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Sanctuary B/A scene

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by dcai0830, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Buffy: You always followed my lead and this is my show so do as I say.

    Angel: I've got my own show now and it's different from your show. So get off my show.

    The End
     
    Fool for Buffy: Sadly this is all too accurate
  2. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    lol, also accurate!
     
  3. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    @Athene What Angel does is rather questionable. He's giving asylum to a serial killer. Buffy is one of Faith's victims and just barely survived Faith's latest stunt.
     
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  4. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    I understand what you are saying, and in some ways I agree, but here is a 'man' who says he loves Buffy so much he sacrificed his own happiness to allow her to have a 'normal' life, everything he's done is for her benefit. Yet here he is siding with her worst enemy. Protecting Faith is morally the right thing to do, but it was an emotinal punch to the gut for Buffy, and I sympathise with her. The man you love, who loves you, when asked to choose, picks your enemey over you. That hurts man! No matter how morally correct it is, it hurts, so I sympathise with Buffy.
     
    Athene: It's your choice who you sympathise with :)
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  5. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    It's still Angel's choice, he made a decision and I didn't expect him to have to change his decision because Buffy shows up and expects him to be on her leash again. Also, Angel is a serial killer himself so Buffy has been giving quite a bit more than a sanctuary to a serial killer for some time now.
    In the end, Faith goes to prison, which is what Buffy said she wanted, yet she still feels the need to attack Angel because he dared to disagree with her...so I'm not going to be feeling sorry for Buffy anytime soon.
     
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  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    And Buffy in turn has attempted to murder Faith herself before and put her in a coma, lets not forget. Also Buffy is currently not killing Spike and has no problem with having Anya around. Sorry but Buffy doesn't have any sort of moral high ground there. The difference is that, once again, Faith attacked Buffy (and her boyfriend) personally, hence Buffy feels justified to murder someone...again. Beat someone to death is a pretty clear expression of wanting to kill. I call into question Buffy's morality when she makes judgement calls not on a general principle but dependent on whether or not the person hurt her directly.

    Angel understands why Faith does what she does and can see what's really underneath, Buffy doesn't because she has long stopped bothering to try to understand. Even though the Faith two-parter on BtVS ended with the montage where Buffy seemed to click to the fact as to just how damaged Faith was. Which is why her reaction in Sanctuary (which is weeks later) seemed so totally out of proportion to me.
     
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  7. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Why is Angel judge and jury over Faith fate? According to the laws of man, Faith should be in jail. Buffy wants justice or revenge or at least some recognition of all that she has suffered at Faith's hands. Angel wants to forgive and redeem Faith, so he and Buffy clash. Buffy and Angel both operate outside of regular morality, so it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong.
     
  8. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Buffy at first wanted to beat Faith to death, which is why Angel had to stop her...Buffy then mentioned Jail. We don't really know what Angel was planning on doing with Faith, I think he was going to give Faith some care to make sure that it was her decision to go to prison. After all, Angel and nobody else could have forced Faith into prison like Buffy was planning to. Faith could break out of prison anytime she pleases, which is why it was vital that she made the choice which she eventually did. So yeah, Angel was right.
     
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  9. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    Earshot is about Buffy's insecurities, IMO. Not about not knowing Angel, she wants confirmation about his feelings for her. And its stupid. Angel has said, like 10 times by then that he loves her, he did the Faith stuff because she asked him to. But ok I get it, Buffy has some insecurities and I can sympathize with that.

    The trust thing is a recurring theme in their relationship. She doesn't trust him way before he left her, she said during Lie to Me "I love you but I don't know if I trust you" and I don't see how him leaving would give her a reason not to trust him. I can't find anything that Angel has ever done (aside from turning into Angelus which was NOT either of their fault) that would lead Buffy to say that she can't trust him. Yet it comes up over and over. To end in the biggest slap in the face to Angel that is ATS Season 5.

    And Riley lied to Buffy initially, he never told her about the Initiative. Its not like the started on the most honest of footing with each other.

