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Sarah Michelle Gellar Is Hopeful

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Spanky

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What's so precious about franchises from your childhood? Genuine question. It's not as though the original will disappear in a puff of smoke.
I liken it to when novels were made into movies and changed aspects of the books. People would say that the movie wasn't true to the source material or that they changed too much of it; that the movie didn't honor the novel or its fans.

But in this case it's worse as the creator (and to a lesser degree its star) came out to assure fans that is the "same" thing that they knew, just more adult. And that the show centers around the same character that the original did. Only for it to be released and it's done a 180.
 

TriBel

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But in this case it's worse as the creator (and to a lesser degree its star) came out to assure fans that is the "same" thing that they knew, just more adult. And that the show centers around the same character that the original did. Only for it to be released and it's done a 180.
Yeah...I knew that - I checked it out when you first posted the article and from that perspective (they were lied to), I can understand people's anger. I also understand, in theory, why people are attached to shows from their childhood - but I think that often speaks more to an idealisation of childhood/youth than it does to the worth of the show.
 

Btvs fan

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Yeah...I knew that - I checked it out when you first posted the article and from that perspective (they were lied to), I can understand people's anger. I also understand, in theory, why people are attached to shows from their childhood - but I think that often speaks more to an idealisation of childhood/youth than it does to the worth of the show.

Why do you feel that is wrong ?
Besides it really any different to Buffy and Angel. Both are 20 year old shows after all.

At the end of the day they could've easily used She Ra as the main character and they didn't, ask yourself why ?
 
Hunga Munga
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She Ra already has her own Netflix show ...and it's not bad either . Bit cutesy for me but some good writing in there

Spanky

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I think that often speaks more to an idealisation of childhood/youth than it does to the worth of the show.
Childhood/youth does play a role but it's not everything. It's more like what we view as the desecration of something important to us. It doesn't have to come from childhood (or media for that matter). It's more about purists.
 

TriBel

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It doesn't have to come from childhood. It's more about purists.
I can kinda see that with some shows (BtVS for instance where the audience is older) but not with He-Man. Even my kids had grown out of it at 5/6. It's like me being attached to Andy Pandy or Noddy & Big Ears. I didn't even know He-Man was a thing anymore.
 

Spanky

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I can kinda see that with some shows (BtVS for instance where the audience is older) but not with He-Man. Even my kids had grown out of it at 5/6. It's like me being attached to Andy Pandy or Noddy & Big Ears. I didn't even know He-Man was a thing anymore.
They just rebooted it a few years ago. Had a few spin offs. Comics. Yeah, it's still pretty popular. It's niche though.
 

Hunga Munga

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Previous reboots weren't slaves to the original either . Like I mentioned , some of the 2002 version is borderline adult animation . It's basically the reason I know anything about He Man at all . GI Joe is similar , an awful toy peddling cartoon that became so successful , it had a profile that got much better shows made later . I'm gagging for the rest of GI Joe Renegades to drop on Youtube :D . That's a good show from a bad toy advert . Let's hope the Netflix He Man is similar .
 

TriBel

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Why do you feel that is wrong ?
Why do I think what is wrong? Idealizing childhood? I didn't say it was wrong...in fact it's almost inevitable but I also think looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses (whether you do it as an individual or as a nation) can be damaging. Often, the past becomes idyllic only retrospectively because the present doesn't live up to expectations. Because the present's lacking we misremember the past. Wasn't it Dylan Thomas who said “I can never remember whether it snowed for six days and six nights when I was twelve or whether it snowed for twelve days and twelve nights when I was six.”? That's fine if our only concern is snow. What bothers me is our tendency to put the blame for wider social ills onto "the other" rather than an incomplete and mythologized past that only serves the interests of a (wealthy) minority. It's more complicated than that but that's the basics.

At one time "Nostalgia" used to considered an actual illness - "homesickness". TBH, I think it's what S5-7 of BtVS are about.
It's more about purists.
Get your point but somehow find the word ominous.

@Spanky No - I do understand it - it's just in the present context it bothers me. If I'm good at anything it's conceptual leaps. 😄
 
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Spanky
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Was going to elaborate but it would have went much further off topic. Had I done so, you would not have found the word ominous.

DeadlyDuo

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@TriBel I disagree with everything you've said. Yellow peril was said in the context of the lib Dems whose party colour is yellow. When the racial connotations were pointed out he apologized. I've edited this post so it can't be classed as political.

Like @Spanky said, it's spitting in the face of something beloved from someone's childhood all to make a quick buck
 
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thetopher

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I get why people got angry because the show suffers from the same problems a lot of woke shows have; they have two modes to a reboot/rebrand; the gender/race swap or the deconstruction trope. Rinse and repeat whilst pretended to 'do homage' to the original IP.
It's garbage marketing but it usually suckers some in the short term. And it might not be such an obvious problem if there was...any good writing behind those same tired woke tropes but there really isn't. However its a good shield to dismiss genuine critics with since if they don't like it then (of course) they're effing man-babies who hate 'strong' women, are racists and probably homophobic to boot.
I'm not saying that there is necessarily causation between crap writing and woke... but there is strong correlation at this point; so many IPs run straight into the ground (Star Wars/Trek, Doctor Who, Terminator, etc) by those who think diversity is, I dunno, enough on its own. It isn't.

