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Pylea

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,043
Location
Texas
Black Thorn
I hated Pylea. Don’t get me wrong I laughed. It was funny and dorky etc. Like much of Season 3 it’s funny. But like most of Season 3 the tone was IMO in stark contrast to the tone of Angel up until that point. I hated Angel going from being stupid happy/dorky to struggling with his demon to back to cracking jokes when battling Gru. I hated Cordy in this episode. I found her regressively shallow. I thought Wes and Gunn were secondary characters and that’s always sad. Although I do love Fred. After a wonderfully dark and rich Season 2, pylea felt like a weird twist in the season that appeared tacked in and disjointed and I do not enjoy it. I basically lump Pylea with AtS Season 3 which felt completely off to me. Which is why I live AtS Season 4 it’s a back to basics.
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
I hated Pylea. Don’t get me wrong I laughed. It was funny and dorky etc. Like much of Season 3 it’s funny. But like most of Season 3 the tone was IMO in stark contrast to the tone of Angel up until that point. I hated Angel going from being stupid happy/dorky to struggling with his demon to back to cracking jokes when battling Gru. I hated Cordy in this episode. I found her regressively shallow. I thought Wes and Gunn were secondary characters and that’s always sad. Although I do love Fred. After a wonderfully dark and rich Season 2, pylea felt like a weird twist in the season that appeared tacked in and disjointed and I do not enjoy it. I basically lump Pylea with AtS Season 3 which felt completely off to me. Which is why I live AtS Season 4 it’s a back to basics.
I disagree about the Cordelia Shallow part!
This showed imo she was a strong caring woman.
I found it extremely hilarious watching her be the princess but some of her moments showed much she grew! She was great imo
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Messages
4,043
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Texas
Black Thorn
I disagree about the Cordelia Shallow part!
This showed imo she was a strong caring woman.
I found it extremely hilarious watching her be the princess but some of her moments showed much she grew! She was great imo
Well I’m not the biggest Cordy fan anyway so there’s that but I did feel that she was quite self involved in this episode from what I remember.
 

caitaintdead

caiters gonna cait
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
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5,550
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Down Under
Black Thorn
I disagree about the Cordelia Shallow part!
This showed imo she was a strong caring woman.
I found it extremely hilarious watching her be the princess but some of her moments showed much she grew! She was great imo
I couldn't agree more! I thought this arc really showed just how selfless Cordelia had become. I'm not sure how many people would choose a hard life - being poor and possibly dying young - over the life she was offered in Pylea of prestige and wealth.

Lets just say - I know what my choice would be :p
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
I couldn't agree more! I thought this arc really showed just how selfless Cordelia had become. I'm not sure how many people would choose a hard life - being poor and possibly dying young - over the life she was offered in Pylea of prestige and wealth.

Lets just say - I know what my choice would be :p
Agreed & Cordelia was a deeper character than people give her credit for! She was being comedic when she was the princess! All in good fun!
Also she had a deep talk with Groo saying how she's not a princess but honestly she's become a warrior!
She changed so much from Cordelia in S1 of Buffy!
I love love love her!
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
Likewise! I'm still bitter about her character assassination in Season 4.

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,934
Black Thorn
Cordy on Buffy was much better than Cordy on Angel. At least Pylea gave us a taste of the old Cordy.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,934
Black Thorn
I liked Cordelia up until about half way through Season 3 when all of a sudden she seemed to turn from 20 to 38 overnight.
Isn't that about the same time that Joss started having more say in the show? Right before he took over showrunning duties?
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
I never put that together, but... YES.

EarthLogic

Scooby
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
1,350
Location
London, UK
Black Thorn
Lol at Angel's/DB's face when Lorne says "Mom".
I also love that you can clearly see David trying not to laugh when Numfar starts dancing.

I hated Pylea. Don’t get me wrong I laughed. It was funny and dorky etc. Like much of Season 3 it’s funny. But like most of Season 3 the tone was IMO in stark contrast to the tone of Angel up until that point. I hated Angel going from being stupid happy/dorky to struggling with his demon to back to cracking jokes when battling Gru. I hated Cordy in this episode. I found her regressively shallow. I thought Wes and Gunn were secondary characters and that’s always sad. Although I do love Fred. After a wonderfully dark and rich Season 2, pylea felt like a weird twist in the season that appeared tacked in and disjointed and I do not enjoy it. I basically lump Pylea with AtS Season 3 which felt completely off to me. Which is why I live AtS Season 4 it’s a back to basics.
I really don't see the extent of the dorkiness in S3. Sure there's some dorky levity and there are a few dud episodes, but they surround get two really heavy arcs - Darla's pregnancy and the loss/return of Connor where Angel is back to being his usual angry/broody/struggling self.

