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Scoobies behaving badly

Nearwild

Townie
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
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37
As much as I love all the Scooby gang, at some point they have all done horrible things. From trying to end the world, to carelessly releasing demons, what do you think are the worst behaviours we see from Buffy's friends?

For me, Xander turning against Buffy in Empty Places really stings, as just days before he gives such a great speech about how much he believes in her. Makes it seem like that faith is only on condition she personally keeps him safe. Surely he knows the risks by now?
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,448
Location
Canada
Sineya
Xander's harangue against Buffy in Dead Man's Party made him irredeemably obnoxious.
Willow casting a spell so that Oz would never find love again after his alliance with Veruca was pure evil.
Xander recommending Buffy chase after Riley in Into the Woods shows his continued lack of awareness of events going on around him.
The scoobies inability to distinguish the Buffybot from Buffy shows a lack of awareness on their part.
Xander's jealousy made him unpleasant to have around.
Xander commissioning Amy to do a love spell in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered didn't do anyone any favours.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
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Age
38
I tend to be understanding of characters even when they do something despicable. Which includes Buffy, by the way, she doesn't get a pass simply because she's the protagonist.

(And I'm not including season 7, which I consider the season of character assassinations though I can see why some would see s6 for that, and is the only season in which I actually dislike Buffy as a character and--having no awareness that it's a TV show with vanadium steel plot armor for Buffy with mind boggling arbitrary writing that turned me off the series so that it was years before I gave Angel a try--would've been on the mutiny against her as well. But not to the point of kicking her out of her own home, though that's far from the dumbest thing of this season's writing, and by the way, Buffy was a jerk kicking someone else out of his home right after despite all the abandoned homes available, but we're apparently supposed to laugh it off.)



My immediate impression for Xander is a tie between Xander going after Spike with an ax and her giving Buffy the speech to chase Riley...I'd say the latter, but at a gut level the latter really does feel more like a Xander Puppet for the writers than Xander the character for me. At least I can understand Xander going homicidal (which I don't consider his normal state of mind, nor does it condone what he did, and this is also one of the rare times I'll defend Spike's actions which is ironic given many who will excuse Spike about anything condemn him here) whereas the latter is something he had no business in. (I'd say summoning Sweet, but I just can't buy he did that, just as I can't buy Spike was really the so-called Doctor.)

Willow was far more egregious, particularly with mind control spells. Can't forget Tara trying something similar once to hide her demon self, though I do sympathize with Tara doing it (as I do so many of the others as they screw up), but it's real close to doing what Willow did, and as reckless (I wish Tara brought this up when she started getting preachy about Willow being reckless with magic).

Naturally, Xander's attempted revenge against Cordelia also counts here, but he also tried to undo the damage once he realized how wrong it had went, and I'd still say less than what Willow did casually, and for convenience, later on, and he did suffer for having done so in more ways than one despite some saying otherwise despite the examples pointed out repeatedly (the only reason I'm not counting Cordelia making her wish is because she didn't know what she was doing, though she wasn't displeased at first, just as Xander wasn't).

There was When She Was Bad for Buffy, and Dead Man Party for the Scoobies.

But Giles worse is when that birthday ritual he put Buffy through, even if he did a full reverse before the end. (Personally, and taking the character's established personality traits and roles into account, I think I could if I were Buffy I could forgive him, though I understand why others would say they would not in her place, but Joyce...Giles must truly be a stevedore for Joyce to brush off what happened to her and Buffy both!)

Though understandable to me...Giles sums up my sentiments perfectly...Buffy hiding Angel was something she really shouldn't have done. Many focus on Xander's behavior, but Buffy doesn't get a pass from me. Even Cordy had a point against her.

And gods, Buffy vs Cordy over that high school competition. They were horrible to each other. But that just makes it all the better when they find themselves in a life and death situation and instead of turning on (or at least abandoning) the other, they save each other, which shows just how noble both of them are despite being shallow at times (including one of my favorite Cordelia moments in saving Buffy from Gorch by pretending to be Faith).




Okay, I've made up my mind (at least for now)...it was Anya trying to trick Xander's friends into wishing horrible things on Xander. That was not only vile in of itself, but would've been devastating to the one who made the wish. (And not to absolve Xander completely, but I found it near impossible to sympathize with Anya that after a thousand years of vicious vengeance that she still bragged about that she got a small taste of her own medicine from a former victim of hers.)



