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Revelations - Angel, Xander and Faith

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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This episode should have been titled "Misunderstandings."

What do you think about Xander being so eager to join Faith in attempting to kill Angel? Was he out of line? Was it understandable?
If he had not found and stayed with Giles, how might have things played out? Would Xander had helped Faith or hindered her? Would he have gotten hurt?
What about him assuming Angel hurt Giles? Was that justified or was Buffy right? Did his hatred of Angel and perhaps jealousy make him act irrationally?
What about Faith? Assuming Angel hurt Ms. Post?

Was Willow right? That Buffy can't think straight when it's regarding Angel? Was she really willing to kill Faith to save Angel? Or was she just stalling for time?

Ms. Post is the real villain in this episode, and a pretty good one at that. She had them all fooled.

Feel free to answer these questions or ask your own, but just comment. Let's discuss this episode.
 

Miss Muffet

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Sineya
I want to be annoyed that Xander told everyone except Buffy that he had seen Buffy and Angel together, but I can't really because he wasn't in the library during the FHT scene where Buffy revealed Angel was cured.
I hate the argument scene, but that's mostly because I hate when the Scoobies argue, and I can understand both sides.
 

thrasherpix

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I do understand Xander's point of view and why he was upset. I don't think he intended to manipulate Faith into killing Angel as some do, but once he realized that was what Faith decided (on her own, for her own feelings of betrayal similar to Xander's) he went along, but still recognized that Angelus would not have attacked Giles in that way, and preferred to save Giles than see Angel killed.

Ms. Post was a master manipulator, an excellent one-shot villain that shows one doesn't have to be a killing machine to be a threat.

I do believe Willow was right that Buffy couldn't (and wonder if she could ever) think straight about Angel...as for if she'd have killed Faith or was stalling for time, I'd say yes to both. Buffy's inability to think straight about her men is an unfortunate flaw she inherited from her mother.

And her excuse for why she didn't say simply went out the window over her smooching Angel (no wonder she tried to change the subject when that was brought up). The Scoobies were all correct to be concerned, and Buffy deserved every harsh word Giles spoke to her (to her credit, she knew it, and tried to make amends).
 

Bop

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I think Xander had a right to be upset that Buffy kept Angel being back a secret (and that she was apparently being reckless by kissing him). But I think when Xander takes it that far to let Faith believe it's right to kill Angel- and to actually cheer her on, that's wrong. Xander is the one with the experience of Angel and Angelus, Faith's the one with no experience of either so I would call it pretty close to manipulation if not exactly that to give her the impression it's the right thing to do and not give her the full story because if he did he knows she might not kill Angel. Xander only slightly comes to his senses once he sees Giles and that's only because he doesn't think it's Angelus' style not being he doesn't think Angel is dangerous. It's too little too late.
 

Antho

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Complex situations. I think both Xander and Buffy are right and wrong. When I watch « Revelations »in season 3 I like to think about « Selfless » in season 7. Both episodes are kinda alike for me. What is intriguing to see for me when comparing the two episodes , are the reactions of Buffy and Xander because they kinda exchange their places in the situations.

In « Revelations » Xander wanted to kill Angel because he thought that was the right thing to do, that Angel cannot be forgiven or saved. Buffy in other hand was still in love with Angel. She still believed in him, that he could be saved and have his redemption. And she probably still felt some culpability because What happened with Angelus what kinda her fault since she is the one that kinda awaken him. She also feels responsible to have sent Angel in hell for centuries. She believed a new chance was possible for Angel.

In « Selfless » Buffy and Xander change their places. Buffy wants to kill Anya because for her Anya has crossed a line and she goes too far and for Buffy that’s too late for Anya.
Xander is this time the one that thinks that there is still hope for Anya. He believes in her, in a redemption for her. And like Buffy felt responsible for Angel, Xander also feels some culpability towards Anya because If she became a vengeance demon again that’s because he hurted her by leaving her the day of their wedding. Of course Anya is responsible of her own actions/choices but I think Xander acknowledged he has some parts of responsibilities and feels culpable in some ways.

Theses two situations perfectly show in my eyes that sometimes the perfect solution doesn’t exist. There isn’t a perfect way to act. Face to the situation, we will act differently according the place we have in the story and of course we can’t forget that feelings, and particularly love feelings, always obscure judgements !
 

Plasma

The Second Sister
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Black Thorn
This episode should have been titled "Misunderstandings."

What do you think about Xander being so eager to join Faith in attempting to kill Angel? Was he out of line? Was it understandable?
If he had not found and stayed with Giles, how might have things played out? Would Xander had helped Faith or hindered her? Would he have gotten hurt?
What about him assuming Angel hurt Giles? Was that justified or was Buffy right? Did his hatred of Angel and perhaps jealousy make him act irrationally?
What about Faith? Assuming Angel hurt Ms. Post?

Was Willow right? That Buffy can't think straight when it's regarding Angel? Was she really willing to kill Faith to save Angel? Or was she just stalling for time?

Ms. Post is the real villain in this episode, and a pretty good one at that. She had them all fooled.

Feel free to answer these questions or ask your own, but just comment. Let's discuss this episode.

1) Xander was absolutely justified. Angel had spent a good amount of time last season trying to terrorize and murder them. Wombo combo with the fact that Buffy’s judgement on Angelus was inconsistent and complicated (at the start at least) and it makes perfect sense to me. He absolutely would have helped, especially because he didn’t like Captain Forehead to begin with. The whole Giles incident makes sense because the only person that they could easily point to was Angel, given that Post’s villainy was something they hadn’t considered or encountered prior.

