i don't mind her as villain that muchCordelia are really hard to watch.
it's not the fact of her being a villain as such, but the way it is executed.i don't mind her as villain that much
actually knowing it the second time around im watching her closely and man she played everyone real good there.
I really don't see how Wesley is supposed to come out of s4 "looking good." I love Wesley and his character and his arc and his growth etc but there is some serious darkness in that man and he struggles a great deal with it in season 4. I hardly think he comes out looking like a champion. He does not play a major role in bringing down Jasmine (that is more Fred, Connor, Angel).My main criticism of this season is the same one a lot of people lay on S7 of BtVS, when they say that Spike was pushed to the front and all the other characters were sacrificed to make him look good.
S4 is like Wesley the Show. Angel's character is vague and impotent.
I will agree that I'm not a big fan of Fred in regards to the love triangle in place but away from the romance angle, Fred really comes into her own in this season. She is pivotal to discovering Jasmine with literally none of her friends on her side. Magic Bullet might be my favorite Fred episode ever. When she says "I'm not a champion, like you" and Angel says "Everything I see says otherwise." I always cheer because Fred is so brave and she doesn't even realize how amazing she is.Fred is reduced to Wesley's object of affection.
You clearly haven't read any of my other posts about WesleyI really don't see how Wesley is supposed to come out of s4 "looking good." I love Wesley and his character and his arc and his growth etc but there is some serious darkness in that man and he struggles a great deal with it in season 4. I hardly think he comes out looking like a champion. He does not play a major role in bringing down Jasmine (that is more Fred, Connor, Angel).
Angel's dream in the first episode is a good setup, but it just doesn't go anywhere. Angel spends most of the season wondering about whether Cordelia loves him or what he can do to make Connor accept him as his father, but he is never able to get anywhere. Cordelia is gone, Cordelia comes back, Cordelia has lost her memory, Cordelia gets her memory back but refuses to speak to Angel, Cordelia sleeps with Connor... Angel feels like a silent spectator. What does he really achieve this season?When he first returns in season 4 his relationship with Connor and Wesley are at the forefront of the show. Throughout the season the Connor&Angel and Wesley&Angel relationships (the fall out and the mending of relationships) are thoroughly explored throughout the season (contrast this with Buffy&Xander or Buffy&Willow or Buffy&Dawn which are given far less attention than Buffy&Spike). Cordy and Angel's relationship is similarly explored. Angel is still at the center of all of this. Not just that but we get some time with Angelus and then Angel gets to confront his own demon. We get back story on Angel and his history.
But do we learn anything about Angel during this confrontation? Angel is good. Angelus is very evil. There is so little nuance overlap between the two. I guess there is some stuff about how shame and self-loathing postponed Angel's development into a good guy, but we know all of this already.I just could not disagree more - this season such a clear exploration of Angel's character through various lenses. And it wasn't vague, it was in fact rather heavy handed in places (see Angelus/Angel fight).
Of all of the people in all of the known world I have the least investment in Cangel - I assure you. And yet I can still appreciate how the resolution of that relationship was in large part about Angel and letting go of this idealized notion of The Perfect Family™.I have no investment in Cangel
Wait, that relationship was resolved? I didn't really see that until S5, but maybe I'm forgetting something. And I didn't feel like Angel gave up on the idealized notion of the perfect family, he just decided it wasn't possible *for him*, which was just the sadness cherry on top of the pain sundae.Of all of the people in all of the known world I have the least investment in Cangel - I assure you. And yet I can still appreciate how the resolution of that relationship was in large part about Angel and letting go of this idealized notion of The Perfect Family™.
From my perspective the Cordy/Angel relationship was finished in s4. She tells Angel that she loves him but can’t forgive the things he did as Angelus and then Angel sees her have sex with his son. Sure, these were not Cordy it was something possessing her but I find it hard to believe that Angel can get passed the Connor relationship. Add to that Skip tells the team that they have been manipulated by Jasmine for some time. And Angel’s resolve to kill Jasdelia.Wait, that relationship was resolved? I didn't really see that until S5, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
But, and I may be mis-reading you on this, Angel wipes it out not because of his pain (or the things that hurt him) but because of Connor’s pain. Angel can live with pain. He lived in hell for a hundred years and at the bottom of the ocean starving and hallucinating for months. What he can’t live with is the people he loves being tortured. So guess I’m not on board with theory that s4 was about “everything sucked for me so I’m going to wipe it.” Especially since he retains the memories. If I misunderstood you here, I apologize in advance!I did feel like Angel was a spectator (and/or the muscle) for a lot of the season, carried along by events that hurt him. And then in the end, he chose to wipe it all out.
Yeah, definitely did not mean that Angel wiped the memories because of his own pain, just that a lot of what happened in S4 was effectively wiped out for a long time because Connor and Wesley no longer remembered it. So to me, Angel went through the season without much, if any, change. He basically learned yet again, "I can't have nice things." And the idea that he would sacrifice his relationship with Connor so that Connor could be happy is again not new. That was the foundational premise of AtS to begin with, with Angel leaving Buffy to hopefully allow her a better life. So even though I love Home, I feel frustrated by the entire season when I step back and look at it. It's like Buffy Season 6, where we go through a ton of pain, and the ending is that Buffy learns the same lesson that she did in Season 5: Dawn/her humanity is really important.But, and I may be mis-reading you on this, Angel wipes it out not because of his pain (or the things that hurt him) but because of Connor’s pain. Angel can live with pain. He lived in hell for a hundred years and at the bottom of the ocean starving and hallucinating for months. What he can’t live with is the people he loves being tortured. So guess I’m not on board with theory that s4 was about “everything sucked for me so I’m going to wipe it.” Especially since he retains the memories. If I misunderstood you here, I apologize in advance!
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.YW doesn’t resolve anything to do with Cordy/Angel. It reflects fondly on what could have been but what never happened. It’s an epilogue.
We probably won’t agree on this either way which is fine but I’m curious, how do you think YW resolved the C/A relationship?I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.![]()
Because I don't think Angel had really made peace with it by the end of Season 4 as you do. I think he'd given up, but I don't think he really deals with it until he's able to actually talk to her. To me, it's no coincidence that he starts dating Nina very soon after that. He had unresolved stuff that he needed to make peace with before he could move on.We probably won’t agree on this either way which is fine but I’m curious, how do you think YW resolved the C/A relationship?
No, no, no!It's like Buffy Season 6, where we go through a ton of pain, and the ending is that Buffy learns the same lesson that she did in Season 5: Dawn/her humanity is really important.![]()
I was going to ask where you got that from but then remembered that he did Darla's ultrasound scan and determined the sex of the baby - lol!midwife,