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Sam Lawson Why we Fight

GraceK

Grr Arrg
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I know a lot of people don't like this episode for different reasons, but I actually do like it. I don't like Angel in this episode though.

I actually feel really bad for Lawson and I think that Angel is unbelievably callous about what he did. ..shows no remorse whatsoever cause he felt it had to be done. It also makes me feel that I might not want Angel to get redemption for things he has done....I think he deserves to suffer. He may be a hero now but that doesn't wash away all the pain and lives he has ruined. I'm expecting to get a lot of hate for this opinion lol. Lawson makes me sad. A genuinely good person who wanted to not only help his country but save his crew but is sacrificed. He has very good reasons to be upset . And I'm not excusing his actions to the rest of the gang when he turns up...I don't know This whole episode leaves a bad taste.
 
Ok I want to amend this a little..Angel does show remorse so I was wrong to say he didn't. Still leaves me with a bad feeling about Angel that I don't like :(
 

white avenger

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I actually feel really bad for Lawson and I think that Angel is unbelievably callous about what he did. ..shows no remorse whatsoever cause he felt it had to be done.
This is all pretty much part and parcel to Angel's character, his certainty that he, and he alone, knows what has to be done to serve (his personal version of) "the greater good." Of course, it could be argued that Lawson was dying anyhow, and the only chance for the few remaining survivors of the crew was to take the action that he did, but I couldn't help wondering the first time that I saw it, if his actions in creating another monster like himself, then turning it loose on the world, weren't as bad, if not worse, than just letting the submarine sink. Surely, that "greater good" would have dictated that the deaths of the few remaining crewmen would be less than the number of victims Lawson would take, undoubtedly some of whom would be women and children, since they seem to be the preferred victims of most vampires.

Of course, it has to be remembered, Angel at that time was in no way trying to be any kind of hero, champion, or patriot. He didn't know anything about redemption, and the love of a good, if totally naive, teenage girl who just happened to be a Slayer. All that he wanted to do was to get back to dry land and get as far away from the Initiative operatives as possible.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Angel did the pragmatic thing, really the only thing he could do and I do think he carries the guilt for it, along with all the other guilt he carries. What bothers me is that Lawson expects something more of Angel that he cannot give. No-one can give another person a reason for existing, that has to come from within yourself.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Evil hand issues💀
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Black Thorn
I felt bad for Sam...but got over it really fast because Spike as a Nazi was just TOO funny. So was the Prince of Lies! Go back and watch this episode...it's got some seriously weird comedy going on.

Fun fact: Camden Toy (The Prince of Lies) also played one of the Gentleman, an Ubervamp, and the Gnarl.


Prince-of-Lies01.jpg
 

flow

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
813
Lawson makes me sad. A genuinely good person who wanted to not only help his country but save his crew but is sacrificed
I do love this episode very much for just one single line. It is one of m,y favorite quotes of both shows. It is actually Sam Lawson, who says it: "You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right."

Lawson was dying. Turning him into a vampire saved the submarine, the three or four remaining crew members and Angel and Spike. (Angel ! You saved Spike ! I only just noticed ! Thank you !)

But can you pull the plug of the life support of a dying person, just because you need this persons kidney now (and not in two or three more days) to save another otherwise dying Person ? Can you do it without asking for the permission of the sure to be dying person ? No, you can`t. It would be utterly wrong.

Sadly, there would have been an easy way out for Angel. He could have asked Lawson for permission. And Lawson - being the man, he was - would very likely have given that permission.

Angel failed Lawson twice. The second time he did, was, when he did not dust him, after the submarine was saved. Lawson was bound to kill humans. It is a natural instinct for vampires. There was no way he coul - left alone as he was - fight or overcome this instinct. Does that put the blame for every victim, Lawson killed in the next sixty years of his existence as a vampire on Angel ? I am sorry, to say it, butI believe, it does.

Does it make a difference, that Angel was ensouled, but not yet on the path to redemption ? No, I don`t think it does. He could have known, that what he was doing was wrong, because Lawson himself had told him so. "You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right."

