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Question Season 4: Your views, before and now

Season 4: Your views, before and now

  • Still love it

    Votes: 15 29.4%
  • Still like it

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • Still dislike it

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • Still hate it

    Votes: 4 7.8%
  • Loved it, now like it

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Loved it, now dislike it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Loved it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Liked it, now love it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Liked it, now dislike it

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Liked it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Disliked it, now love it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Disliked it, now like it

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • Disliked it, now hate it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hated it, now love it

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • Hated it, now like it

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Hated it, now dislike it

    Votes: 2 3.9%

  • Total voters
    51

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
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East of Trouble
Without the Cordelia gives birth to Jasmine after sleeping with the Angel Spawn while he watched, I think the season would actually been the best of their seasons because of the moral complexities. Instead, my primary memory of that season is wanting to vomit -- and it has made me like Angel the series less and less with passing years as the pleasant memories have faded to a soft haze and that bitter memory is like a blood stain in concrete you can never get rid of. It singularly transformed from a fan of Angel -- and of most things Joss Whedon into someone who is at best a casual watcher.
 

DagonSphere

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Feb 24, 2018
Messages
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I loved season four when I first watched it, the pacing is insane, one crazy cliffhanger at the next, some really cool big ideas (the beast, the rain of fire, blotting out the sun), fantastically designed demons (the beast or Dinza), the entire scope of the season is just so much bigger. Gina Torres is making a brilliant villain. The only thing that was handled badly was the Cordelia/Connor story arc and the premature killing of Lilah, just when her relationship to Wesley was fleshing her out more and making her more interesting as a character. Though I must also say that the reboot of the end of season was also much needed to start over fresh.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Messages
7,483
Location
UK
There is so much to dislike in this season for me, I really don't like Cordy/Connor (who does), Dark Wesley does nothing for me and the Fred/Grunn breakup is just annoying. But I'm on a re-watch now and I am really enjoying it. There are some great action sequences, it has the best opening episode, and I really enjoy The Beast. I'm also a fan of 'Were we in love?'/'We were' exchange from. There are some cracking episodes and it really does feel like this is the end times. I've not got to the appearance of Jasmine yet, but I think I'm going to like her.
 
Antho
Antho
I really need an Angel rewatch

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
883
Location
East of Trouble
Season 4 is the most imaginative, exciting season, but pulling Fred And Gunn apart artificially so Wes could have his option pisses me off more with passing time. That and Cordy and Connor ruined season 4 and the Angel series for me.

Why try to force Fred into a relationship with toxic Wesley when Gunn made her HAPPY? It made me wonder if it was not a racist writing choice. Not to mention sexist - Fred was treated like a PRIZE for the boys, not a woman with agency. And Fred And Wes never actually "happened". Pointless!
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
7,483
Location
UK
Totally forgotten Fred and Angel kiss. I cannot imagine what the writers were thinking. They'd spent multiple episodes over several seasons building up Fred/Wesley, then as if testing the audiences reactions, they have Angel and Fred kissing. Just a bizarre decision.

Why does Angelus kill The Beast, when he knew that would bring the sun back. Surely, no matter what else was an issue, it was better that the sun was blotted out? That really made no sense.
 

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
883
Location
East of Trouble
Totally forgotten Fred and Angel kiss. I cannot imagine what the writers were thinking. They'd spent multiple episodes over several seasons building up Fred/Wesley, then as if testing the audiences reactions, they have Angel and Fred kissing. Just a bizarre decision.

Why does Angelus kill The Beast, when he knew that would bring the sun back. Surely, no matter what else was an issue, it was better that the sun was blotted out? That really made no sense.
Angelus is not a team player. The beast is not gonna act in his interest and he is not interested in supporting the beast's agenda. Light is something he has worked around for centuries.
 

Kratos

Scooby
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
651
Location
Republic of Ireland
Voted “loved it, now like it.”

It was way more enjoyable on my first watch in 2009, maybe because I watched AtS seasons out of order at that time and was a big fan of plot-focused shows such as Lost and 24 whereas now I prefer a balance of serialization and standalone episodes. Upon my recent rewatch, it’s become the weakest Angel season imo. Would’ve held up better if it wasn’t for the Cordy/Connor stuff, Skip’s speech in Inside Out and the Jasmine arc getting dragged out.
 

Faded90

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Apr 2, 2020
Messages
239
Age
62
I hated it but I did hate S3 more. At least in S4 people feel in character (other than Cordy obviously)

it’s very messy and it feels a bit ‘let’s just chuck everything at it and hope something sticks’. Faith is always good value but the reasons for bringing Angelus back were very flimsy plus he didn’t even feel like Angelus. Angelus doing the crazy celeb vampire act was bizarre and bore no resemblance to the sinister calculated S2 Angelus or even Eternity or fake Angelus in Enemies

I’ve actually always rven found Willow’s appearance really odd because there’s little continuitywith s7. In s7 we have a depressed withdrawn Willow whose petrified of doing magic in case she goes dark again and has genuine guilt about going dark then she comes into Orpheus and she’s cracking jokes about going evil, bantering all over the place and using powerful magic without a problem

I actually don’t find S4 Cordy totally character ruining mostly because it’s established it’s not actually Cordy so I can kind of just accept that Cordy isn’t in this season. S3 is far more character ruining for her where her characteristics are basically removed and then we are told that she is basically a literal saint and it’s kind of ‘erm what?’. S4 was always going to be rough for her character and I think they’d really wrote her into a corner with Tomorrow. There is an issue with evil Cordy in that while she doesn’t resemble real Cordy she actually doesn’t resemble Jasmine either. Why was Angelus important? The way they just kind of go ‘surprise it’s all just been a crazy distraction!’is very odd

also that Cangel sex scene in Awakening is possible the least sexy sex scene I’ve ever seen
 
Last edited:

Myheadsgonenumb

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I voted 'disliked it now like it' - I think, I've just read three pages of comments so I'm not 100% on what I voted about half an hour ago. But 'disliked it now meh' would have been a better fit. I have a grudging respect for season 4. I've rewritten all the seasons of Angel so that Doyle lives throughout and rewriting them has given me a whole new perspective on the show and how each season fits together and, looking back on the whole experience, I remember season 4 as one of the easiest to rewrite - so I have to give it points for that.