    I will agree with you that Angel is complex, Riley is not, and his simplicity makes it easier to feel secure in that relationship. That much is true. And in fact, I think that was the thing Buffy loved the most about that relationship. It also made it OH SO BORING ;)
     
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  10. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Buffy's being a hurt selfish brat, and Angel's being a hurt ex-lover.
    I hate and love that scene. Hate it because they are deliberately hurting each other, love it because it's real. I would say all, but I'll settle for saying most, of us have lashed out at people we care about in fights because we're hurting. You go for the jugular, hit them where it hurts. It's childish but understandable.

    More specifically, your questions
    Deliberately trying to hurt him. Even if she does love Riley here, it's hell of a way to announce it for the first time, by smearing it in your ex's face. She wants Angel to hurt because she feels he's hurting her. It's unnecessary to say, she just wants to lash out.

    I'd say see above.

    That damn curse rears it ugly head again. Ugh. The shows are riddled with magical solutions, just explain this one out of existence BEFORE season five of Angel and Nina. Thanks!

    She doesn't know him because he's living a new life that she's not apart of. Imagine an ex or a friend from last year stomping into your life right now and starting to dictate things, you'd probably also yell "go home" (but it'd probably have less to do with saving the soul of a damaged slayer and more to do with like how to organize your kitchen cabinets or something :p)


    Pouty, jealous baby award goes to.... Miss Buffy Summers! *crowd cheers* Congratulations Miss Summers, after spending a good portion of your own show whining over a one-night stand, you make sure to bring this weepy, entitled, yet insecure attitude all the way to LA. Good job.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Buffy but,Faith literally never wins. Buffy just thinks she does because she's self-involved and insecure about her.


    Doing the right thing. Going after her would change nothing. They can't change what they are, he has his own show life now, and she has hers to go back to. It's enough that they patch it up later.
    :)
     
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  11. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    It has to do with Buffy feeling that she will never truly know Angel on some level. It is all about her insecurities, and about unintended consequences. When she asked Angel to do this thing, she didn't fully understand what it would entail and how it would make her feel. Tricking Faith, getting the information, should have been a happy moment, it finally gives their side an advantage, but in reality, emotionally it took a toll on Buffy and her relationship with Angel. It was probably written so as to drive another wedge between the couple now that Angel was moving to his own show.

    Buffy's trust issues must stem from her father. When your dad leaves the family, then comepletely abandons you as Hank did, that has to have an effect. Plus she's been trained to believe all demons are bad and evil, and so trusting one must be a big issue for her. It could also stem from Angel not actually telling her he was a vampire, even though I understand why he didn't tell her. He didn't tell her about Dru either, when she saw them together. All these things play a part in her feelings of distrust

    Riley, another boyfriend that has secrets. You've got to feel for Buffy :) He probably had to sign secrecy papers, so he couldn't tell her the truth either.

    I agree, Buffy was drawn to the simplicity of the relationship with Riley. Here was Mr Dependable, he wasn't going to have any deep dark secrets, or run off and leave her . . . :)
     
  12. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    When you put it this way! I would find it really annoying if my ex came in and told me how to organize my kitchen. That would piss me off something fierce.

    I should say in general I don't really feel strongly either way as to who's fault it was. This is a crappy situation to be in for both of them. I tend to side with Angel because I think Buffy comes across horribly but that is the writer's intent. I just didn't like the dialogue. Thought it could have been tighter. I would've written Buffy to say the following:

    Buffy: I have someone in my life, that I love, it's different what what you and I had, and do you know how it's different, I TRUST him.
    Angel: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know anything about what we do here. This isn't about you. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"


    It would have conveyed everything that needed to be said and it would have made sense. But what do I know, I'm no Joss Whedon.

    But maybe I am looking too closely at the dialogue. It bugs me.
     
    Priceless: I liked your dialogue
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  13. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    He's not, Faith is. That's Angel's whole point in Sanctuary. Faith has to decide to give up the evil path. Faith has to decide to repent for it. And Faith has to decide how she is going to repent. Faith chose the human way (jail) for that. Angel just gave her the security of having another person care for her, despite what she had done. And he is a 'living' example that you can come back from evil, you just have to chose another path.

