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Reaction to "Not Fade Away"'s cliff hanger ending

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Joshua, May 28, 2016.

  1. Joshua

    Joshua Huge Spuffy Fan!

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    When you first saw "Not Fade Away", were you shocked at the cliff hanger ending? Were you disappointed Joss and Co. ended "ANGEL" with a cliff hanger and "BUFFY" had a good ending with resolved plots?
     
  2. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    No, because the endings mirrored what the shows were about.

    Buffy spent her whole time as a Slayer wishing that she was just like everyone else and have the opportunity for a normal life. 'Chosen' gave her that. (It's S8 and beyond that fudged that up.)

    Angel spends his whole time on the show knowing that the fighting never ends, he will never have a normal life, because, to him, there will never be enough that he could do to make up for what he did as Angelus. NFA reflects that, shows that, even when the show ends, Angel keeps fighting.
     
  3. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    See I actually think one thing that links the shows is that the central characters will basically go on fighting the good fight till they die or in Buffy's case retire. I don't see Chosen as the end of Buffy's narrative just than there is more closue than the conclusion to Angel. And I guess there are more options for Buffy, whereas unless Angel leaves town he was pretty much stuck with his fight.
     
  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I hated it then, and still do, and I also hate the deus ex machina bail out that Joss used in the "After The Fall" arc in the comic books. I hate cliffhangers, because they always leave me with the impression that the writers either painted themselves into a corner, and couldn't figure out a realistic way of settling the issues properly, have no respect for their viewers, or both. Having a dragon unexpectedly incinerate the opposing army, as shown in "After The Fall," merely convinced me that Joss had never had any idea whatsoever as to how to get Angel, Spike, and Illyria out of that alley alive.

    A storyteller has an obligation to his audience to finish his story, or at least leave it at a point where the current issues are settled. We all knew that Buffy and her friends weren't going to be able to retire after "Chosen" ended, but the story of Buffy and the hellmouth was concluded. A new adventure was about to be undertaken, new challenges were going to be met and overcome. "Chosen" was a good series finale.

    "Not Fade Away" was, in my opinion, nothing more than a cop out.
     
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  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    This is all fair. I mean I like it NFA more than you, partly because I don't mind the cliffhanger as a thing. But I take your point too.
     
  6. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I considered Not Fade Away to be somewhat Zoroastrian in the sense that it validated the concept of the continuous battle between good and evil. Since this is a continuous battle and later religions adopted the same idea, I see Angel as the designated warrior because the fight is what he lives for.
     
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  7. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Absolutely loved it. But I love the whole episode and it's one of my favorite Series Finales ever.
     
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  8. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I disagree. A storyteller has no obligation to his audience. He/she has an obligation to finish the story as he/she sees fit.

    Chosen was a good ending for the reasons you listed.
    Not fade away was a good ending for Angel because it was about the never ending fight, not about peaceful "what's next for me?" (I'll refrain from comments on After the fall until I've read it properly)
     
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  9. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Pretty much.

    Sadly for me there aren't words for how much I despise Chosen.

    That's why I love the ending. Because the end wasn't the point. It's just that you go to battle, period. If you happen to win there will just be another battle. And another. That's what AtS has always been about. There will always be another battle to fight.

    It also gives you something to think about. How the battle goes you can imagine for yourself. Maybe they all die. Maybe some of them won't. Maybe there will some other interference. The people who don't read comics have the clear advantage here. You could just imagine that Buffy & Co. come in with a slayer army. Maybe devine intervention. On and on you can imgine for yourself how that battle will go.
     
  10. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well I enjoyed Chosen myself, except for the fact that there had been a number of epic finale battles in previous seasons and the one in Chosen couldn't really hold a candle to some of them. IMO Not Fade Away was a more dramatic and standout finale.
     
  11. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    I didn't even really see NFA as a cliffhanger ending. It was just another day on the job, another fight. Whether they live or die isn't really relevant, it's more about the message of what Angel was about. And since they made that message clear, it's not really important how the show ends. It's not like they had some big reveal in the last 5 minutes that we'd never know the ending too. They literally ended the show for what we knew Angel to be.
     