Season 1 is pretty much entirely motw episodes, yes Wolfram and Hart is in the background, but their wacky schemes are different every episode - there isn't really a story line beyond 'set up'. But it is fun in its simplicity (with a few howlers).
Season 2 has a compelling story line ... but not enough story line to keep gong an entire season. The beige phase - whilst presumably masquerading as story arc because Angel is separated from the group - actually includes some of the weakest motw episodes there are. The story arc finishes completely in episode 16 and then it has two motw eps and the Pylea arc. There's actually only 7 story arc episodes in the whole season, what we get is very intense - but over 22 episodes also really sparse.
Season 3 is split into 3 really distinct phases: motws before Darla shows up, pre kidnap and post kidnap. The motw are good enough, but they are what they are and then post kidnap is just a bit ... boring. Add in the motws inside the two distinct story arc phases and - there's not a whole lot of good meat in there. A lot of the padding is really good, but that is dragged down by some of the story arc being not that compelling. There's an over reliance on love triangles to create added drama. And then Cordelia ascends to a higher plane of existence and the less said on that, the better.
Season 5 was the season that surprised me the most in the rewrites as having the least story to get your teeth into. It's a season of great one off episodes but again there isn't much of a throughline beyond 'we work for Wolfram and Hart now'. In a way it was very like season one but without the simplicity and freshness. s5 is the series my opinion changed on for the worse once I'd really studied it (although burn out may have been a factor by that point).

But season 4 ... season 4 is all story line (and I say that as a good thing despite enjoying stand alone episodes as a general rule). It has a place it is going and it is getting there, it has something it wants to say and it's going to say it. I don't think they knew exactly what they were doing all the way through, and some of the twists are convoluted and even down right silly, but at the end they do have a cohesive whole that makes a sort of sense. They keep raising the stakes and even though the last few episodes are completely different in tone and feel to the rest of the season (as also happens in s2) they are still linked to what came before (unlike in s2) and that contrast in tone is purposeful. Season 4 has scale and ambition that none of the other seasons of Angel can match and I admire that about it. I found it much easier and far more enjoyable to rewrite s4 than I did s5.
But my respect is only grudging, because whilst I appreciate the scale of the story ... I don't actually like the story. I don't mind the idea of Jasmine and the ideas they explore about free will and I am willing to accept without too much question that everything that comes before is what is necessary to bring her into the world. Fine. Why not? But I don't like the love triangles, I hate everything about Cordelia - her cheesy bits up on the higher planes, her amnesia and then her possession and her dressing like a pregnant dominatrix. I do feel for Connor, I am a Connor apologist, but he is a sucking black hole on the screen (which is nothing against Vincent Kartheiser - I love Connor's Mandy/ Jasmine duet with Angel and I really like him in s5). I'm not as icked out by Connor and Cordy as most people - but I am icked out by the cheesy ass terrible dialogue she uses to seduce him: 'Your whole life you've never had anything real, I just want you to have something real.' Oh just bang him already. I am icked out by Cordelia and the beast though - and I don't like her cheesy villain lines. Angelus is a bit of a let down - such a pale shadow of what he was in Buffy s2, Faith is supposed to be dying but then somehow just survives and is fine, and then it turns out Skip is evil and he retcons the entire show to have all been part of this insanely convoluted plot all along.

So yeah - for me season 4 succeeds as being an epic tale, it just doesn't succeed as being a particularly good or well written epic tale. I don't feel any particular need to sit down and watch all 22 hours of it ever again - and because it is so serialised there aren't really any episodes I would pull from s4 and watch as a one off out of order - which s2 and s5 are full of.
 

Faded90

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One thing I’m always intrigued by is what is the timespan of s4? Obviously most seasons time span is a year but if you look episode by episode for s4 it must only be about a month
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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Yes - laid end to end it takes up all of about three weeks, but obviously it is supposed to last the year - because we are given a time frame for how long Angel is in the ocean (the length of the hiatus) and then Faith and Willow appear in both shows, where Buffy is clearly heading into the spring. Oh and then Angel is given the amulet and pops on over to SunnyD after taking over Wolfram and Hart - so that must be May.

I think we're just not meant to ask ... it feels interminable enough to believably be an eternity a year
 

Btvs fan

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Overall S4 is a mixed bag.
The Faith arc sums it for me. In those scenes Faith is epic but equally the Angelus scenes in those same episodes are terrible.
I don't care as much as others about Cordy/Connor but its still not great.
I find the whole Jasmine arc boring.
The Beast is fun but looks a bit unintentionally hilarious with those hooves which are basically just high heels 👠 😆

Gunn is Great but given nothing to do amd Fred is unintentionally sanctimonious and I'm just waiting for her to die to become Illyria.

Best thing in the season is Dark Wesley and his relationship with Lilah
 
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