    Pot, cattle, black. Buffy should be jail as well for 2 counts of attempted murder alone. Plus one successful murder. It's just that they can't find Ted's body at the local junk yard, lucky her. And Faith probably only survived because she is a slayer. That's not even counting all the people that have died due to an inaction of Buffy's (see for example S2 Angelus) or because they were 'bad' guys.

    The only reason why Buffy is after Faith as much as she is is because it's personal. This is a long running problem with Buffy and the Scoobies. Who cares that they don't see the victims (like Anya's, Spike's or even Faith's in S3), that's all fine. But God help anyone (except Spike) if they go against the Scoobies directly, then it's justified to kill/murder that person. It's a slippery slope morality that ended in moral bankruptcy. So I'm not going to be on Buffy's side on this, ever.
     
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  14. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Why is that a given? When you murder three people, it is usually up to others to decide what you deserve.
    Angel's motivation for helping Faith is also personal. Angel and Buffy often forego conventional morality and chose to rely on their gut and their heart. That puts you into muddy territory. Sanctuary is similar to Lies Our Parent Told. There, Buffy is on the other side, protecting a killer from his victim. Robin's desire for retribution is understandable. He may even be right. Who's to say?
    Pot is stupid. All the cattle around here are brown or reddish brown.
     
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  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Because as some people have already mentioned, you can't force a slayer to do squat. You can't force a slayer to turn good/bad and you can't force them into a jail or whatever. She has to want to. And that's what Angel did for Faith. He helped get her on the path where she willingly chose to repent and where she chose the human way to do so, jail. And her sentence was decided by others. So what you mention is supposed to happen actually did happen. So what's the problem exactly?

    It's not even remotely close to Lies Joss Whedon Told Me. There Buffy threatens a human with death by vampire if he dares to inconvenience her again. How is that in any way similar to Angel/Faith in Sanctuary? You don't see Angel threatening anyone that he would sick Faith on them if they stepped out of line. But again, LMPTM is the slippery slope morality in that Buffy doesn't care that Nikki died at Spike's hands and that Wood is a living relative of one of Spike's victims. Because Nikki is out of sight, out of mind. And even if Nikki was a close personal friend of Buffy's she still wouldn't care, because Spike. Faith deserves Buffy's wrath still even in S7 but Spike has his butt wiped by Buffy despite him having committed similar crimes against her. Xander was right, different rules for Buffy's f*** toy. But it's a rule all the scoobies have (see also Xander and Anya) and why they are the last people who have the right to morally judge anyone.
     
  16. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    What do you base that on? The fact that Faith can jump through a glass window and smash bathroom tiles? Even so, that gives Faith the power to chose her punishment, no the right.
    There are lots of problem. I would have to make a list. Buffy wanted some validation of her feeling from her supposed soul-mate, whom she risked her life to save from Faith's poisoned arrow.
    Inconvenience? Robin was going to torture and kill Spike. Imagine if Buffy had travelled to LA, constructed a torture chamber in a garage, invited Faith under a pretence of friendship and then beaten her to death.

    I like Faith, and I like Angel's sympathy for her. Still, I have no problem understanding Buffy's anger. People forget just how terrifyingly evil Faith was before she went to jail. I'd rather be killed by a spike to the head than a a spray box flame thrower.
     
  17. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Buffy herself has made it clear during the Faith two-parter on BtVS. She questioned whether or not to turn Faith over to the police. Because one the police can't hold her and two wouldn't know what to do with her (rehabilitation I'm guessing). Am I supposed to believe Buffy doesn't know what she's talking about?

    What feelings? Her desire for MURDER? I can't believe we are even going there. Why would anyone ever support someone who wants to murder? When is murder ever right (which is different from killing btw) and something that should be supported?

    And for the record Angel didn't want Buffy to risk her life to save him, she forced it on him after he had already said NO.