But hey, I hear Lord Of The Rings and Highlander are up next. Oh joy.
 

Btvs fan

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I get why people got angry because the show suffers from the same problems a lot of woke shows have; they have two modes to a reboot/rebrand; the gender/race swap or the deconstruction trope. Rinse and repeat whilst pretended to 'do homage' to the original IP.
It's garbage marketing but it usually suckers some in the short term. And it might not be such an obvious problem if there was...any good writing behind those same tired woke tropes but there really isn't. However its a good shield to dismiss genuine critics with since if they don't like it then (of course) they're effing man-babies who hate 'strong' women, are racists and probably homophobic to boot.
I'm not saying that there is necessarily causation between crap writing and woke... but there is strong correlation at this point; so many IPs run straight into the ground (Star Wars/Trek, Doctor Who, Terminator, etc) by those who think diversity is, I dunno, enough on its own. It isn't.

But hey, I hear Lord Of The Rings and Highlander are up next. Oh joy.

I don't think it's woke just to be woke. Some of those who make shows claim to be anti racist or feminist, in reality can be very racist and misogynistic. While the others will live in very white very gated communities amd would be appalled if there daughter brought home a boyfriend of colour (the movie Get Out was attacking these very people)

I think it's a more cynical calculation than simple promotion of values, that of trying to appeal to bigger audience. Basically a glorified version of selling New Coke. We know Disney tried to do that with Starwars in China but with disastrous results.
 
DeadlyDuo
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Anti-racist does not mean non-racist.

nightshade

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Let's keep this on topic, and lay off all the woke remarks
 

thrasherpix

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Let's keep this on topic, and lay off all the woke remarks

The word is convenient (and should be owned by those who came up with it in the first place even if it's been used against them now), so what word is appropriate?

While similar to the PC of the 90s, this is something that seems peculiar to our particular time. If we're not to use the word "woke" then what word should we use without dancing around it?

It needs to be something that doesn't conflate genuine good values some associate with the word with the word itself. To call what's happening now as "revolutionary" or "just" or something like that is inaccurate, though one those who call themselves woke would love to have happen. This is about cynical corporate formulas, trends, and kneejerk reactions (poor communication at best, hypocritical self-deceit that exacerbates rather than alleviates the problems it pretends to address at worst). That is, "woke" is not what it claims to be, and is distinct from what they want us to think it is.
 

TriBel

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While similar to the PC of the 90s, this is something that seems peculiar to our particular time. If we're not to use the word "woke" then what word should we use without dancing around it?
It's not though...as I said it's had almost 100 years of use in the black vernacular. It's demonisation is of our time. And when I hear Nobel and Pulitzer price winning Toni Morrison's Beloved described as "Politically Correct" then I give up. PS. the black author of Colour of Purple was Alice Walker.
 
T
thrasherpix
I'm aware of the history of the word, but it has morphed into something different. I don't consider the word accurate anymore than I consider North Korea an actual republic.

nightshade

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I meant that it's not something that needs to be discussed at all, all it does is take the thread off topic.
 

thetopher

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I don't think it's woke just to be woke. Some of those who make shows claim to be anti racist or feminist, in reality can be very racist and misogynistic. While the others will live in very white very gated communities amd would be appalled if there daughter brought home a boyfriend of colour (the movie Get Out was attacking these very people)

I tend to disagree. I think these people are sincere in their love of 'progressiveism' and 'diversity' its just they feel compelled to force this to the detriment of story and character, they don't seem to weave the two things together. As an example the show Batwoman isn't awful because Kate Kane is gay, its awful because of garbage writing, character and theme. Kate Kane is a character who has more villainous aspects than heroic ones; she's prideful, entitled, morally bankrupt and, by the end of the season she's a multiple murderer. The skill to explore progressive topics in any nuanced or balanced way just isn't there. We simply have newb Batwoman spouting 'acab' and other buzzwords with zero exploration of what those things mean.

And although this could be interpretted as just shallow use of these terms to gain progressive brownie points (although strangely such writing never leads to massive viewing figures. Curious) I would possit that really the problem is that these writers world view is so narrow that they cannot imagine, perhaps ever even encountered an opposing pov unless its a strawman they saw on John Oliver one time. So therefore these writers bring up progressive topics but can do nothing with them. I mean, how strong can an idea really be if it can't sustain a challenge or even exploration in an art form?