  12. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    The first time I saw it I was disappointed because it felt like a "non-ending". I didn't know there would be comics so it felt like an unresolved cliff hanger. I was also disappointed because season 5 of angel was the only season that I really loved. The moment Spike showed up and we we got to see him interacting with Angel the show got 100% more interesting. There were other great things about season 5, for example Fred finally connecting with Wes and then becoming Illyria, Gunn becoming more than muscle, sorry, not a Cordelia fan *thinks ConCor and feels bile rise in throat* but I do like her in "you're welcome", and more Lorne is always a good thing but Spike was the best thing that could have happened to change the internal dynamics. With time I've come to realize the show ended perfectly. The fight against evil never ends, and going out at the height of battle is apropos when it comes right down to it.
     
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  13. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Without an audience, a story teller might just as well be talking to himself, which isn't necessarily all that bad unless he's trying to make a living at it. Dissatisfy enough of the audience, and he faces the real possibility of not making that living.
     
  14. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    I think it depends on the storyteller. If the teller views the story as art, then his obligation is to the art alone. If the teller views the story as a commodity, then it is how much he can charge for it that matters. Is he artist or hack? Or is he deluded about the importance of his work/art?
     
    Mr Trick likes this.
  15. nightshade

    nightshade Watcher Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I didn't like it at the time, but now I do.

    Out of curiosity, how many who love it watched it as it aired and loved it then?
     
  16. Anointed One

    Anointed One The Soul Controller

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    I watched it as it aired but didn't know it was the series finale. I couldn't really enjoy Season 5 as I had only watched one episode of Angel prior to that. I didn't get into Buffy 'til Season 6 but FX was airing reruns of the older seasons. They even had a marathon on Thanksgiving in 2001 so I had gotten familiar with the show and it's characters. Angel on the other hand only started airing reruns after the series ended. When I watched the previous seasons then Season 5, I felt the finale was fitting but came too soon.
     
  17. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I just rewatched this. I found it more emotional this time round. I actually like the ambiguous ending, it leaves it up to the viewer as to what happens next (unless you read the comic books). It could never have resolved itself in one episode. Had the series not been cancelled, we may have had a different Season 5 finale, and more build up to the Black Thorn's demise, as it stood, we got the best they could do at such short notice of cancellation.

    From the Buffy wiki on the episode:
     
  18. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    The ending was very Zoroastrian in the sense that it sees the battle between good and evil to be continuous (Zoroastrianism was the first religion to see things that way). We don't see an end to the fight because there isn't one.

    I thought "Not Fade Away" worked well, especially in comparison to "Chosen" in Buffy where we are asked to believe that a ridiculous plan worked. Angel identified the group he wanted to annihilate, set a plan in motion, got buy-in from all the main cast and succeeded in executing his plan with the loss of Wesley and Gunn (although we don't see the finale for Gunn). I have been a project manager in my working life and I can say that the old aviator's saying of "plan your flight, fly your plan" is the only thing that could be expected to work. Angel does this. Buffy has the worst possible plan with the most unbelievable execution and the idea that something actually gets resolved in Buffy's favour is a bit much to believe.
     
  19. Angel6

    Angel6 Townie

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    I was just thinking about great TV finales today and remembered the finale to Angel and had to catch myself from tearing up.

    I thought it was beautiful, and although at the time I was devastated and didn't like the end that much I've completely changed my mind.

    When I first saw it I wanted to believe they got out of it. But now looking back on it, it's clear to me they didn't, and that's what makes it special.

    As a character Angel made the ultimate sacrifice because it was the right thing to do. It was the perfect way for the character to go out. I hate the comics, and I'm a massive comic book fan. Mainly because of the cheap way in which this beautiful ending is undermined if he lives to tell the tale.
     
    thrasherpix: I like "good deaths" in stories, too. Maybe I just came to terms with death a bit too early that makes me different that way as most I know don't like those kinds of stories.
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  20. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    It's okay to me. But as I've said before, other than some quibbles, I'd have preferred it if Buffy had been the one to have 5 seasons and that Angel had 7.