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Question Season 4: Your views, before and now

Season 4: Your views, before and now

  • Still love it

    Votes: 15 29.4%
  • Still like it

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • Still dislike it

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • Still hate it

    Votes: 4 7.8%
  • Loved it, now like it

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Loved it, now dislike it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Loved it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Liked it, now love it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Liked it, now dislike it

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Liked it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Disliked it, now love it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Disliked it, now like it

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • Disliked it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hated it, now love it

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • Hated it, now like it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Hated it, now dislike it

    Votes: 2 3.9%

  • Total voters
    51

matt124

Potential
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Mar 30, 2017
Messages
109
Location
Sunnydale
How did you feel about Angel Season 4 when you first watched it and what is your view to it now today? Has your opinion changed over the years.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,207
Black Thorn
I changed my vote. I am undecided. There are parts I really like and parts I really dislike. I think I am neutral on it.
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,722
Age
24
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
Ooooh an Angel thread! Cool!

I voted for "still love it".

I love season 4. It's my third favorite Angel season. I already spoke at length about why I love this season here: Angel season four appreciation. But, to sum it up...as a whole, it's one of the best seasons of the Buffyverse. Like Buffy season 2, this season has a clear progression and story. It's exciting, fast paced, unexpected, with lots of fresh ideas, great character work happening to all the characters and original Big Bads like Jasmine and The Beast. It suffers from the plague of Jasdelia, so it's not as enjoyable as, say, Angel s1 and s2, but it has the best plot and it's almost a cinematic experience.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,868
Location
Canada
Sineya
I still dislike it. Cordelia gets smeared in the worst possible way here. But the concept of Jasmine was excellent. For someone who is an atheist, Joss has managed to generate a classic anti-Christ who has all the necessary qualities - will be attractive, will be seductive, will right longstanding wrongs but will remove freedom and consume people. Still, and it is becoming obvious in a way it hasn't before this series of questionnaires on the seasons, smearing a character tends to ruin the season and Joss' petulance about Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy put her in a position where she becomes evil and not like Cordelia at all. This season ran concurrently with Season 7 of Buffy, another one that took a nosedive in quality.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Hate it more with time.

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
6,416
Black Thorn
Still love it. It's up there with one of my favourite seasons of tv. It's trash with depth.
 
Carrie Hopewell
Carrie Hopewell
"Trash with depth" Lol. Best description of the season I ever read!

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,074
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Love it. Loved it. Epic and ambitious, complex and melodramatic. It deals with big themes such as destiny vs. self-determination, hard choices.
I'm not going to get into all the great stuff because that's a long list, suffice to say that the weakest episodes are the stand-alone ones and they are few; most of them play into the big looming apocalypse.

Again, its not perfect. Cordelia gets treated badly, CC's performance is weak as Jasdelia, Connor is somewhat repetitive, Jasmine's arc doesn't quite reach the moral ambiguity it was shooting for.
But the last episode 'Home' is an intriguing set-up for the next season.
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
7,485
Location
UK
After my recent re-watch I liked Season 4 more that I expected to. It has characters changing in ways that, although I disliked the changes, were actually interesting to watch. Fred/Gunn/Wesley triangle annoyed me, as did Connor/Cordy and Angel/Connor. I think the writers took more risks in this season then ever before, and I admire them for that.
 

MarlieTheSlayer

Bangel shipper
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
488
Location
Sunnydale
Black Thorn
Still love it! I think it will always be my favorite season :) This really sums up why:
Epic and ambitious, complex and melodramatic. It deals with big themes such as destiny vs. self-determination, hard choices.
I also like the tragic father son relationship between Angel and Connor.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Yay. A 'me-quote' means karma! :D

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
245
Age
32
Location
Germany
My view of season 4 didn't change much - Sure, it's now easier to watch since we know it's not our beloved Cordelia but nevertheless I do not like the season so much, sure there are a few good episodes too :)
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,407
Age
40
Location
London, UK
On my first watch this was actually my favourite season. But now its second only to S1 as my least favourite. Still has some great things, but overall a bit avenge IMO.
 

