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Sanctuary B/A scene

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by dcai0830, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    @thrasherpix Maybe the police decided to lay the case against Buffy rest, because the officers had been a little too trigger happy. I mean, you can shoot a seven feet tall black man and get away with it, but killing an unarmed 17 year old blonde girl will get you on the news.
     
    thrasherpix: Bah, they'd just try that much harder to make her look guilty of something, and that "I feared for my life." Neither they nor Snyder would say they shot at her as she ran off unarmed. They can also claim it was a "warning shot" since it didn't hit her.
    Fool for Buffy and Priceless like this.
  2. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    Are you referring to Andrews line "No one in our camp trusts you" in Damage AtS S5? I don`t think ist was ever confirmed, that this message came from Buffy or that she knew about Andrews trip to L.A. at all.

    Flow
     
  3. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I'm talking about "Lie to Me"
    "Sanctuary" and "Damage"
     
  4. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    But Buffy does not appear in Damage. That was why I was wondering if you were referring to Andrew when you talked about a slap in the face in AtS S5. As i mentioned, it was never confirmed if she knew about what happened in Damage at all, let alone agreeing with Andrews (and probably Giles) distrust.

    flow
     
  5. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    Sure it's never confirmed. But it is in keeping with the theme of Buffy doesn't trust Angel.
     
  6. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    There was a thread a couple of month ago especially referring to the trust issue in Damage. If your interested I will look if I can find it. I don`t think that Buffy distrusting Angel is a recurring theme on the Buffyverse. It is she being hurt in Sanctuary and a faked message from Giles and Andrew in Damage. I have to rewatch Lie To Me, because I don`t remember the scene you mentioned. Of course you might still be right after all and he is just not to be trusted......:D

    flow
     
  7. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    In lie to me she says "I love you, I don't know if I trust you" its re: the Drusilla stuff.

    Don't get me wrong I don't AGREE that Angel is untrustworthy. Quite the opposite. I think Angel has never given Buffy a reason not to trust him. If you can link the convo on Damage that would be cool. I would love to read about it!
     
  8. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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  9. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I just watched Lie To Me and Buffys line comes not only after she has seen Angel with a very beautiful female vampire but also after he has told her that she stayed at home at the time he really was out meeting Dru. No matter what reason he had to lie to Buffy and if those reasons where justified, Buffys line was before any of those reasons were ever given. He lied to her. That should be a good enough reason, not to trust him.

    flow
     
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  10. Tez

    Tez Townie

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    I think what angel is talking about when he says he's not allowed too is because when buffy walks in he's trying to calm faith down and buffy thinks it's was more so kicks up Mary shit over it also I agree with angel on buffy not knowing him he did change a lot on buffy I felt he was pretty much buddy's shadow in way whereas you get to see him become his own person and very slowly start to open up tbh I feel the episode would've been better without buffy I wanted to punch her through the whole episode
     
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  11. Kairos

    Kairos Joyous Rebel

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    There's a certain subcategory of lying where you take the two seconds before you say something to convince yourself it's true, because you don't really want to lie but you want this thing to be true for as long as it takes to have whatever effect you're going for. I think that was Buffy when she says she loves Riley, and that's why she never said it to him - it stopped being true as soon as she stopped being so angry at Angel.
     
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  12. crazysoulless

    crazysoulless Scooby

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    Angel sided with someone who stripped Buffy naked and spread Buffy's thighs and forced Buffy to get penetrated and thrust into without Buffy's consent. She crawled on a bed in Buffy's body and said to Buffy's boyfriend, "How do you want me? What do you want to do to this body? What nasty little desires have you been itching to try out?" And who went to Buffy's home, punched Buffy's mom in the face, tied her up, held her hostage, and when she thought Buffy wasn't going to show, was just going to stab her to death out of jealousy that Buffy had a new boyfriend. And who knocked Buffy unconscious, handed her over to three men to be drugged, tied to a gurney, chained in the back of a van, and driven out of town to her execution. And who made a rape joke about her. And who used her money to book a flight out of the country in her body with the intention of permanently stealing her identity.

