• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Riley in As You Were

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
15,439
Age
72
Location
rome, georgia
Poor old Riley , his character was the first to suffer so we could have Spuffy
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I never liked Riley before there ever was a hint of Spuffy.

Why did Buffy get in touch with Riley to get out Spikes chip but not tell him about the thousands of Turkey hams and her great plan of taking a bunch of girls to kill them?
Riley was the only person who Buffy knew who might have any way of helping Spike. It was the Initiative who put the chip in his head in the first place, so her logic there is understandable.

As to why Buffy kept the general goings on in Sunnydale at that moment secret, why she didn't try and recruit help from Riley or his teammates, or, for that matter, anyone who she thought might be willing to come, including Angel and his crew and every benevolent demon in the area, I have no clue, unless she feared that bringing in outsiders might in some way undermine her authority. Not the best of decisions on her part, if you ask me.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
Do you know my views on Spike and Buffy? Please enlighten me if you do. I don’t think I’ve had a conversation with you at all since you’ve been here.

Secondly, yeah I know it didn’t happen because Sarah has said many times that she never agreed with the idea of her character getting together with Spike. She loves JM as person, but she thought it went against who Buffy was fundamentally as a character. Check out interviews , use google. It’s not a secret. James Marsters himself also said he never thought it was realistic, and now as a father himself he would rather his daughter go out with Riley. He spoke about it recently on a Podcast called Slayerfest 98 for the episode Fool For Love. Sarah is HUGE Bangel shipper actually.

As for Riley and Sam, I find it much more realistic he met someone else who appreciates him and allows him to love her and who he can love back without a ton of baggage involved , then the idea of him orchestrating a false marriage , military black op style operation a year and a half later just to stick it a undead vampire for...reasons? That’s retarded. It’s ten times easier to just kill Spike. That kind of conspiracy is QAnon level of ridiculous. He even decides the next season to provide help and get Spikes chip out.

Why this need to Vilify Riley anyway? Spuffy wins. Riley is married, in a different country. Spuffy spends seasons together, happy . If anything, Riley and Buffy is a great example of healthy , failed relationship in the buffyverse that benefited both partners.
Fair enough, what are your views on Spike and Buffy then ?

Spuffy may have won but was done in the worst way possible. Whether it was writers calling the fans serial killer lovers or joyless sex in alley or Joss himself putting in the creepy anal sex balcony scene (Steve Deknight confirmed this) down to the AR to say to fans, look Spike is a bad guy you shouldn't root for him. Hell even on Ats S5 Joss had Spike have sex with Harmony which even David Fury (no spuffy fan) was against. The writers never wanted Spuffy and it was the equivalent to having teeth pulled for them.
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,275
Age
32
Fair enough, what are your views on Spike and Buffy then ?

Spuffy may have won but was done in the worst way possible. Whether it was writers calling the fans serial killer lovers or joyless sex in alley or Joss himself putting in the creepy anal sex balcony scene (Steve Deknight confirmed this) down to the AR to say to fans, look Spike is a bad guy you shouldn't root for him. Hell even on Ats S5 Joss had Spike have sex with Harmony which even David Fury (no spuffy fan) was against. The writers never wanted Spuffy and it was the equivalent to having teeth pulled for them.
I’m a Spike fan first before I am a Spuffy fan. And the things I enjoy about the Spuffy relationship has more to do with character development and the interesting idea of not only redemption through love, but all the pathos of a soullless creature actually loving a
Being of light. It sounds so cheesy in those words doesn’t it? But when you really look at the bigger picture, it’s such a fascinating idea that gets introduced . This vampire literally does these selfless acts all because he genuinely loves another, without having a soul, yet, he also causes her unimaginable pain. In the mythology we are given, that should be impossible, but it clearly isn’t. Even the fact that he goes and gets a soul should have opened up a plethora of ideas about the complexity of demons . Yet we shouldn’t be surprised, since we have seen this before with his devotion to Drusilla.

What the problem seems to be is that a lot of the audience seems to forget that he is still a monster. He has killed people. He has tried to kill Buffy. He is literally a serial killer who just happens to love her. Bonnie and Clyde loved each other too and that didn’t make them nice people. I may love Spike but I recognize the fact that there is something problematic about Buffy being with him while he has no soul. At the very least, if she had decided to make a statement and wanted to be with him, she should have just done it. Just do it. Just make Spike an anti hero and be done with it. But the show still went with Spike the villain angle and didn’t change it.