slayer730

Potential
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
182
Age
40
When I first saw this season it was around the time Faith arc crossover and really liked that aspect of it. I then went back to watch it in order from beginning to end and thought it was ok, and then re watched it again but in the context of the re watching the whole series and ended up disliking a lot of the choices they ended up making because they changed the show so drastically and not necessarily for the better. The main ones that stick out are


No direction for the plot

When the season first started out it was actually pretty decent up until Spin the Bottle. After that they delivered a dramatic apocalyptic event that felt way too soon in the season, and started throwing random things at the wall to see what stuck and keep momentum going. The Beast came, and then they brought Angelus in, revealed that Cordelia was seemingly evil and pulling all these strings which supposedly was all for Jasmine who was doing all of these elaborate things as a “distraction”. They tied it together in a way that didn’t really contradict much but it felt like a huge reach.

Too many plot based episodes

This might sound like a weird criticism but this season was way too heavy on plot episode heavy and needed a balance. Seasons of Buffy and Angel up until that point were mostly structured in a way that had episodes alternate between the season arc and filler/motw episodes and filler to break up the pace and deliver the story. This season just had stretches of episodes that you never feel like gave you much of a break and it didn’t help that the story felt so convoluted

Cordelia

GOODNESS the way this character was handled was a mess. A lot of people hated how Cordelia lost her sass in season 3, but it’s nothing compared to what happened here. Whether Charisma got pregnant or not, I still don’t see how making her evil made much sense for motivations other than to deliver plot twists and shock moments. Sleeping with Connor, killing Lilah, kissing the Beast on the lips it’s all a mess.

Connor

While Connor was certainly justified in his feelings, that didn’t make him any less annoying. I’m not sure what they could or should have done with him, but he just wasn’t very enjoyable to watch.


There’s a lot more that can be said, but because so much overlaps in this season I think those 4 points are the main things that if changed would make it much better
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
still hate it. i just don't get it, i don't want to get it. it had it's moments ofc but overall for me everything that happened there was like a bad dream. s4 of angel for me like s6 of buffy. i wish it didn't exist
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
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Mar 14, 2014
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4,120
Age
32
Location
CA
Sineya
Well I remember liking Angel season 4 when it first aired, but I also didn't watch the whole season. I've only seen it twice all the way through. I like about half of the episodes, there are some really good eps in season 4. I just don't like the Jasmin story arc. So I think I liked it a lot, and now I just kind of like it.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,043
Location
Texas
Black Thorn
Oh man I am glad this thread got a bump. I voted "liked it" now I "love it."

Same as @Carrie Hopewell s4 is my third favorite season of Angel but only because s2 of AtS is a masterpiece and s1 of Angel is nostalgic and some really great stand out episodes. I think in terms of a through line, s4 does what BtVS s7 tried to do but so much better. It's hard not to compare the two. Both shows became so incredibly episodic. None of the shows were MOTW and they all were building up to a great big "thing" at the end. But AtS did such a great job of keeping everyone in character throughout the process and didn't let the big "thing" of the season ruin character arcs and developments (or if the character was OOC it was for a very purposeful reason - Cordy was not Cordy for example). When I first watched s4 I think I was a bit on the fence about it because it was basically blowing up so many things that I liked from the early seasons. It was effectively destroying Gunn/Fred, Gunn & Wesley, Connor and Angel's relationship was strained, I'm 100% on board with them blowing up Cangel but I was bummed that they were also destroying their friendship so I was a bit on the fence about it. But when I go back to watch it, I realize that all of that destruction was interesting to watch and productive. Gunn/Fred were getting boring (I enjoy them don't get me wrong but there wasn't much for them to do with them), Gunn and Wesley's dust up was interesting to watch because you care about their friendship so much it hurts to see them at odds, Connor and Angel's conflict continuing to escalate was interesting to watch EVEN if it means that Angel is put through the ringer. I could've done without the destruction of Cordelia and Angel's friendship in season 4 but if you ask me you can blame season 3 and Greenwalt for this. Season 4 was doing what it could to clean up the giant pile of crap from the Cangel romance and it does that pretty well. It basically gives you a means of retconning most of the cangel stuff in Skip's little speech. Season 4 makes "Tomorrow" tolerable because, IMO, "Tomorrow" is the greatest embarrassment in the Buffyverse. And so having Skip explain some of it helps me come to terms with the weirdness of that finale.

