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Riley in As You Were

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
22
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29
Do you know my views on Spike and Buffy? Please enlighten me if you do. I don’t think I’ve had a conversation with you at all since you’ve been here.

Secondly, yeah I know it didn’t happen because Sarah has said many times that she never agreed with the idea of her character getting together with Spike. She loves JM as person, but she thought it went against who Buffy was fundamentally as a character. Check out interviews , use google. It’s not a secret. James Marsters himself also said he never thought it was realistic, and now as a father himself he would rather his daughter go out with Riley. He spoke about it recently on a Podcast called Slayerfest 98 for the episode Fool For Love. Sarah is HUGE Bangel shipper actually.

As for Riley and Sam, I find it much more realistic he met someone else who appreciates him and allows him to love her and who he can love back without a ton of baggage involved , then the idea of him orchestrating a false marriage , military black op style operation a year and a half later just to stick it a undead vampire for...reasons? That’s retarded. It’s ten times easier to just kill Spike. That kind of conspiracy is QAnon level of ridiculous. He even decides the next season to provide help and get Spikes chip out.

Why this need to Vilify Riley anyway? Spuffy wins. Riley is married, in a different country. Spuffy spends seasons together, happy . If anything, Riley and Buffy is a great example of healthy , failed relationship in the buffyverse that benefited both partners.
Sarah did say the entire season 6 went against buffy's character and season 6 was very spuffy focused.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Where did you find this?
D
Dora
Marti Noxon has also said of S6 ....that they went too far and it was almost sadistic

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
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29
@katmobile Spike told the same story to two separate people (Willow and Joyce) almost word for word. The only discrepancy between both tellings is his reaction to Dru calling his bluff. It's more likely that he was telling the truth about the events of the break up and was just embellishing his reaction to Dru telling him "fine" in order to make himself not look so pathetic. Why would he get so upset over Dru saying they could still be friends if she'd never said it?

It wasn't retconned that much. Spike discovered them on a park bench, this foashback is clearly after that. After this scene Dru could've said we can still be friends.
That flashback is clearly meant to be THE break up mentioned in Lovers Walk as the Chaos Demon is there and they are in Brazil. Why would Spike confront Dru later over something he'd always confronted her about before? There is no park bench, they're not even in a park, and Dru never tells him "fine" or that they can "still be friends".

Now if they had used the FUNGUS Demon that Harmony mentioned Dru supposedly left him for then there wouldn't be an issue as the flashback would clearly take place after the events of Lovers Walk. However because they used the CHAOS Demon and Brazil, the scene is a retcon because it's meant to be the event mentioned in Lovers Walk and the description does not match.

You want retconned, how about Angel saying he's not fed on another human being since he was Souled in Buffy S1. To which we know from S2 Darla he fed on criminals.
You want another. In Angel S2 He says he's never turned a guy when souled then we jump to Angel S5 and we know that's changed.
How about the fact that in Season 2 and 3, Sunnydale has docks yet by Season 7 is completely landlocked? You can go thorough the show and find retcons (sometimes within the very same episode eg in OMWF, the singing is supposed to make people reveal secrets yet Xander was part of the "what the hell is going on?" song yet apparently knew all along what the matter was and was able to keep it secret.)

I don't see why you're giving a list of retcons yet refuse to believe that the Sprusilla break up scene shown in FFL is also a retcon of what we were told happened in Lovers Walk.

Back to the topic of Riley in As you were, there are plot inconsistencies within the episode that make Riley come off a lot shadier than the writers probably intended. However, given that Riley demonstrated problematic behaviour in some episodes of Season 4 and Season 5 that was never acknowledged by the writers as such, it's also likely that it could be the same deal here.

The biggest sticking point of the episode is that Riley is saying that Spike is the Doctor and the audience is supposed to believe him, yet all the evidence contradicts it. Spike has not got the resources to be a major weapons dealer, there is no scene of him to even suggest he is up to something dodgy. He still uses a pay phone, he invites Buffy back to his crypt and lets her stay, he doesn't freeze the sulvolte eggs, he has them out in the open, etc. If he was the Doctor, then he would know how to take care of the merchandise which he clearly doesn't.
 
K
katmobile
There's a fan theory that Xander was actually covering for Dawn and she summoned Sweet after all. It works for me. I think Spike picked the eggs up from the equivalent of a bloke down the pub and is acting for them in exchange for a few readies.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
664
Age
38
@katmobile Spike told the same story to two separate people (Willow and Joyce) almost word for word. The only discrepancy between both tellings is his reaction to Dru calling his bluff. It's more likely that he was telling the truth about the events of the break up and was just embellishing his reaction to Dru telling him "fine" in order to make himself not look so pathetic. Why would he get so upset over Dru saying they could still be friends if she'd never said it?



That flashback is clearly meant to be THE break up mentioned in Lovers Walk as the Chaos Demon is there and they are in Brazil. Why would Spike confront Dru later over something he'd always confronted her about before? There is no park bench, they're not even in a park, and Dru never tells him "fine" or that they can "still be friends".