What was really awful about this episode, was, that Nazis shouldn`t be a comic relief, black hair ruins Spikes cool look and the Fritz spoke german with a thick english accent.

Spike as a Nazi
He wasn`t a Nazi. He just liked wearing the jacket ;)

flow
 
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
I know...I meant to put dressed as a Nazi. :P And you pretty much quoted Angel! lol

kalike123

Townie
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This plays with the question of "Would you kill one man to save ten thousand men?"

There are different schools of thought on this question, which course of action is The Right Way to go.

They played with this same question at the end of Season 5 on Buffy.

Angel chose one road, Buffy chose the other...but Buffy had to kill someone she loved, which adds a new angle.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Buffy had to kill someone she loved, which adds a new angle.
But then you could ask the question, why is your loved one's life more important than someone else's loved ones?

Why should Dawn be given priority over Tara (Willow's loved one)?

Why should Dawn be given priority over the elementary school kids?

Why should Dawn be given priority over the new born babies at the hospital?

Buffy was in a difficult position and it's understandable that she wouldn't want to sacrifice Dawn, but it was also completely selfish of her to risk the rest of the world for her sister. Would Buffy have reacted the same way if Dawn wasn't her sister? If not, then why should the family relation trump the cold hard truth. Buffy later admits that she would sacrifice Dawn if she was in that position again, but Buffy says that when she's not in that position, would she follow through when it came to crunch time?

Perhaps the reason why slayers are supposed to work alone is so they don't face that kind of moral dilemma which could sway them from doing what must be done.Having friends has helped Buffy survive, but it is also a double edged sword.

It's also possible that Buffy couldn't literally sacrifice Dawn because of the monk's spell rather than her actually choosing not to. She sacrificed Angel to save the world in Season 2 even though she didn't want to, perhaps the monk's spell to make her protect Dawn actually prevented her from taking the necessary course of action?

Buffy's conclusion that her own blood could close the portal is not rock solid and is only successful because the writers made it so. Essentially Buffy could've sacrificed her life for nothing and Dawn would still have to jump/be pushed into the portal.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Should Angel feel bad for Lawson? He killed him for a much better reason than most other characters on the show.
But should we? After all vamp-Lawson seems to have much more agency/'soul residue'/conscience or whatever than any other 'soulless' vampire we see (apart from Spike of course) but he chose to just become/remain a monster like all the rest.
He wanted Angel to 'give him a mission' without bothering to try and do it himself. And he almost killed the rest of team Angel in the process.
I mean, he understood why Angel did what he did, saving all those lives by 'damning' him. He wasn't looking for vengeance or payback he was just looking for purpose. Maybe he could've asked Angel for help instead of wanting it to end.

So yeah, screw Lawson.
 

Btvs fan

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Should Angel feel bad for Lawson? He killed him for a much better reason than most other characters on the show.
But should we? After all vamp-Lawson seems to have much more agency/'soul residue'/conscience or whatever than any other 'soulless' vampire we see (apart from Spike of course) but he chose to just become/remain a monster like all the rest.
He wanted Angel to 'give him a mission' without bothering to try and do it himself. And he almost killed the rest of team Angel in the process.
I mean, he understood why Angel did what he did, saving all those lives by 'damning' him. He wasn't looking for vengeance or payback he was just looking for purpose. Maybe he could've asked Angel for help instead of wanting it to end.

So yeah, screw Lawson.
In the Trial Angel speculates to Darla about turning her as he never did it while he had a soul. I'm guess Deknight and Goddard never saw that episode 🤔
 

thetopher

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In the Trial Angel speculates to Darla about turning her as he never did it while he had a soul
Angel is often the victim of this kind of re-write that makes him look worse than he is. In S1 of Buffy he tells her that he never fed off a living soul after he was cursed but then his own show turned him into a damn liar.
He should've said 'some nasty people whilst I was hanging around Darla after I had the soul, and some guy in the seventies who was gonna croak anyways' *winning smile*

At least in 'The Trial' you could hand-wave it and say that Angel didn't know precisely how Darla would turn out since he didn't interact with Lawson that much before kicking him off the sub. For all he knew Lawson was off somewhere being not-evil, but he wasn't.
 