Mostly, I'm glad that season 4 gives me Angel back. Angel, you know - the quiet, broody, dark, edgy, sometimes slightly dorky but with a dark sense of humor, vampire we all know and love. After seeing Angel turn into a giggly doofus in s3, I appreciated having him back in s4. I could've done without the 'Cordelia births Jasmine' thing but I did appreciate Jasmine herself and that element of moral ambiguity worked well for me.

I am an AtS s4 apologist. I have grown to love it and find it an especially soothing balm after the ats s3 ridiculousness.
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
Better than I could ever express it so I'm going to piggy back on this.
thetopher
thetopher
Angel S4 is so great and we get proper Angel back.
badsister
badsister
i have to agree with the points you make but smh i still hate this season... after s2 it is so hard to watch something like that((

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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Age
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Location
London, UK
Oh man I am glad this thread got a bump. I voted "liked it" now I "love it."

Same as @Carrie Hopewell s4 is my third favorite season of Angel but only because s2 of AtS is a masterpiece and s1 of Angel is nostalgic and some really great stand out episodes. I think in terms of a through line, s4 does what BtVS s7 tried to do but so much better. It's hard not to compare the two. Both shows became so incredibly episodic. None of the shows were MOTW and they all were building up to a great big "thing" at the end. But AtS did such a great job of keeping everyone in character throughout the process and didn't let the big "thing" of the season ruin character arcs and developments (or if the character was OOC it was for a very purposeful reason - Cordy was not Cordy for example). When I first watched s4 I think I was a bit on the fence about it because it was basically blowing up so many things that I liked from the early seasons. It was effectively destroying Gunn/Fred, Gunn & Wesley, Connor and Angel's relationship was strained, I'm 100% on board with them blowing up Cangel but I was bummed that they were also destroying their friendship so I was a bit on the fence about it. But when I go back to watch it, I realize that all of that destruction was interesting to watch and productive. Gunn/Fred were getting boring (I enjoy them don't get me wrong but there wasn't much for them to do with them), Gunn and Wesley's dust up was interesting to watch because you care about their friendship so much it hurts to see them at odds, Connor and Angel's conflict continuing to escalate was interesting to watch EVEN if it means that Angel is put through the ringer. I could've done without the destruction of Cordelia and Angel's friendship in season 4 but if you ask me you can blame season 3 and Greenwalt for this. Season 4 was doing what it could to clean up the giant pile of crap from the Cangel romance and it does that pretty well. It basically gives you a means of retconning most of the cangel stuff in Skip's little speech. Season 4 makes "Tomorrow" tolerable because, IMO, "Tomorrow" is the greatest embarrassment in the Buffyverse. And so having Skip explain some of it helps me come to terms with the weirdness of that finale.

Mostly, I'm glad that season 4 gives me Angel back. Angel, you know - the quiet, broody, dark, edgy, sometimes slightly dorky but with a dark sense of humor, vampire we all know and love. After seeing Angel turn into a giggly doofus in s3, I appreciated having him back in s4. I could've done without the 'Cordelia births Jasmine' thing but I did appreciate Jasmine herself and that element of moral ambiguity worked well for me.

But there's only 5 seasons!.... Which makes it one of your least favourite;)

I am an AtS s4 apologist. I have grown to love it and find it an especially soothing balm after the ats s3 ridiculousness.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Apart from like, the other two season, so its actually firmly in the middle. :)
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