Now if they had used the FUNGUS Demon that Harmony mentioned Dru supposedly left him for then there wouldn't be an issue as the flashback would clearly take place after the events of Lovers Walk. However because they used the CHAOS Demon and Brazil, the scene is a retcon because it's meant to be the event mentioned in Lovers Walk and the description does not match.



How about the fact that in Season 2 and 3, Sunnydale has docks yet by Season 7 is completely landlocked? You can go thorough the show and find retcons (sometimes within the very same episode eg in OMWF, the singing is supposed to make people reveal secrets yet Xander was part of the "what the hell is going on?" song yet apparently knew all along what the matter was and was able to keep it secret.)

I don't see why you're giving a list of retcons yet refuse to believe that the Sprusilla break up scene shown in FFL is also a retcon of what we were told happened in Lovers Walk.

Back to the topic of Riley in As you were, there are plot inconsistencies within the episode that make Riley come off a lot shadier than the writers probably intended. However, given that Riley demonstrated problematic behaviour in some episodes of Season 4 and Season 5 that was never acknowledged by the writers as such, it's also likely that it could be the same deal here.

The biggest sticking point of the episode is that Riley is saying that Spike is the Doctor and the audience is supposed to believe him, yet all the evidence contradicts it. Spike has not got the resources to be a major weapons dealer, there is no scene of him to even suggest he is up to something dodgy. He still uses a pay phone, he invites Buffy back to his crypt and lets her stay, he doesn't freeze the sulvolte eggs, he has them out in the open, etc. If he was the Doctor, then he would know how to take care of the merchandise which he clearly doesn't.
I saw an idea/retcon put forward on YouTube that Spike was telling the truth, that he was only holding the eggs for someone. That he did it to get money for Buffy. That to me makes a lot more sense in terms of his character and motivation.
He's genuinely trying to be helpful but being souless, it ends up being a disaster.
As for Riley, he knows Spike isn't the Doctor but wants to kill him and to turn Buffy against him. That also stays in character while gives him a darker edge and makes him less Gary Stu at the same time.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,031
Age
53
For someone who hates Spike you sure do write about him a lot 🤓

Riley didn't leave because of Spuffy (not completely) or because of the Bangel shippers who hated him too. He left because the Network told Joss too because he was dragging down ratings. The writers loved him, they wouldn't have got rid of him if not for that.
It was unfortunate for him that while Buffy had no chemistry with him, she had it with Spike and the comparison in dream sequences and Something Blue etc showed it.

Urghh Riley was gas lighting Buffy, in a big way, so much so she apologises to him and you think that's good ?

And didn't Sarah originally go to Joss in S4/5 about getting Buffy with Spike, his response being no more Vampires. I think the objection was more the way that it was done rather than the relationship itself.
Riley was written by the end as a bad boyfriend to Buffy , Season 5 he was written as needy and selfish what he was not in S4 , then things really went downhill after Spike took Buffy along to the sucking whore house , his whole action was to cause problems between them , knowing if Riley was out of the way that would be one less obstacle in his way
I have never heard of the net work asking for the riley Character to be written out , it was not in there biography that was on line but I doubt still is and the ratings for S5 were fairly consistent with a low at forever after the departure of Riley ?
As for falling ratings there is nothing to compare with the drop of S6 , 7.7 down to 4.1 by seeing red it did pick up a little giving the season a half reasonable average
I did understand that Sarah at sometime in the earlier season did go to Whedon, to put the idea to him , but like most things that SMG put to JW it did not happen , well until MN became showrunner , then they were put together in a horrid way in which both Characters ( well all the characters except Tara to some extent ) was degraded
 
B
Btvs fan
This post is very contradictory

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
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Riley was written by the end as a bad boyfriend to Buffy , Season 5 he was written as needy and selfish what he was not in S4
There were moments in Season 4 that demonstrate his Season 5 behaviour was not as out of the blue as it first appears, The Yoko Factor is the most obvious example but there is also elements of it in Goodbye Iowa. Riley grabs Buffy a lot despite her making it very clear she doesn't like it (he grabs her in Goodbye Iowa, Buffy vs Dracula and multiple times in Into The Woods) and each time she tells him to let her go and forcefully pulls her arm away.

I did understand that Sarah at sometime in the earlier season did go to Whedon, to put the idea to him , but like most things that SMG put to JW it did not happen
I think what has to be considered is that things move on. Whilst SMG might have suggested something in say Season 4 (Something Blue was a funny episode because of the Spuffy element which worked because of the ridiculousness of it all), that doesn't mean she felt the same way at the end of Season 5, or that how she envisioned Spuffy would go is not what she and JM had to act out.

Then they were put together in a horrid way in which both Characters ( well all the characters except Tara to some extent ) was degraded
Neither SMG or JM enjoyed Season 6 and she even had to reassure him after they filmed the AR scene because it affected him that badly.