I have written a lot of defenses of the Spuffy relationship in season 6. I lay the blame at the feet of them both. The fact remains however that Buffy is suffering from depression and unstable mental health. She is very clearly using Spike as a crutch and it is a very destructive relationship. Spike doesn’t have the mental fortitude to resist her. He loves her. He finally has a chance to show his love and be there for her. He will take whatever she gives him. But it extremely unhealthy and violent for the both of them and ends in just as violently.

And yet somehow...people are mad that Riley
Shows up and gives Buffy a pep talk??? Riley is accused of sabotaging this wonderful, beautiful relationship? If you look at this episode from unbiased eyes, this is a good thing for Buffy. How many more times can she say this relationship is killing her? How much more can she be depressed and unhappy? You see the change almost immediately afterwards . And as horrible as Seeing Red is, it ends up with Spike getting a soul and Spuffy becoming a real thing in the comics.

Spike does better in ATS imo. He spends time away from Buffy and grows up. He has time to accumulate to his soul with an actual adult vampire who has lived with one for over a century and gets to establish a purpose that doesn’t revolve around a blonde vampire slayer. Then they reunite. Not bad.

This has gone off topic so I shouldn’t say much more.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Spike doesn’t have the mental fortitude to resist her.
Not only doesn't he, but I don't think he would be any happier if he did. Spike is almost always miserable. He falls in love with three unattainable women, and he is only happy during those few times they return his affection. When he is alone, he distracts himself by drinking, fighting or taking his anger out on other women, such as Harmony.

Buffy may sometimes me less than noble in the way she deals with Spike, but she did not make him the way she is. She is not the cause of his pain. If she rejected him, he would either continue to stalk her, go on a destructive bender or repeat his pattern of doomed romance with another woman.

Even with a soul, Spike must still learn to outgrow William's emotional immaturity if he wants to be happy. A soul makes that possible, but William was already an adult when he died, so it is hardly a given that he would be able to do that.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29
If anything, Riley and Buffy is a great example of healthy , failed relationship in the buffyverse that benefited both partners.
I disagree on the healthy. Riley was definitely displaying "red flag" behaviour in regards to Buffy. I do agree though that going their separate ways was beneficial for them both, particularly Buffy in the long run.

I hate Spuffy and the way that became Spike's sole storyline, however at least it never tried to pretend to be something other than it was. It never masquerades as this wholesome relationship unlike Briley. Season 6 Buffy would've been Riley's perfect Buffy because she would've "needed" him. It's ironic that Riley is the one that helps Buffy try and regain control of her life by breaking up with Spike, because if Riley had been the one in a relationship with her, she'd still be stuck in a relationship with him.

He falls in love with three unattainable women, and he is only happy during those few times they return his affection.
Spike was with Dru for over a century so I wouldn't call her "unattainable" and it is clear that she did love him in return, hence why his "betrayal" hurt so much. The whole Dru/Angelus dynamic is extremely complicated and the show didn't take the time to explore that properly. What is clear though is that, even with Angelus on the scene, Dru didn't stop caring about Spike.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
The whole Dru/Angelus dynamic is extremely complicated and the show didn't take the time to explore that properly.
Yeee—s, that's too bad that they did not do that, because If they had done that, then we would have known.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Angelus took advantage of Drusilla.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
I disagree on the healthy. Riley was definitely displaying "red flag" behaviour in regards to Buffy. I do agree though that going their separate ways was beneficial for them both, particularly Buffy in the long run.

I hate Spuffy and the way that became Spike's sole storyline, however at least it never tried to pretend to be something other than it was. It never masquerades as this wholesome relationship unlike Briley. Season 6 Buffy would've been Riley's perfect Buffy because she would've "needed" him. It's ironic that Riley is the one that helps Buffy try and regain control of her life by breaking up with Spike, because if Riley had been the one in a relationship with her, she'd still be stuck in a relationship with him.