I think the point of the Pylea arc was to have everyone play their season-long issues in a fantasy realm. In L.A. the gang have been living in this difficult morally grey area all season but Pylea has the opposite effect, which is polarisation of the good and bad. If you think about it almost everyone gets to be what they want: Angel gets to be seen as a hero, Cordy is worshipped princess, Wes gets put in charge again, Gunn...I have no idea.
Of course this all comes at a price: Angel can't be a pure hero without also turning into a pure demon; Cordy can't stay a princess without losing her visions, which she realises are now an essential part of her and give her actions purpose and meaning. Wesley can't be the General unless he relinquishes his hesitancy.

It totally makes sense that this plays out in a mediaeval-esque fairy-tale realm because fairy tales and medieval fantasy tend to be defined by their black-and-white moral certainty. It's all knights and princesses and quests. and saving the day. All season we've been wishing that things would go back to the way they were, I think the point is to reinforce how even though things are edging back towards recovery, they will have to continue to work in that blurry in-between; but in contrast to what they've experienced previously in the season, it needn't be despairing. It's about finding that balance and overcoming the last shreds of vanity or self-doubt that have been holding them back. It's most significant for Angel, who gets to see both sides of his persona and realises he doesn't have to be defined by either perception of himself. Wesley puts aside his anxieties with taking the lead and actually comes up with a good plan and develops the tenacity to be willing to make sacrifices. (although this is setting up his downfall later). Cordelia chooses the life that has most value for her, realising that she's made for more than just being a movie star - although they return to this idea again in 'Birthday'. For Gunn I guess you could say he's becoming a more integrated part of the team and is learning to accept what Angel is? I can't be sure without watching the arc again - Gunn was way underused throughout the show anyway. Pylea is coda to the season which sums up everyone's journeys but in a fun way.
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
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33
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Sineya
I like it but I don't love it. I like that it's more funny and light than most of the season. I like Lorne and the introduction of Fred. But I don't like the princess thing and the Groggalug and all that part. Especially because it will lead to Cangel and I really really hate that part!
 

sk

The Overlooked One
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
3,378
Location
Sweden
Sineya
I'm not a big fan.
Can accept it as a special one-off. Just something different for them to do for fun.

But it just felt silly and didn't fit the show at all imho.

/SK
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
1,792
Black Thorn
I really enjoy Through the Looking Glass. Tim Minear's writing really stands out. But I don't feel very strongly about the rest of it. It's OK.

I have to agree with @dcai0830 on Cordelia. I thought she was funny as a princess, but I was frustrated with the way Angel and the others were so worried about her but she was not very worried about them. Yes, her decision not to give up the visions was selfless, but that didn't make up for the rest of it for me.

I really like Cordelia from when she gets the visions through the moment she accepts those clothes from Angel and immediately forgives him in "Disharmony." I respected her so much for the "We're not friends" line and was so disappointed that storyline disappeared. It was completely in character for her to take the new wardrobe, don't get me wrong, but I would have loved to see Cordelia and Angel really working toward rebuilding their friendship instead of the writers going the easy and hilarious route instead. There are definitely Cordelia moments that I appreciate after that but I don't find much of her storyline believable or particularly interesting.
 

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
I really enjoy Through the Looking Glass. Tim Minear's writing really stands out. But I don't feel very strongly about the rest of it. It's OK.

I have to agree with @dcai0830 on Cordelia. I thought she was funny as a princess, but I was frustrated with the way Angel and the others were so worried about her but she was not very worried about them. Yes, her decision not to give up the visions was selfless, but that didn't make up for the rest of it for me.