Also Tara became a bit of a nag in Season 6, she might not have suffered as much as other characters in terms of writing, but she did become a little bit less likeable in my view.
 
B
Btvs fan
I think she hated the misery/depression of S6 and thought the Balcony scene was degrading.
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
all of season 6 after tabula rasa kind of weirded me out. and none of it after that really felt like Buffy, I get that she was depressed but she seemed to have a complete personality switch for half the season.
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Tara had every right to be a nag in Season 6 when she senses that her girlfriend is going off the rails. Plus the fact that Willow violated her and took advantage.

Btvs fan

Scooby
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I was annoyed at how the episode's previously flashbacks at the start, omitted the reason Riley left. They didn't even address it once in the episode.
 

Tome

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Black Thorn
I was annoyed at how the episode's previously flashbacks at the start, omitted the reason Riley left. They didn't even address it once in the episode.
What do you mean exactly by that? That Buffy didn't tell Riley she tried to stop him but got to the helicopter too late? If so, she was about to during the episode but she changed her mind because she realized it would only make both of them sad.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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What do you mean exactly by that? That Buffy didn't tell Riley she tried to stop him but got to the helicopter too late? If so, she was about to during the episode but she changed her mind because she realized it would only make both of them sad.
I meant him getting caught with the Vamp whores
 

DayDreamer27

Potential
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
206
There were moments in Season 4 that demonstrate his Season 5 behaviour was not as out of the blue as it first appears, The Yoko Factor is the most obvious example but there is also elements of it in Goodbye Iowa. Riley grabs Buffy a lot despite her making it very clear she doesn't like it (he grabs her in Goodbye Iowa, Buffy vs Dracula and multiple times in Into The Woods) and each time she tells him to let her go and forcefully pulls her arm away.



I think what has to be considered is that things move on. Whilst SMG might have suggested something in say Season 4 (Something Blue was a funny episode because of the Spuffy element which worked because of the ridiculousness of it all), that doesn't mean she felt the same way at the end of Season 5, or that how she envisioned Spuffy would go is not what she and JM had to act out.



Neither SMG or JM enjoyed Season 6 and she even had to reassure him after they filmed the AR scene because it affected him that badly.

Also Tara became a bit of a nag in Season 6, she might not have suffered as much as other characters in terms of writing, but she did become a little bit less likeable in my view.
That was my thought on SMG with Spuffy. Maybe she was on board with the pairing, but not the dark place Whedon took it where it didn't feel like Buffy anymore to her.

I haven't actually heard from SMG or Whedon, buy I heard there were times SMG had to be talked down from quitting during the Spuffy season.
 
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K
katmobile
I don't support the harassment of Sarah over this and I remain grateful she kept going and never phoned it in. However her opinion is still just an opinion.

Izzie

Townie
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Feb 17, 2019
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42
This episode is weird to say the least. I get that this was somewhat necessary I guess for Buffy to end the unhealthy relationship with Spike by showing what she has missed after the breakup with Riley. He is now happy and in a healthy relationship. And okey, so what? This is what Buffy has missed now? A healthy marriage? Why would she even want that at this point of her life? Or, I guess it's just that someday her life would have been like that if they didn't break up? i don't know... which get's me to my second problem. For Riley to be married so quick is just not believable. I mean, Sam even says to Buffy that it took a whole year for Riley to get over Buffy, so that would leave what.... just few months for them to fall in love and get married. It's just way too quick and I don't even know why it's bothering me. Cause I know that the timeline of Riley and Sam's relationship is so not important and so not what this episode is about, but still.. it bothers me. 😅 And also, the character (and casting) of Sam is off (just another one of my weird things that bother me). I just can't picture Riley with someone like her. And also, Sam is just waaaay too perfect and comfortable with her interactions with the other characters of the show.

And then Spike, being The Doctor? Come on, what? I don't think the sun shines from Spike's behind, but this is just way WTF? It does not make sense at all. I read some comments that think that the Iniative and Riley was behind this? And that doesn't make sense either. So I don't know what to believe and think about those frigging eggs. It's so random....

And on a side note, to some of the things that has been talked about in this topic, I would like to say that

A)Spike is my favourite character, but I do not think that he is poor poor Spike, who never does anything wrong
B) I never hated Riley, though he was the boring boyfriend (but I guess that's guaranteed when you have Angel and Spike as the other potential boyfriends).
C) I'm #teamSpuffy till my last breath, but I do not think for one moment that their S6 relationship or whatever you would call it is rainbows, cookies, icecream, chocolate, shooting stars and butterflies. So also, I don't blame Riley for the break up of Spuffy.
 

Mr Trick

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Having re-watched this the other day I think Riley comes across alright in it. As You Were is never one which will linger in the mind. I think its mediocre. But it does a decent job of putting a bow on the Buffy-Riley relationship.
 
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