Spike was with Dru for over a century so I wouldn't call her "unattainable" and it is clear that she did love him in return, hence why his "betrayal" hurt so much. The whole Dru/Angelus dynamic is extremely complicated and the show didn't take the time to explore that properly. What is clear though is that, even with Angelus on the scene, Dru didn't stop caring about Spike.
She had multiple affairs with Angelus and left Spike twice after that (Chaos/Fungus demons) . She only went back to him in Crush after Angel set her on fire. Like Spike said, that suddenly made her all nostalgic :rolleyes:
Face it even if Spike had gone back with Dru, she only would've left him further down the line again.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29
She had multiple affairs with Angelus and left Spike twice after that (Chaos/Fungus demons) . She only went back to him in Crush after Angel set her on fire. Like Spike said, that suddenly made her all nostalgic :rolleyes:
Face it even if Spike had gone back with Dru, she only would've left him further down the line again.
Even with Angelus on the scene, Dru was still sleeping with a wheelchair bound Spike, as Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access" in Season 2. The Angelus/Dru dynamic is complicated. He uses her as a bed warmer when Darla's not around then tosses her aside when Darla turns up again. I think Angelus trained Dru to respond to him in that way, another twisted way of his to corrupt the once "chaste and pure" woman he drove to insanity. Dru can't stand him when he's Angel yet she's at his beck and call when he's Angelus. I think Spike's reaction also supports this theory. At no point does he blame Dru, he lays all the blame at Angelus' door, yet when she does actually cheat on him with the Chaos demon then he is quick to call her out on it.

Dru's role in Crush was purely for Spike to reject her in favour of Spuffy because Spuffy can't stand on its own two feet and has to destroy another ship in order to fly unimpeded. Also the FFL Sprusilla break up flashback is a retcon of what Spike said happened in Lovers Walk. Their break up was retconned to be all about Spuffy rather than Spike's "betrayal" of allying with Buffy to take down Angelus (even though it could be argued Spike mainly did what he did to protect Dru. As he said "there's no deal without Dru.")
 
K
katmobile
Dru wants to have her cake and eat it, sure she's conditioned and broken and I don't blame her but as I've said before power lies with the sire. The break up wasn't retconned

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
Even with Angelus on the scene, Dru was still sleeping with a wheelchair bound Spike, as Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access" in Season 2. The Angelus/Dru dynamic is complicated. He uses her as a bed warmer when Darla's not around then tosses her aside when Darla turns up again. I think Angelus trained Dru to respond to him in that way, another twisted way of his to corrupt the once "chaste and pure" woman he drove to insanity. Dru can't stand him when he's Angel yet she's at his beck and call when he's Angelus. I think Spike's reaction also supports this theory. At no point does he blame Dru, he lays all the blame at Angelus' door, yet when she does actually cheat on him with the Chaos demon then he is quick to call her out on it.

Dru's role in Crush was purely for Spike to reject her in favour of Spuffy because Spuffy can't stand on its own two feet and has to destroy another ship in order to fly unimpeded. Also the FFL Sprusilla break up flashback is a retcon of what Spike said happened in Lovers Walk. Their break up was retconned to be all about Spuffy rather than Spike's "betrayal" of allying with Buffy to take down Angelus (even though it could be argued Spike mainly did what he did to protect Dru. As he said "there's no deal without Dru.")
Spikey has always been a fool for love. As he admits in Becoming he just wanted it like it was before Angelus came back. As Buffy says his Girlfriends a big hoe. Yes Angelus treated her bad but Dru let's him.
It was always like that. Wasnt the original intention for Angelus to kill Spike and take his place. I doubt Dru would've been to cut up over that.

Knowing David Furys views I can assure you 100% that episode was not about furthering Spuffy. The exact opposite in fact. Dru in Crush was using him because she wanted him to come back with her to LA to help her bring Angelus back. The last thing Spike would ever want. She would've know that Angelus would've killed Spike the second he appeared. Like I say she was using him.

One thing that is never mentioned is Spike's look of shock then hate he gives to Dru after she kills that couple in the bronze. By that time Buffy had clearly rejected him, so it wasn't about her. I think it was more that despite the attitude/dance etc, he and Dru had moved on from each other.
 
D
Dora
It did not stop Spike draining the female victim or try to kill again in S6

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29
Spikey has always been a fool for love. As he admits in Becoming he just wanted it like it was before Angelus came back. As Buffy says his Girlfriends a big hoe. Yes Angelus treated her bad but Dru let's him.
That's a rickety bridge you're standing on there. Drusilla is Angelus' victim his "masterpiece". If Angelus trained her to react to him in that way, then she's stuck because she's just doing as she's told. When you look at the dynamic within the Whirlwind, Dru follows Darla and Angelus. It's probably a hierarchy thing but also Angelus drove her insane, and Dru's insanity prevents her from going against her "family" hence why Spike's "betrayal" hurt so much as he was betraying the family. Dru's exact words when Angelus first returns are "we're family again".