Xander turning against Buffy in Empty Places really stings, as just days before he gives such a great speech about how much he believes in her. Makes it seem like that faith is only on condition she personally keeps him safe. Surely he knows the risks by now?
I'm surprised you'd choose Xander in this scene. All he said was he didn't see her point while all the others (including Anya, Giles, and Dawn) were far more harsh. And Xander has the excuse for being demoralized and having his faith shaken over account of having just lost his eye (unlike Willow who also expressed doubts in Buffy's judgment).
 

Nearwild

Townie
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Messages
22
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37
I tend to be understanding of characters even when they do something despicable. Which includes Buffy, by the way, she doesn't get a pass simply because she's the protagonist.

(And I'm not including season 7, which I consider the season of character assassinations though I can see why some would see s6 for that, and is the only season in which I actually dislike Buffy as a character and--having no awareness that it's a TV show with vanadium steel plot armor for Buffy with mind boggling arbitrary writing that turned me off the series so that it was years before I gave Angel a try--would've been on the mutiny against her as well. But not to the point of kicking her out of her own home, though that's far from the dumbest thing of this season's writing, and by the way, Buffy was a jerk kicking someone else out of his home right after despite all the abandoned homes available, but we're apparently supposed to laugh it off.)



My immediate impression for Xander is a tie between Xander going after Spike with an ax and her giving Buffy the speech to chase Riley...I'd say the latter, but at a gut level the latter really does feel more like a Xander Puppet for the writers than Xander the character for me. At least I can understand Xander going homicidal (which I don't consider his normal state of mind, nor does it condone what he did, and this is also one of the rare times I'll defend Spike's actions which is ironic given many who will excuse Spike about anything condemn him here) whereas the latter is something he had no business in. (I'd say summoning Sweet, but I just can't buy he did that, just as I can't buy Spike was really the so-called Doctor.)

Willow was far more egregious, particularly with mind control spells. Can't forget Tara trying something similar once to hide her demon self, though I do sympathize with Tara doing it (as I do so many of the others as they screw up), but it's real close to doing what Willow did, and as reckless (I wish Tara brought this up when she started getting preachy about Willow being reckless with magic).

Naturally, Xander's attempted revenge against Cordelia also counts here, but he also tried to undo the damage once he realized how wrong it had went, and I'd still say less than what Willow did casually, and for convenience, later on, and he did suffer for having done so in more ways than one despite some saying otherwise despite the examples pointed out repeatedly (the only reason I'm not counting Cordelia making her wish is because she didn't know what she was doing, though she wasn't displeased at first, just as Xander wasn't).

There was When She Was Bad for Buffy, and Dead Man Party for the Scoobies.

But Giles worse is when that birthday ritual he put Buffy through, even if he did a full reverse before the end. (Personally, and taking the character's established personality traits and roles into account, I think I could if I were Buffy I could forgive him, though I understand why others would say they would not in her place, but Joyce...Giles must truly be a stevedore for Joyce to brush off what happened to her and Buffy both!)

Though understandable to me...Giles sums up my sentiments perfectly...Buffy hiding Angel was something she really shouldn't have done. Many focus on Xander's behavior, but Buffy doesn't get a pass from me. Even Cordy had a point against her.

And gods, Buffy vs Cordy over that high school competition. They were horrible to each other. But that just makes it all the better when they find themselves in a life and death situation and instead of turning on (or at least abandoning) the other, they save each other, which shows just how noble both of them are despite being shallow at times (including one of my favorite Cordelia moments in saving Buffy from Gorch by pretending to be Faith).




Okay, I've made up my mind (at least for now)...it was Anya trying to trick Xander's friends into wishing horrible things on Xander. That was not only vile in of itself, but would've been devastating to the one who made the wish. (And not to absolve Xander completely, but I found it near impossible to sympathize with Anya that after a thousand years of vicious vengeance that she still bragged about that she got a small taste of her own medicine from a former victim of hers.)

I'd forgotten about loads of these- they're even worse than I thought! 🤣 That Anya one in particular is really awful thinking about it- so much more so than sleeping with Spike (which I don't consider technically wrong in any way.)