But back to MotU and we can spot the pattern that these writers use; they grab an IP, usually a long dead one, and- claiming that they want to 'reinvigorate whilst paying homage to the original'- set out their stall of progressiveness. Now He-Man was not a great cartoon, it was iconic because 1) It didn't have much competition back in those days and 2) the toys were so much fun and you could create you're own stories with them. Plus He-Man usually had a nice little moral message at the end of an episode. So what could a progressive do with such a franchise?
...

Producer: So we've finally nabbed the He-Man IP and we've got so many great ideas...so why don't you tell them to me. Go on, make me look good.

Half-Decent writer: Um...well, I was thinking... that He-Man is like seen as this powerful force in Eternia; a physical and moral one...and maybe we could play around with what that could be like. Explore how much of a burden is it on him? He's like the first and last line of defence. Okay, so he's got his allies, but Skeletor is always gunning for him in the end, right? The sorceress relies on him. Plus there's the secret ID angle. He's a prince so we can have courtly intrigue maybe...Also we should definitely flesh out the other characters more like Teela-
Progressive Writer: Finally! Finally you're hitting on something original. I mean, who wants to see more stories about straight-white male Adam. He's so utterly boring and totally done.
H-D writer: Well, does he have to be? If we're aiming this franchise in a grittier direction then-
P Writer: Okay, so why don't we address the number one key issue head on; day in, day on He-Man lies to Teela. All the time. What would that do to her? Utter betrayal right? No greater crime in my view.
H-D writer: I guess its part of the hackneyed secret ID thing, but he was doing it for a reason-
P Writer: Honestly couldn't we make He-Man gay? I mean, he's really macho. Too macho, really. Toxic? Actually no, let's get rid of him altogether. Reveal his secret and like-
H-D writer: Don't say it. Don't say it.
P-Writer: Deconstruct his character. And we'll do it whilst he's not even there. Yeah, we make the first episode mostly about him and then write him out with some fairy tale crap. Then make it about Teela and make her the main character. Give her a female sidekick to play off.

Producer: Interesting.

H-D Writer: Wait a sec...you can't not have He-Man-
P-Writer: Also make the sidekick a Poc colour, Eternia is way, way too pale. It's disgusting and racist.

Producer: A black side-kick? That's...problematic.
P-Writer: We can hint at something more...maybe an unspoken romance between the two. We can get around it that way. Also give Teela a tumblr hair-cut and the fans will ship the hell out of them.
Producer: *ticks more boxes* I'm loving this.

H-D Writer: Maybe we could start with the plot and then....
P-Writer: The plot is for Teela to rescue He-Man obviously. There, just make it a quest; she can team up with...who's the evil female character?
H-D Writer: *sigh* Evilyn.
P-Writer: Fine. So then we have the empowered females rescue the useless men. We can dig into Teela's character more and give her an arc about how she just has to believe in herself and then she can do anything. Maybe she's afraid of her own feminine power? Maybe she's burdened by it.
H-D Writer: So that's basically what I said about He-Man's, and he's now in it like, two episodes.
P-Writer: I suppose, but here's the best part. We *spoilers* him in the last episode. So subversive.

...

The problem with these progressive writers is that, basically, they have zero respect (nay reverence) for the IP they're handling. Because its not about building onto that IP and creating something that's a new, fresh, exciting part of it, its more about destroying what came before to make 'their' thing look better by comparison. So the new Ghostbusters will not be working shlubs scrambling for a living but fierce action stars who shoot Staypuff between the legs and remark that Bill Murray 'wasn't really Ghostbusters material'.
So action icon Sarah Connor can tell Dani that she's 'just a womb' and then the writers can declare how progressive they are by making a *gasp* woman the leader of a future resistance? Well that's flummoxed me. It's not like in Terminator Kyle Reese told Sarah that she was a legend when he came from, that she taught, trained and molded John Connor into the hero that defeated Skynet. Shut up, womb.
So in episode 3 of S1 of Batwoman she will declare that she isn't Batman...but that maybe she can be better; a heroine that will not stay in the shadows but will demand credit every single time. Hm, maybe being a Bat-person wasn't the right career move.
So Luke Skywalker, once hero of the Rebellion and great Jedi but now a cowardly, defeated hermit, can be lectured about not giving up on a relative gone bad by some perfect, saintly rando he just met.

Sorry for the ramble, if it sounds like I'm angry then I'm not, just disappointed and tired. I just wish there were more Cobra Kai's out there, that takes the friggin' Karate Kid trilogy and makes it fresh and fun and invigorating again. See, it can be done but it needs half decent writers and a willingness to treat something that people love and invest in with respect. Maybe that's too much to ask.

And yes, I think this Masters Of The Universe thing broke me.
 
B
Btvs fan
Make HE-Man gay . But i thought he already was gay. I mean its been a joke/point since the cartoon?

Spanky

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The problem with these progressive writers is that, basically, they have zero respect (nay reverence) for the IP they're handling.
I don't know if that's really accurate or not
Zh9KxNd.jpg

Oh, okay, so maybe it is.
 
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