To say Dru "lets" Angelus treat her badly is like saying Buffy "lets" Spike stalk her. There is nothing the women can do about it, or, by your logic, there is something they can do but they choose to let it carry on in which case Buffy is equally culpable for Spike stalking her because she "lets" him do it.

It was always like that. Wasnt the original intention for Angelus to kill Spike and take his place. I doubt Dru would've been to cut up over that.
Again, if Angelus trained Dru from the word go to respond to him in that way, then she's kind of stuck. She might not even consider there being an alternative. Also if Angelus had used operant conditioning on her then Dru's behaviour has been taught and it would take therapy for her to unlearn that behaviour.

Spike was originally supposed to be killed off but proved so popular that he was only injured instead. Lovers Walk was originally supposed to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so it was rewritten for Spike to come back alone.

Dru clearly demonstrates affection for Spike whilst he's injured, and even with Angelus on the scene, she's still affectionate towards Spike and continues to sleep with him as Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access". It is a common misconception that Dru just ditches Spike when Angelus shows up when the truth is that she is sleeping with BOTH men.

Knowing David Furys views I can assure you 100% that episode was not about furthering Spuffy. The exact opposite in fact. Dru in Crush was using him because she wanted him to come back with her to LA to help her bring Angelus back. The last thing Spike would ever want. She would've know that Angelus would've killed Spike the second he appeared. Like I say she was using him.
I disagree. Spike's sole storyline from Season 5 onwards was about Spuffy. Everything he did was in the name of Spuffy. Drusilla was brought back so that Spike could reject her in favour of Spuffy to "prove" that Buffy was the new love of Spike's life. Like I said Spuffy had to end Sprusilla once and for all in order to fly unimpeded. What better way to do that than have Spike reject Drusilla for Buffy.

One thing that is never mentioned is Spike's look of shock then hate he gives to Dru after she kills that couple in the bronze. By that time Buffy had clearly rejected him, so it wasn't about her. I think it was more that despite the attitude/dance etc, he and Dru had moved on from each other.
I disagree. I think Spike's "look" was one of conflict. He still drank from the dead girl. He wanted to be the old Spike he was when he was with Dru but he'd changed by that point. When he ditches Harmony and she says "Why? Because she's back?", he replies "No, because I am". Spike is trying to behave like he used too, when Dru directs his attention to the couple, he knows what she's thinking and he goes along with her. Spike wants to go back to the way he used to be but he can't because he isn't that guy anymore as a result of the chip and Buffy's influence.



Also Spike doesn't hate Dru. The whole point of threatening to stake Dru, someone who means a lot to him, was to prove to Buffy that he loves her and would do anything for her. If Spike hated Dru, then the gesture would be meaningless.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest

Angel does not treat Drusilla badly at all. He gives her a Valentine's present, he compliments her and courts her. Drusilla is amused by the bickering between Angel and Spike, and she is very happy to have her daddy back. Just look at the orgasmic sigh she makes when Angel plays with her skirt. Angel may be more disingenuous in his affection, but the way he acts towards her mirrors Spike's.

Drusilla may in her subtle way be the most powerful member of the Whirlwind. She can act seemingly submissive to Angel and Spike at times, but they spend most of their time pleasing and impressing her, not the other way around. And Drusilla has no problem taking either of them on, and she seems to match them well in strength and skill.

Drusilla's relationship to Darla is also ambiguous. In "Reunion," Drusilla is begging Darla to be her grandmother again and restore their family, but in "Reprise," Drusilla starts taunting Darla about her lingering love for Angel.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29

Angel does not treat Drusilla badly at all. He gives her a Valentine's present, he compliments her and courts her. Drusilla is amused by the bickering between Angel and Spike, and she is very happy to have her daddy back. Just look at the orgasmic sigh she makes when Angel plays with her skirt. Angel may be more disingenuous in his affection, but the way he acts towards her mirrors Spike's.
A lot of that was done to wind Spike up but it could also be a status thing. Spike was the leader of the vampire group, and as Spike's girlfriend, Dru would also hold a high status within the group. Angelus then comes in and asserts his dominance over Spike by usurping Spike's leadership position and trying to take "Spike's girl" as well. Dru actually undermines Angelus' position in a way by continuing to sleep with Spike as well. Angelus tries to downplay this by trying to keep Dru and Spike apart without making a big scene but its clear it irks him that he doesn't have sole access to Dru.