    Robin's own course of revenge inconvenienced Buffy, yes. And Robin has every right to kill when Spike acts very much like he doesn't have a soul. We kill evil vampires on this show (except plot armored ones), do we not? The monster that killed his mother is still there, something fans often forget. Much like Angelus is still inside Angel. The demon isn't gone, he's just not in control at the moment. Robin is also not familiar with the concept apparently, since neither Spike nor Buffy or anyone else can't be bothered to really explain the difference. Though again when it comes to Spike, not much difference between pre and post soul for me, hence I totally get why Wood isn't convinced either. But if Spike is supposed to be a 'new person' and his previous crimes don't count against him, then no Wood wanting to murder him was wrong.

    I'm not saying Faith didn't do wrong. It's just Buffy's reaction I have problems with. I have no problem with her wanting to take out Faith in S3 for example. Faith was a slayer, which means super human half demon, it's Buffy job to stop those kinds of things. Buffy and Angel both tried to help her but Faith chose evil. And since she was the one who shot Angel, she should be the one to cure him. Buffy was essentially both doing her job and self-defense on Angel's part. However under the law what Buffy tried to do was still murder.

    What Faith did in S4 was of course wrong again and again I'm not excusing it. But it wasn't nearly as bad as the events of S3 (because the body count was lower) and IMO Riley had it just as bad as Buffy (both were raped by Faith) but he's not off storming after Faith to kill her. I understand her anger at Faith, however I will not support her need for murder here. And neither will Angel, mostly because Angel doesn't even know about the bodyswap from what I can gather from the episodes. Giles only said it was rough but the bodyswap is never mentioned which is a logical conclusion because otherwise this conflict can't happen. For Angel to remain so steadfast in his support of Faith and knowing about the bodyswap would have been much too OOC. Instead to Angel it seems like Faith slept with Riley and Buffy is pissed her boyfriend cheater on her, which to Angel is no reason why he should let Buffy murder Faith.
     
  18. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Just a trivial point: Buffy may have been cleared of assault and murder of her friends (and that makes sense), but she still resisted arrest and assaulted officers as well. I actually think many cops would be petty enough to hold that against Buffy more than her killing someone they don't even know, and the SPD might feel pressured to make more arrests anyway going by all the unsolved crimes (though I'd love to see their report on the Ted sitch). That could potentially send Buffy to prison right there. In any case, just because the DA drops charges of homicide against Buffy doesn't mean that she gets a pass for resisting arrest or hitting cops. (In my head canon, the police drop the charges because they realize on some level that Buffy is making Sunnydale safer for cops to patrol--not all cops would realize it, mind you, but enough to give Buffy more of a break than anyone else would get. I'd personally be more interested in included a Sunnydale cop into the cast than Kate in ATS.)

    And the cops really don't know who busted into the sporting goods store and then wrecked a police car leaving officers injured? Snyder wasn't lying when he said Sunnydale cops are deeply stupid. It's not like Sunnydale is an urbanized area of countless faces.

    Btw, it's not explained why the cops are after Faith in season 4. They weren't after her when Faith got stabbed, so why when she comes out of her coma? (I have my head canon here as well, but the show never showed it.)
     
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  19. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I know Buffy says something like apologize to me and I'll best you to death or something like that but she also says that Faith needs to be in jail right? I never got the impression that Buffy wanted to kill Faith in Sanctuary. She prob wanted to beat the shit out of her. I think Angel was worried that if Buffy pushed too hard Faith would run and go back to her evil ways.
     
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  20. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Jail as the non murder option. However if Faith doesn't go there, Buffy will take option #2 which is murder. She wants Faith gone, period. I don't see why Buffy wouldn't be serious about murdering Faith. Buffy has already tried to murder Faith once so she is absolutely capable of it. And again, where is this need for murder when it comes to Spike? Or the need for justice when it comes to Anya? Buffy tolerates both and even f***s one of them later on. Where is the justice for their victims? Buffy doesn't care because it didn't happen to her personally (except Spike was personal but she adopted Joyce's selective memory apparently). That's not a morality I will ever support. That would be like me going 'oh I won't turn this mass murderer in because he hasn't murdered anyone I know and not tried to murder me so I don't care'. And it gets even worse in S7 with Faith vs Spike and how Buffy treats them. But Buffy (and the Scoobies) has been on this slippery slope for years which ended with total moral bankruptcy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017