by their inability to keep their pants on.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
It really is hazardous to be Willow's other half - Oz is shot and wounded by the Order of Taraka, Tara is shot and killed by Warren and Kennedy becomes a slayer.

Her romance with Oz seemed more egalitarian - he was not a doormat like Tara and he treated her with respect, refusing to take advantage of her even when she offered. He was the first person to appreciate her as a fellow nerd, not wanting her to be any different from what she was.

With Tara, Willow insisted on being the dominant partner and subjected Tara to mind wipes and a succession of escalating pathological behaviour. I was disappointed to see Tara take her back - it could easily have ended like Pete and Debbie in "Beauty and the Beasts" where Pete killed Debbie.

And from the unpopular opinions thread - I prefer Willow with Kennedy. Kennedy did not want to pursue Willow for her skills, whether in computers or magic. She was able to keep it together when Willow morphed into Warren. She just liked to be with Willow, even though she did not gain any influence by being with her.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I prefer Willow with Kennedy.


Kennedy did not want to pursue Willow for her skills, whether in computers or magic. She was able to keep it together when Willow morphed into Warren. She just liked to be with Willow, even though she did not gain any influence by being with her.
Kennedy was using Willow as a powerplay. Note how once Willow and Kennedy begin dating, Kennedy starts showing up at Scooby meetings. Also note how whenever Willow stands up for Buffy or looks like she's about to, Kennedy jumps down her throat and has a go at her. Kennedy treats Willow like a doormat.
 
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