Drusilla may in her subtle way be the most powerful member of the Whirlwind. She can act seemingly submissive to Angel and Spike at times, but they spend most of their time pleasing and impressing her, not the other way around. And Drusilla has no problem taking either of them on, and she seems to match them well in strength and skill.

Drusilla's relationship to Darla is also ambiguous. In "Reunion," Drusilla is begging Darla to be her grandmother again and restore their family, but in "Reprise," Drusilla starts taunting Darla about her lingering love for Angel.
Drusilla can hold her own in a fight when she needs to but she also got tossed about by Darla and it was only her breaking down in tears that caused Darla to comfort her. I think the rest of the Whirlwind are quite protective of Dru as they see her as their most vulnerable member. However, Dru isn't as necessarily vulnerable as she lets on and knows how to elicit sympathy from others. She's smarter than she appears and it's interesting that Angelus backs down during BB&B rather than fighting her.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
A lot of that was done to wind Spike up but it could also be a status thing. Spike was the leader of the vampire group, and as Spike's girlfriend, Dru would also hold a high status within the group. Angelus then comes in and asserts his dominance over Spike by usurping Spike's leadership position and trying to take "Spike's girl" as well. Dru actually undermines Angelus' position in a way by continuing to sleep with Spike as well. Angelus tries to downplay this by trying to keep Dru and Spike apart without making a big scene but its clear it irks him that he doesn't have sole access to Dru.
You are undermining your own point here. The fact that Drusilla sleeps with both Spike and Angel suggests that she does as she pleases. Angel asserts himself in front of Spike by openly flirting with Drusilla, but he never tells Drusilla to stop sleeping with Angel. Likewise, Spike froths at Angel, but he never asks Drusilla to be faithful. Everything suggests that Drusilla cannot be coerced, but she can be seduced.

And there is no evidence of this brainwashing business. Angelus broke Drusilla's mind. He did not remould it or turn her into a Pavlovian dog. It is implied that Spike understands Drusilla's madness much better than Angel does, as he knows when she is genuinely having visions and when she is just faking.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Considering Spike was hurt by his girlfriend's infidelity, I would imagine that they have fought about it. Just not onscreen.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
That's a rickety bridge you're standing on there. Drusilla is Angelus' victim his "masterpiece". If Angelus trained her to react to him in that way, then she's stuck because she's just doing as she's told. When you look at the dynamic within the Whirlwind, Dru follows Darla and Angelus. It's probably a hierarchy thing but also Angelus drove her insane, and Dru's insanity prevents her from going against her "family" hence why Spike's "betrayal" hurt so much as he was betraying the family. Dru's exact words when Angelus first returns are "we're family again".

To say Dru "lets" Angelus treat her badly is like saying Buffy "lets" Spike stalk her. There is nothing the women can do about it, or, by your logic, there is something they can do but they choose to let it carry on in which case Buffy is equally culpable for Spike stalking her because she "lets" him do it.



Again, if Angelus trained Dru from the word go to respond to him in that way, then she's kind of stuck. She might not even consider there being an alternative. Also if Angelus had used operant conditioning on her then Dru's behaviour has been taught and it would take therapy for her to unlearn that behaviour.

Spike was originally supposed to be killed off but proved so popular that he was only injured instead. Lovers Walk was originally supposed to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so it was rewritten for Spike to come back alone.

Dru clearly demonstrates affection for Spike whilst he's injured, and even with Angelus on the scene, she's still affectionate towards Spike and continues to sleep with him as Angelus refers to her as giving Spike "pity access". It is a common misconception that Dru just ditches Spike when Angelus shows up when the truth is that she is sleeping with BOTH men.



I disagree. Spike's sole storyline from Season 5 onwards was about Spuffy.
Everything he did was in the name of Spuffy. Drusilla was brought back so that Spike could reject her in favour of Spuffy to "prove" that Buffy was the new love of Spike's life. Like I said Spuffy had to end Sprusilla once and for all in order to fly unimpeded. What better way to do that than have Spike reject Drusilla for Buffy.