    And notice Buffy didn't attack Faith in Sanctuary. Faith on the other hand awoke from the coma and physically attacked Buffy multiple times.

    I'm on Buffy's side.

    Angel didn't even bother to ask what happened to her.

    How would you handle it if the person you lost your virginity to punched you in the face to protect the feelings of the person who raped you?

    And before you say Buffy hit him first, HE GRABBED HER ARM. There are at least a half dozen episodes showing Buffy views a man grabbing her arm as a threat. She's a soldier, sexual assault victim, Slayer, and has PTSD. Heck, when Giles grabbed Faith's arm in the comics to get her attention she stabbed him in the hand with a fork.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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  13. EarthLogic

    EarthLogic Class Protector

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    I think that's rather unfair. Angel had no true understanding of what had happened in Sunnydale and all he managed to get out of Giles was that 'it was rough'. He probably thought of it as something similar to what happened back when he was in Sunnydale. Faith also only tells him that she slept with Riley, not that she'd stolen Buffy's body. When Buffy turns up in L.A. Angel has already spent a lot of time trying to get Faith to face up to everything she's done and he's the only one who can do that because he's the only one who has an inkling of how far gone she is. So Angel is coming to this from a completely different angle.

    As for not 'bothering' to ask what happened, he actually says 'Buffy let's talk', but she refuses. So when she asks 'do you have any idea what she did to me?' and he says 'Yes', it's quite literal - he does have an idea, but he can't possibly know the full extent - Buffy actually says as much later - unless someone tells him. The scene is also very tense and moves very quickly; there's not much time to really work things out before Wesley comes in to warn them.

    Now I also happen to believe that Buffy has every right to be furious and a little bit irrational about what Faith did to her, but I'm not going to condemn Angel for trying to help Faith just because he doesn't know the details of what Buffy went through. If they'd had more time to talk he likely would have understood.
     
  14. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Don't you just love canon? 'Angel didn't bother to ask?' *points to on screen evidence to the contrary*

    IMO expecting Angel to know something we know for a fact he can't know, is asking a little much. No way would this episode work if Angel actually knew about the bodyswap. Because then him defending Faith would be completely OOC.
     
  15. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Angel may not have known the details of Faith's recent crimes (except her torture of Wesley, of course) but he did have a pretty good idea of the kinds of depravities Faith was capable of. Furthermore, he is speaking to the only person who forgave him for Angelus and the person who gave her blood and almost her life to save him from Faith's poison. When Buffy said it was bad, Angel should have taken her word for it.

    @crazysoulless We should start a We-Hate-Faith club :p
     
    Priceless: Kennedy > Faith
    crazysoulless: I'll be the President of the We Hate Faith club. You rape Buffy, you don't get a redemption arc.
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  16. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    The comparison with Angelus is not applicable because of the clear dichotomy between Angel/Angelus. Whereas the actions committed by Faith were her's with her soul well in tact.

    What the others say above is right. Angel wanted to talk to Buffy about the Faith issue (similarly to how the handled Faith in Season 3) but no, she just came in like the Tasmanian devil threatening to beat a human to death. Angel is really only doing what Buffy asked him to do a year ago - find a way to help Faith, to reach her. Buffy is blinded by rage at this moment and doesn't allow them to figure things out.

    I don't like Angel hitting Buffy. I have said that above I think it's wildly OOC for him to have done so but I also think that Angel did not have the full information and knowledge of exactly what Faith did.

    That being said, even if he did know - I still think that Angel would have maintained his position that Faith needed help - his help. Because truthfully, forcing Faith to turn herself into the police wouldn't have worked - she is a supernatural being. She had to go willingly. And even Buffy seems against the idea of having Faith face the council. So who is left to help her (we are back in the same position we were in Season 3.)? Which is why Faith needed someone to help her see that she needed help and ultimately what Angel's influence prompted her to do was to turn herself in.
     