I really like Cordelia from when she gets the visions through the moment she accepts those clothes from Angel and immediately forgives him in "Disharmony." I respected her so much for the "We're not friends" line and was so disappointed that storyline disappeared. It was completely in character for her to take the new wardrobe, don't get me wrong, but I would have loved to see Cordelia and Angel really working toward rebuilding their friendship instead of the writers going the easy and hilarious route instead. There are definitely Cordelia moments that I appreciate after that but I don't find much of her storyline believable or particularly interesting.
We'll agree to disagree :D
I think Cordelia becomes an even stronger woman & a fighter in S3 and I just find her fantastic! S4 she loses herself in some sense but she's still my fave on Angel for sure & also S5's return was one of Cordelia's best episodes ever:)
 

EarthLogic

Scooby
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
1,350
Location
London, UK
Black Thorn
I really enjoy Through the Looking Glass. Tim Minear's writing really stands out. But I don't feel very strongly about the rest of it. It's OK.

I have to agree with @dcai0830 on Cordelia. I thought she was funny as a princess, but I was frustrated with the way Angel and the others were so worried about her but she was not very worried about them. Yes, her decision not to give up the visions was selfless, but that didn't make up for the rest of it for me.

I really like Cordelia from when she gets the visions through the moment she accepts those clothes from Angel and immediately forgives him in "Disharmony." I respected her so much for the "We're not friends" line and was so disappointed that storyline disappeared. It was completely in character for her to take the new wardrobe, don't get me wrong, but I would have loved to see Cordelia and Angel really working toward rebuilding their friendship instead of the writers going the easy and hilarious route instead. There are definitely Cordelia moments that I appreciate after that but I don't find much of her storyline believable or particularly interesting.
Yes 'Through the Looking Glass' is the best of the trilogy. I love Minear's writing.

As for Cordy, I can see how she would get swept in up being a princess after everything she's been through beforehand. She's had to make this huge life adjustment due to the visions, soon after which her best friend goes off the deep end and bails on her, and all the while she's still trying to hang on to her acting dream. It's pretty much hammered home in 'Belonging' that her self-esteem is in a sucky place.

I love the new clothes moment too and I don't think it's as shallow and flippant as it appears. Not only is it in character for her to accept the clothes given how she made a big deal of it before, but it actually shows that Angel acknowledges her hurt. It does initially come across as mere appeasement, but I really think it shows Angel is aware that those materialistic things did mean something to her. Also, it's so cute!
There is a sense of rebuilding friendship in their awkward interactions in the next couple of episodes where Angel is trying too hard to be helpful. I agree they could have done more with it but it's not entirely absent either.
 
L

Living Dead Boy

Guest
Okay, so I didn't like the Plyea arc. That's not to say that there wasn't fun to be had. I don't think I'll ever tire of the Numfar dance, and everyone's reaction to Lorne's head! :D It's just like others had pointed out, the shift felt pretty jarring and it didn't fit into the overall tone of season 2. Because season 2 had been so...epic, up until that point, and it had a really dark and psychologically dense feel to Angel and Darla's arc, so when Plyea happened, I kinda went....huh? The momentum was kinda lost in my opinion, almost as if a new season had started. Plus, I feel like Angel can do the dark, more adult rated fare a lot better than it could do fantasy or camp. It honestly felt Xena-esque, which is weird because I'm a fan of Xena. But Xena and Angel are two totally different shows, IMO. Maybe I have to re-watch it cause I didn't downright hate it, I just felt like it tried way too hard to do something different after they ran out of material with the Darla arc.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Rewatch it all you want it still doesn't fit the tone of the show.

PaulParmar1

Spuffy Forever
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Sineya
Okay, so I didn't like the Plyea arc. That's not to say that there wasn't fun to be had. I don't think I'll ever tire of the Numfar dance, and everyone's reaction to Lorne's head! :D It's just like others had pointed out, the shift felt pretty jarring and it didn't fit into the overall tone of season 2. Because season 2 had been so...epic, up until that point, and it had a really dark and psychologically dense feel to Angel and Darla's arc, so when Plyea happened, I kinda went....huh? The momentum was kinda lost in my opinion, almost as if a new season had started. Plus, I feel like Angel can do the dark, more adult rated fare a lot better than it could do fantasy or camp. It honestly felt Xena-esque, which is weird because I'm a fan of Xena. But Xena and Angel are two totally different shows, IMO. Maybe I have to re-watch it cause I didn't downright hate it, I just felt like it tried way too hard to do something different after they ran out of material with the Darla arc.
I think Angel is a darker show in general but for me I sometimes prefer being a lighter vibe!
S2 had such a dark vibe already that Pylea being a lot lighter was a nice shift for me!
 
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