I disagree. I think Spike's "look" was one of conflict. He still drank from the dead girl. He wanted to be the old Spike he was when he was with Dru but he'd changed by that point. When he ditches Harmony and she says "Why? Because she's back?", he replies "No, because I am". Spike is trying to behave like he used too, when Dru directs his attention to the couple, he knows what she's thinking and he goes along with her. Spike wants to go back to the way he used to be but he can't because he isn't that guy anymore as a result of the chip and Buffy's influence.



Also Spike doesn't hate Dru. The whole point of threatening to stake Dru, someone who means a lot to him, was to prove to Buffy that he loves her and would do anything for her. If Spike hated Dru, then the gesture would be meaningless.
I can guarantee you 110% that was not Furys intention with the episode. How do I know, because before the episode aired he did an interview where he literally spelt it and accused Spuffy fans of being serial killer lovers.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29
I can guarantee you 110% that was not Furys intention with the episode.
It was probably not the writers' intention to send the message that Buffy should tolerate Riley's shitty behaviour in Into The Woods. Alas, that is the message that was sent.

Intent is meaningless when it comes to consequences. People don't intend to run other people over with their cars but it happens.

Fury probably didn't intend for Crush to push Spuffy but it did. What else was he really expecting when he has Spike reject Drusilla in the name of proclaiming his love for Buffy.

Also, it's not just Spuffy fans that say Crush was pushing Spuffy.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
It was probably not the writers' intention to send the message that Buffy should tolerate Riley's shitty behaviour in Into The Woods. Alas, that is the message that was sent.

Intent is meaningless when it comes to consequences. People don't intend to run other people over with their cars but it happens.

Fury probably didn't intend for Crush to push Spuffy but it did. What else was he really expecting when he has Spike reject Drusilla in the name of proclaiming his love for Buffy.

Also, it's not just Spuffy fans that say Crush was pushing Spuffy.
S5 was very up in the air when it came to Spike and Buffy. It would literally change from episode to episode depending on the writer. If you'll notice that it was Fury who introduced the sweater sniffing in Shadow.

To me what made Crush as an episode was the acting and the directing for that episode.
The script was anvil like what with the (butchered) Quasimodos motive discussion and how you can't have a happy ending when the guy is all bumpy.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,898
Age
29
@katmobile The break up was retconned. What Spike said happened in Lovers Walk to two separate characters is not what happened in Fool For Love. Spike was not lying in Lovers Walk either as his emotional responses back up what he was saying eg Dru telling him they could still be friends.

Because the break up wasn't shown onscreen, the writers figured that the general audience wouldn't remember what was said in Lovers Walk (An episode two years prior to Fool For Love) and retconned the break up to be all about Spuffy. Dru never tells Spike they can still be friends, and they're not even in a park despite the fact that the first sentence Spike says when he retells the story of the break up in Lover's Walk is that he was "walking through a park looking for a meal" and that he catches Dru making out with a chaos demon on a park bench.
 
K
katmobile
It's still hearsay and you know what maybe someone who is heartbroken isn't big on the details also it's not like he's going to share the detail that Dru blamed his feelings for Buffy with Buffy's friends now is it?

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
571
Age
37
@katmobile The break up was retconned. What Spike said happened in Lovers Walk to two separate characters is not what happened in Fool For Love. Spike was not lying in Lovers Walk either as his emotional responses back up what he was saying eg Dru telling him they could still be friends.

Because the break up wasn't shown onscreen, the writers figured that the general audience wouldn't remember what was said in Lovers Walk (An episode two years prior to Fool For Love) and retconned the break up to be all about Spuffy. Dru never tells Spike they can still be friends, and they're not even in a park despite the fact that the first sentence Spike says when he retells the story of the break up in Lover's Walk is that he was "walking through a park looking for a meal" and that he catches Dru making out with a chaos demon on a park bench.
It wasn't retconned that much. Spike discovered them on a park bench, this foashback is clearly after that. After this scene Dru could've said we can still be friends.

You want retconned, how about Angel saying he's not fed on another human being since he was Souled in Buffy S1. To which we know from S2 Darla he fed on criminals.
You want another. In Angel S2 He says he's never turned a guy when souled then we jump to Angel S5 and we know that's changed.
 
Top Bottom