2. Faith assuming Angel hurt Post is rooted in her desperation to have an approving parental figure. Faith’s trauma at losing her first Watcher is likely from the fact that the Watcher was supportive and helpful to her. Having Post arrive, validate and help Faith, and then seeing her hurt would just bring back the fears from her initial Watcher’s death. It makes sense that she wouldn’t want to lose another person who actually appeared to like her and want her.

3. Yes Willow is right. Buffy could have saved everyone the trouble of Angelus several times but made choices (conscious or otherwise) not to. Even when he was Angel her duty was to kill him, as he is a vampire. Their complicated romance clouded that fact and it made Buffy unable to handle his turn until she had truly come to terms with it.

4. The funny thing is that Post actually is a terrible villain. The reason she is able to succeed and fool everyone is simply because they are preoccupied with personal drama. Even Giles mentions that the Council sent out a memo about Post going bad but he either forgot it or forgot to read it. The whole theme of the episode is that the Scoobies need to look past their drama in order to better perform their jobs, which is true given the threat that the Mayor poses. Post is simply a vehicle for them to learn that, but she is a good vehicle.
 

thrasherpix

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Isn't it interesting that Post is portrayed as a master manipulator and likely psychopath who has screwed with Faith repeatedly to alienate her from everyone else (and tricked Giles and Angel on top of everyone else), and then is the one to tell Faith that Angel attacked her and Buffy is blinded by love, but a teenage boy who displayed a moment's bitterness speaking his mind as opposed to calculating manipulation like Post is somehow to blame for Faith's behavior in this episode.

If that's covered in Buffy studies, I'd love to hear about it.
 
Bop
Bop
Xander is the only player in the episode who wasn't being manipulated

AlphaFoxtrot

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That seems reasonable, Xander doesn't trust Angel, and thinks Buffy is a horrible judge of character as far as her choice in men goes.
 

thrasherpix

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On top of that, Faith learned Buffy had lied to her about Angel, not giving them much credit with her (on top of everything else, legite and otherwise).

And, maybe, there was at least a bit of jealousy in addition to feeling betrayed by Buffy, which is why when Xander changes his tune because of Giles that Faith isn't willing to listen. Not to say that Faith has absolutely no responsibility for her own actions (though I do think--given her own perspective that lacks the knowledge of the viewing audience--that her actions and beliefs were understandable).

But hey, when it comes to responsibility and ability to affect events and other people, maybe smart, educated, life experience woman < teenage boy flunking math with perpetual foot in mouth. (My last statement is sarcasm, by the way.)
 

Tome

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- Faith: Not at fault. She got played by Gwendolyn, and Xander just reinforced her fears. Also, Buffy not explaining to her the situation with Angel left Faith with a lack of crucial information.

- Buffy: Can be blamed for giving in to her feelings for Angel after what happened in season 2. Also, she should have explained to Faith the Angel/Angelus conundrum. As usual, Buffy’s downfall is her reticence to communicate and open up.

- Xander: He was fully in the wrong for leading on Faith toward believing Angel was dangerous without explaining to her the nuances. However, he was right about Buffy being a bit selfish, and he did use his brain when he found Giles unconscious.

- Gwendolyn: The real guilty party. She only had one goal in mind… the glove. Everybody else were tools to achieve it.

- Giles: Should have been aware of the memo. Come on, Rupert.
 
Bop
Bop
I don't think there actually was a memo lol

AlphaFoxtrot

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Well, you have to remember, Giles is a field agent, the probability that he gets turned into a vampire, which has access to all of his knowledge about the council is very high. Basic operational security would have all contact with him done through one handler, and information provided to him is on a need to know basis. The names of watchers should never be disclosed in written correspondence. There should also be a spy team watching him, waiting to secure his most valuable records, should be fall. I don't think any of this was taken into consideration by the writers, but I think what we are seeing is an intelligence failure. Like, there was a memo about "G.P.", but he thought it was about Gaylord Postum.
 

Kendar

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Here's an importnt factor to consider. Given what we know of Angelus, it's certainly in the realm of possibility that when he returns he is faking having his soul as part of a game/plan.

And before anyone says we saw the eye flash at the end of two, that's no guarantee that he kept it while he was in hell. He can lose it by experiencing perfect happiness, but I bet there are things that can take it from him. That's certainly established in Angel season 4.
 

Bop

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I was watching a few scenes from Revelations today for something else and it really struck me how Faith seemed so unsettled and kind of anxious throughout a lot of the episode and I'm not really sure what the reason for her behaviour was but for example in the scene with her and Buffy walking through town Faith's touching everything they walk by- a bin, a tree. In the scene with Gwendolyn Post in the motel room Faith still seems pretty erratic, she answers the door with a stake and she fiddles with the stake throughout that scene. This isn't uncommon for Faith but I did think it was more obvious for some reason in this episode.

All this is to say that combined with the actual manipulation from Post Faith was vulnerable so it's easier to understand why she went for Angel.
 

Taake

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I feel about this kind of like I feel about Giles going behind Buffy’s back to kill Spike in s7.

Both Giles and Xander ostensibly have ”good” reasons, and there are some to argue for, however, they both act patronizingly and judgementally towards Buffy. And act as though their reasons are unclouded by irrational emotions. Which I would argue they’re not.

Basically I hate both of them in this situation, because they’re making irreversible end of life decisions for Buffy .
Yeah, they may have the excuse that Buffy is a fool for love, however, conspiring behind the back of your friend to hurt someone she loves… is a great way to lose that friend.

They can hide behind ”doing it for the greater good”, but really it just comes down to them not trusting Buffy and thinking they are better than her.

Making these kind of decisions behind her back and putting it in motion infuriates me so much. I find it so patronizing against Buffy.

Could she communicate better? Sure. Is the solution to kill someone she loves -no.
 
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