I'm surprised you'd choose Xander in this scene. All he said was he didn't see her point while all the others (including Anya, Giles, and Dawn) were far more harsh. And Xander has the excuse for being demoralized and having his faith shaken over account of having just lost his eye (unlike Willow who also expressed doubts in Buffy's judgment).
It's a serious injury, but it feels like 'I only believe in you when you're winning. Fail and you're on your own,' especially when juxtaposed with his previous speech about how great she is and how they should all believe in her. It's brutal, public U turn.

Xander's harangue against Buffy in Dead Man's Party made him irredeemably obnoxious.
Willow casting a spell so that Oz would never find love again after his alliance with Veruca was pure evil.
Xander recommending Buffy chase after Riley in Into the Woods shows his continued lack of awareness of events going on around him.
The scoobies inability to distinguish the Buffybot from Buffy shows a lack of awareness on their part.
Xander's jealousy made him unpleasant to have around.
Xander commissioning Amy to do a love spell in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered didn't do anyone any favours.
And Xander's lie about the resouling spell. And cheating on Cordelia. When's he's being awful, he really is the worst.
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
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739
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63
S6 - I think there is absolutely zero excuse for the way they don’t even bother remotely trying to support Buffy in her depression and struggles. Like normally they can hide behind ‘you didn’t talk to us Buffy!’ But actually this time she did, multiple times. There were shockingly bad friends to her this season. I’m also including Giles and his privilege - being depressed and suffering from PTSD is NOT the time to do a ‘you need to level up’ lesson, it’s the time to support. Plus his patronising ‘your Mother was able to deal with this stuff with only 20 years more life experience and a college graduate level job. What’s the difference in you doing it with zero qualifications and a full time unpaid job?’ Schtick. I don’t think he understood the real working class struggle here. His emotional neglect leads to a second slayer under his charge becoming suicidal. I love you Giles but this is your worst act for me. Also Willow and Tara for basically being all ‘yeah here’s the unpaid bills. Sort it out we’re not going to do anything to help’

Buffy tells them multiple times she’s depressed and has been suicidal. They even acknowledge this, we get a scene of them discussing it and what do they do? Nothing, not a single thing. They DO absolve themselves of their own guilt though. They manage to do that, but Buffy herself? Nah, she’ll be fine right? Right?

I feel bad mentioning Dawn because she’s a teen BUT she does actually use Buffy’s depression as a weapon against her at multiple points and makes Buffy feel even more guilty about it. This isn’t teen behaviour. It’s actually shockingly callous

Xander even has the gall in Seeing Red to say ‘you could have told me’. She did, multiple times. As Buffy said ‘you didn’t want to know’ and he didn’t. None of them did, they just wanted to pretend it wasn’t happening because then they’d have to acknowledge that they’re partially responsible for her state of mind.
 
whatdBuffyDo
whatdBuffyDo
The tea ☕
N
Nearwild
True facts here. She almost goes on fire right in front of them, and they just stand there feeling sorry for themselves.

WillowsFaith

Townie
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
59
Age
28
Willow being a Mastered, All powerful witch but keeping Amy as a Rat for Years😂that’s just cruel.

But on a more serious note. She has a control issue, and not just her addiction. The Forget spell she puts on Tara being one example. Cheating with Xander was also a low point. Like young Willow would never cheat, let alone on Oz?! Wtf were the writers doing.
Xander has too many to list.
Giles in S6 and S7 loses points for abandoning Buffy in her most depressive and traumatic moments.
Buffy is the hero and thus bad things happen to her. She doesn’t do too much bad things, except date old serial killers🤷‍♀️I guess
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,159
Age
54
For me it has to be Giles, what with all this buggering back to the UK when Buffy needed him most left her knowing she was screwed up mentally big time, left her knowing she had money problems, left her alone with a young sister , strange sort of fathers love .In season 5 had he not threaten Spike to leave Buffy alone, when he came back he laughs in her face about about her screwed up sex with him, season 7 he is uppity because Buffy relies on Spike and not on him as much
Next the scoobies totally ignoring Buffy and the way she is feeling , putting there own selfish self's first, Spike was perfectly wright when he said I am the only one here for you , as for chucking Buffy out
Next is Dawn what a bitch .....enough said
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
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I also disliked how they portrayed Giles in early season 6.

One, it doesn't strike me as true of his character as shown up to that point.