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  17. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I wasn't making a comparison. Angel would probably have wanted Buffy to kill him in Innocent, but she didn't, because she loved him too much. She loved him when he came back and nursed him back to health when everyone else Angel knew (excluding perhaps Willow) hated him. Buffy saved him from suicide in Amends. Then she risks her life twice in Graduation to save him from Faith. Buffy gave Angel so much and it cost her dearly and I don't see him honouring that in this episode.

    Also, I must question his tactics. Shouting and hitting? Who does he think he is dealing with? If Angel had let Buffy vent, validated her feelings and then explained his position, I think everything could have worked out fine.
    ______________________________________

    "You have no idea what it's like on the other side! Where nothing's in control, nothing makes sense! There is just pain and hate and nothing you do means anything. You can't even..."

    Someone needs to give Faith BtVS s2 on DVD so she can catch up.
     
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  18. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    And I would say that Angel is actually exactly honoring Buffy in this episode. By caring out the work she started with Faith in Season 3. Buffy is the one who initiated the whole "we need to help her" mantra. And I see the progression of his decision to help Faith in the Faith Arc/episodes. When Angel first finds out that Faith has arrived and gets off of the phone with Giles he is pissed and he wastes no time when he first sees Faith, she gives him the gun and he straight up goes to shoot her (maybe not to kill her but to hurt her). He doesn't seem all that interested in helping her then because he is so angry to hear that Faith did something to Buffy:

    Wesley: "Did she do something to Buffy?"
    Angel: "Giles just said it was rough."
    Wesley: "I'm sorry. But if you let emotion control you right now, one of you will certainly end up dead."
    Angel: "Yeah, that's what the lady wants."
    Wesley: "That's not good enough! She's not a demon, Angel. She is a sick, sick girl. If there is even a chance she can be reasoned with..."


    It's not until Faith breaks down and asks Angel to kill him that he realizes that Buffy was right to begin with in Consequences:

    Angel: Look, I... I don't want you to get your hopes up, Buffy. She may not want us to help her.
    Buffy: She does. She just doesn't know how to say it.

    I think that Angel was absolutely honoring Buffy by helping Faith he was paying it forward the same way that Buffy found that Angel was worthy of redemption, the same way she initially felt that Faith was worthy of redemption. The direct comparison is made in earlier in the episode:

    Faith: "I've got to be the first Slayer in history sponsored by a vampire."
    Angel: "Yeah, well, I've got some experience in that area, too." (Referring to Buffy)


    It's just that when Buffy arrives she is so angry she can't see the big picture. Anyway that's my opinion.
     
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  19. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    [sarcasm]Buffy may be a tough superhero able to make tough choices, but she's still a WOMAN. That means she must be treated with kid gloves as women are inherently fragile mentally, emotionally, and physically. The Patriarchy exists to give women the tender loving care the princesses need since they are unable to assume full maturity, but unfortunately the Patriarchy either doesn't know or doesn't care that women are inherently weaker than men (or take advantage of it like the Watchers Council) so that they abuse women instead of protecting the fragile creatures! Next they'll abuse children and those in sickbeds!

    And please, nothing about how Buffy was marching after Faith in a rage that was at least half jealousy. Being a woman, Buffy would've only made passive aggressive arguments about her hair because the fight/flight instinct is nearly nonexistent in women, so there was no real danger beyond their mascara running. If they attacked each other, they're still women, and would be no worse than gentle love taps as they cry at each other, though if the slapping and hair pulling gets too intense (perhaps even reaching "rat tails" level) then throw them pillows, and perhaps call in Dr. Phil. Don't forget the chocolate ice cream! [/sarcasm]
     
  20. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    And Angel is so self-righteous that he forgets the big picture is a mosaic of little pictures. Little pictures of Buffy watching Angel die from a fever. I love that Angel wanted to help Faith, but the way he treated Buffy was not cool. If Faith deserves redemption, it should not come at the expense of her victims.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2017 ---
    sooooo, when you reach this state of full maturity, it will take you less than two seconds to forgive someone who murders, rapes and tortures?
     
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