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Black Thorn
Angel is often the victim of this kind of re-write that makes him look worse than he is. In S1 of Buffy he tells her that he never fed off a living soul after he was cursed but then his own show turned him into a damn liar.
To be fair though, your hardly going to tell the girl your trying to help and have a thing for, who doesn’t really trust you yet, that you have fed off people while you had a soul. I don’t think that would have gone down well with Buffy, especially because she doesn’t exactly understand vampires with a soul.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
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Angel is often the victim of this kind of re-write that makes him look worse than he is. In S1 of Buffy he tells her that he never fed off a living soul after he was cursed but then his own show turned him into a damn liar.
He should've said 'some nasty people whilst I was hanging around Darla after I had the soul, and some guy in the seventies who was gonna croak anyways' *winning smile*

At least in 'The Trial' you could hand-wave it and say that Angel didn't know precisely how Darla would turn out since he didn't interact with Lawson that much before kicking him off the sub. For all he knew Lawson was off somewhere being not-evil, but he wasn't.
I meant the Brian Lynch Spike comics which are actually very good. You should try them, you'll be surprised and impressed
 

katmobile

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Angel is often the victim of this kind of re-write that makes him look worse than he is. In S1 of Buffy he tells her that he never fed off a living soul after he was cursed but then his own show turned him into a damn liar.
He should've said 'some nasty people whilst I was hanging around Darla after I had the soul, and some guy in the seventies who was gonna croak anyways' *winning smile*

At least in 'The Trial' you could hand-wave it and say that Angel didn't know precisely how Darla would turn out since he didn't interact with Lawson that much before kicking him off the sub. For all he knew Lawson was off somewhere being not-evil, but he wasn't.
I don't think that it's done to make Angel look worse but to deepen the lore. Also if you're living with a lot then some selective memory probably counts as a survival mechanism.
 

thetopher

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I meant the Brian Lynch Spike comics which are actually very good. You should try them, you'll be surprised and impressed
Read them. Brian Lynch writes Spike better than most but I can't honestly say that the stories weren't that brilliant. Enjoyable enough but ultimately inconsequential. Also they were irrelevant in the development of Spike's overall character in the comics, which primarily revolved around being there for Buffy, being in love with her and eventually being Buffy's boyfriend.
 

katmobile

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Should Angel feel bad for Lawson? He killed him for a much better reason than most other characters on the show.
But should we? After all vamp-Lawson seems to have much more agency/'soul residue'/conscience or whatever than any other 'soulless' vampire we see (apart from Spike of course) but he chose to just become/remain a monster like all the rest.
He wanted Angel to 'give him a mission' without bothering to try and do it himself. And he almost killed the rest of team Angel in the process.
I mean, he understood why Angel did what he did, saving all those lives by 'damning' him. He wasn't looking for vengeance or payback he was just looking for purpose. Maybe he could've asked Angel for help instead of wanting it to end.

So yeah, screw Lawson.
Actually it fits pretty well with my understanding of soul canon. Lawson doesn't understand it's not to do with soul residue but what a soul is - it's to do pure altruism i.e. for whom the bell tolls altruism. Basically Lawson as a mortal was defined by it he was a good man who derived his entire life by the dictates of his soul so once that was removed by becoming a vampire he was empty with no capacity to understand why.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Actually it fits pretty well with my understanding of soul canon.
Your canon doesn't seem to chime with what's shown on-screen at all. But that's what head-canon is for I guess.
Soul is the seat of moral agency as established in the Buffyverse; those who have more ability to contemplate their acts are more complicit in making them.
Vampires do evil because it is fun, they are now 'above' some petty human morals because they think themselves superior, only the type of evil seems to reflected by their past life; Darla was a femme fatale, Angelus was anti-religious and wanted to be as evil so as to offend his sainted father; Spike was a romatic with mommy issues that hunted and brutalized without much thought.
Lawson seemed to do the same evil acts but got no satisfaction from them because he had something lacking, or something more. Either way he was more aware of his nature than most and therefore he is more culpable.
 
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