Two, it makes no sense given how Buffy was the one to get him his job back and face down the Council when he couldn't while also dealing with funerals, a distraught teen, and hell goddesses, so saying she needs to grow up is BS to me anyway as she proved herself far more capable, determined, and adult in season 5 than a great many adults in the real world...even before taking into account the extreme trauma she'd endured and was recovering from (which Giles in earlier seasons would've recognized as such) along with seeing a real problem forming around Willow in season 6.

Cutting Buffy off right then is, to me, like taking someone with fractured bones in the middle of the lake and telling her chin up, swim to shore, can't be coddling her. Fine when she's healthy and trying to push herself to become better, but not when she was in pieces.




I'd be able to overlook it easier had the writers arranged for some emergency for Giles so that he had to leave, having faith in Buffy and the rest given what they've overcome (he's proud of them, not thinking they need to grow up), though still worried about her and Willow both. In this case he could call in but would be delayed, and very sorry to miss the wedding, but asking over the phone how things are Buffy (along with Willow and Xander) tell him it's fine (because they're defensive, ashamed, and also not wanting to add to his burdens).

He could finally learn the truth, maybe Anya even shows up to try to get him to wish something horrible on Xander, and he rushes back (preparing himself first, perhaps some occult items hard to get through customs slowing him down just a bit), so that it can continue as it does at the end of the season.
 
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Faded90

Scooby
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739
Age
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I do think that too much coddling is counterproductive that harms more than heals or helps. Doesn't mean I think there's no place for compassion, empathy, and help (especially with close friends, particularly those thought of as honorary family), and I don't regret my volunteer work helping strangers, but extreme coddling is as bad in my book as extreme individualism.

I say that because people often get the wrong idea when I say I really disliked how they portrayed Giles in early season 6.

One, it doesn't strike me as true of his character as shown up to that point.

Two, it makes no sense given how Buffy was the one to get him his job back and face down the Council when he couldn't while also dealing with funerals, a distrought teen, and hell goddesses, so saying she needs to grow up is BS to me anyway as she proved herself far more capable, determined, and adult in season 5 than a great many adults in the real world...even before taking into account the extreme trauma she'd endured (which Giles in earlier seasons would've recognized as such) along with seeing a real problem forming around Willow in season 6.

Cutting Buffy off right then is, to me, like taking someone with fractured bones in the middle of the lake and telling her chin up, swim to shore, can't be coddling her.




I'd be able to overlook it easier had the writers arranged for some emergency for Giles so that he had to leave, having faith in Buffy and the rest given what they've overcome (he's proud of them, not thinking they need to grow up), though still worried about her and Willow both. In this case he could call in but would be delayed, and very sorry to miss the wedding, but asking over the phone how things are Buffy (along with Willow and Xander) tell him it's fine (because they're defensive, ashamed, and also not wanting to add to his burdens).

He could finally learn the truth, maybe Anya even shows up to try to get him to wish something horrible on Xander, and he rushes back (preparing himself first, perhaps some occult items hard to get through customs slowing him down just a bit, so that it can continue as it does at the end of the season).
I think where they really overdid the ridiculous pills in the writing department with regards to Giles in S6 is his line in Life Serial ‘we’ve just been discussing what you’re going to do with your life?’ Like I’m sorry WHAT?! Let’s not pretend the girls a loafer here. It’s pretending the main theme of the show simply doesn’t exist. Buffys whole deal is that she wants to be able to do normal things but she can’t because she has a calling. It’s consistently said that Buffy can’t do these things - most often by Giles himself. She can’t decide when or where the forces of darkness are going to appear and need her to jump into action, She can’t decide which college she goes to, she can’t even do career day at school because of her slayerness - Giles even acknowledges in this scene that Buffy already has a job and that it’s kind of irrelevant what job she may have had. Giles is very much aware that Buffy is already ‘doing something with her life’ it’s her destiny, her life has already been decided for her. She has a full time with major overtime unpaid job. I genuinely think that line from Giles is the most ridiculous in the entire show. Normal Giles knows full well that Buffy can’t hold down a regular job on fixed hours. Giles of all people knows this! I mean crikey being a slayer even inserted a brand new person into her family tree for her protection

Like I know they were going for a ‘real life sucks’ thing but let’s not completely ignore the entire premise of the show here
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I genuinely think that line from Giles is the most ridiculous in the entire show. Normal Giles knows full well that Buffy can’t hold down a regular job on fixed hours. Giles of all people knows this! I mean crikey being a slayer even inserted a brand new person into her family tree for her protection

Like I know they were going for a ‘real life sucks’ thing but let’s not completely ignore the entire premise of the show here
I don't understand what you mean when you say Giles knows Buffy can't hold down a job with fixed hours, when she went to school for 3 years and then to college for a year, all on fixed hours. Anyone who can turn up to school every day, can do a job.
 

