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Sam Lawson Why we Fight

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by GraceK, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    I know a lot of people don't like this episode for different reasons, but I actually do like it. I don't like Angel in this episode though.

    I actually feel really bad for Lawson and I think that Angel is unbelievably callous about what he did. ..shows no remorse whatsoever cause he felt it had to be done. It also makes me feel that I might not want Angel to get redemption for things he has done....I think he deserves to suffer. He may be a hero now but that doesn't wash away all the pain and lives he has ruined. I'm expecting to get a lot of hate for this opinion lol. Lawson makes me sad. A genuinely good person who wanted to not only help his country but save his crew but is sacrificed. He has very good reasons to be upset . And I'm not excusing his actions to the rest of the gang when he turns up...I don't know This whole episode leaves a bad taste.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2016 ---
    Ok I want to amend this a little..Angel does show remorse so I was wrong to say he didn't. Still leaves me with a bad feeling about Angel that I don't like :(
     
    flow likes this.
  2. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    This is all pretty much part and parcel to Angel's character, his certainty that he, and he alone, knows what has to be done to serve (his personal version of) "the greater good." Of course, it could be argued that Lawson was dying anyhow, and the only chance for the few remaining survivors of the crew was to take the action that he did, but I couldn't help wondering the first time that I saw it, if his actions in creating another monster like himself, then turning it loose on the world, weren't as bad, if not worse, than just letting the submarine sink. Surely, that "greater good" would have dictated that the deaths of the few remaining crewmen would be less than the number of victims Lawson would take, undoubtedly some of whom would be women and children, since they seem to be the preferred victims of most vampires.

    Of course, it has to be remembered, Angel at that time was in no way trying to be any kind of hero, champion, or patriot. He didn't know anything about redemption, and the love of a good, if totally naive, teenage girl who just happened to be a Slayer. All that he wanted to do was to get back to dry land and get as far away from the Initiative operatives as possible.
     
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  3. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    Angel did the pragmatic thing, really the only thing he could do and I do think he carries the guilt for it, along with all the other guilt he carries. What bothers me is that Lawson expects something more of Angel that he cannot give. No-one can give another person a reason for existing, that has to come from within yourself.
     
  4. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Surrealistic Ninja

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    Black Thorn
    I felt bad for Sam...but got over it really fast because Spike as a Nazi was just TOO funny. So was the Prince of Lies! Go back and watch this episode...it's got some seriously weird comedy going on.

    Fun fact: Camden Toy (The Prince of Lies) also played one of the Gentleman, an Ubervamp, and the Gnarl.


    Prince-of-Lies01.jpg
     
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  5. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I do love this episode very much for just one single line. It is one of m,y favorite quotes of both shows. It is actually Sam Lawson, who says it: "You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right."

    Lawson was dying. Turning him into a vampire saved the submarine, the three or four remaining crew members and Angel and Spike. (Angel ! You saved Spike ! I only just noticed ! Thank you !)

    But can you pull the plug of the life support of a dying person, just because you need this persons kidney now (and not in two or three more days) to save another otherwise dying Person ? Can you do it without asking for the permission of the sure to be dying person ? No, you can`t. It would be utterly wrong.

    Sadly, there would have been an easy way out for Angel. He could have asked Lawson for permission. And Lawson - being the man, he was - would very likely have given that permission.

    Angel failed Lawson twice. The second time he did, was, when he did not dust him, after the submarine was saved. Lawson was bound to kill humans. It is a natural instinct for vampires. There was no way he coul - left alone as he was - fight or overcome this instinct. Does that put the blame for every victim, Lawson killed in the next sixty years of his existence as a vampire on Angel ? I am sorry, to say it, butI believe, it does.

    Does it make a difference, that Angel was ensouled, but not yet on the path to redemption ? No, I don`t think it does. He could have known, that what he was doing was wrong, because Lawson himself had told him so. "You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right."

    What was really awful about this episode, was, that Nazis shouldn`t be a comic relief, black hair ruins Spikes cool look and the Fritz spoke german with a thick english accent.

    He wasn`t a Nazi. He just liked wearing the jacket ;)

    flow
     
    Anyanka Bunny Killer: I know...I meant to put dressed as a Nazi. :P And you pretty much quoted Angel! lol
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