Faded90

Scooby
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I don't understand what you mean when you say Giles knows Buffy can't hold down a job with fixed hours, when she went to school for 3 years and then to college for a year, all on fixed hours. Anyone who can turn up to school every day, can do a job.
And we see multiple times Buffy having to skip school, her teachers don’t even know her name. In College we don’t hear a lot about about her attendance but Walsh talks about her being there ‘most of the time’ and then in S5 we see she’s having to take a class she doesn’t want to do but nothing fits in around her slaying. You can work around it in school and just be labelled a problem student (which Buffy is) but in a job you’d simply be fired. We see her even in Doublemeat Palace her having to run out of work, the only reason she gets to stay is because their previous employees have went missing so they’re just trying to keep hold of people. We see again in S7 when she actually does have a good job she’s still having to keep calling in sick, falling asleep through exhaustion at her desk etc and she only keeps that job because Robin wants to get to know the slayer and then when he has his grudge in a grip he fires her
 

Priceless

Scooby
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And we see multiple times Buffy having to skip school, her teachers don’t even know her name. In College we don’t hear a lot about about her attendance but Walsh talks about her being there ‘most of the time’ and then in S5 we see she’s having to take a class she doesn’t want to do but nothing fits in around her slaying. You can work around it in school and just be labelled a problem student (which Buffy is) but in a job you’d simply be fired. We see her even in Doublemeat Palace her having to run out of work, the only reason she gets to stay is because their previous employees have went missing so they’re just trying to keep hold of people. We see again in S7 when she actually does have a good job she’s still having to keep calling in sick, falling asleep through exhaustion at her desk etc and she only keeps that job because Robin wants to get to know the slayer and then when he has his grudge in a grip he fires her
All really good points and I see what you mean. But Buffy cannot simply be the slayer, or there'd be no Buffy and I think Giles realises that. I think it's possible for her to find a job that suits her lifestyle, which isn't fighting or doesn't involve fighting. So no teaching judo or being a door-woman or policewoman etc. the usual stuff people come up with. She needs a job that isn't about 'slaying', that is for the Buffy part of her. If she made it through school she can find a job that would suit her, or be self employed.
 

Dora

Scooby
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I also disliked how they portrayed Giles in early season 6.

One, it doesn't strike me as true of his character as shown up to that point.

Two, it makes no sense given how Buffy was the one to get him his job back and face down the Council when he couldn't while also dealing with funerals, a distraught teen, and hell goddesses, so saying she needs to grow up is BS to me anyway as she proved herself far more capable, determined, and adult in season 5 than a great many adults in the real world...even before taking into account the extreme trauma she'd endured and was recovering from (which Giles in earlier seasons would've recognized as such) along with seeing a real problem forming around Willow in season 6.

Cutting Buffy off right then is, to me, like taking someone with fractured bones in the middle of the lake and telling her chin up, swim to shore, can't be coddling her. Fine when she's healthy and trying to push herself to become better, but not when she was in pieces.




I'd be able to overlook it easier had the writers arranged for some emergency for Giles so that he had to leave, having faith in Buffy and the rest given what they've overcome (he's proud of them, not thinking they need to grow up), though still worried about her and Willow both. In this case he could call in but would be delayed, and very sorry to miss the wedding, but asking over the phone how things are Buffy (along with Willow and Xander) tell him it's fine (because they're defensive, ashamed, and also not wanting to add to his burdens).

He could finally learn the truth, maybe Anya even shows up to try to get him to wish something horrible on Xander, and he rushes back (preparing himself first, perhaps some occult items hard to get through customs slowing him down just a bit), so that it can continue as it does at the end of the season.
Joss Wheldon and co were trying to push Spike to the fore ,that could have not happened if Buffy and Giles had parted on good terms i.e. Giles goes' back to England to visit his sick mother , they would then have kept in touch by phone etc , it had to be complete , hence the destruction of Tony Heads character , doing thing we know Giles just would not do
 
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