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Season 7 is underrated

Kratos

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I recently finished rewatching season 7 and think it’s underrated. One of the weaker seasons but it gets better with each watch imo. Only episode I didn’t care much for was Don’t Leave Me. The first half was better than the second, but still a pretty solid season. Lessons is one of the best season openers. It helps that I really like most of the Buffy/Spike scenes, even though I’m not a Spuffy fan, and I like Kennedy. Thought the First became a more interesting villain towards the end when it was working with Caleb.

The few things I didn’t like were:
1. Xander and Anya getting back together.
2. The Guardians being introduced out of nowhere.
3. Chosen not being a longer finale.
 
L
Lovetheearth
Totally agree on these above points.

Puppet

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Black Thorn
1. Xander and Anya getting back together.
They didn't get back together, though, they just spend one night of sex followed by a conversation about it being closure and them being finally willing to admit that they are over.

I agree with the other two :)
 
Kratos
Kratos
I forgot about that. Thanks.
L
Lovetheearth
Ah but - they had sex again and there was affection when Xander ruffled her hair as she slept and said 'That's my girl' when he found out she died to save Andrew.

AlphaFoxtrot

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The problem with season seven is that it's three seasons worth of ideas, but only 14 episodes worth of plots, and 10 of those episodes get crammed into the last five. Plots get set up, but never resolved, stories get conclusions, but were never introduced in the first place, and it suffers from the worst trope of 21st Century media; You have to read the tie-in comic book to figure out what's going on. Damn you Wachowskis! So yeah, much like Season 6, it suffers from Joss's lack of involvement, it suffers from every good writer working on their spec scripts for next pilot season, and it has very poor pacing, but there is a lot of good stuff. Except for the ending, where the Orcs are defeated by feminism and the power of friendship.
 

Kratos

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The problem with season seven is that it's three seasons worth of ideas, but only 14 episodes worth of plots, and 10 of those episodes get crammed into the last five. Plots get set up, but never resolved, stories get conclusions, but were never introduced in the first place, and it suffers from the worst trope of 21st Century media; You have to read the tie-in comic book to figure out what's going on. Damn you Wachowskis!
I agree with most of this. The last 5 episodes felt rushed for that reason, but I had no problem knowing what was going on, even though I’ve never read the comics.
 
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AlphaFoxtrot
AlphaFoxtrot
Buffy's Axe was first introduced in "Fray." It works just as well as some axe, I suppose.

BuffyBot22

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s7 definitely gets a bad wrap. And I think if there had been a s8, s7 wouldn't be so poorly received by the audience.
Like @AlphaFoxtrot said, it was too many ideas that were not followed through on and then rushed to the finale in the last 5 or so episodes. They shoulda just focused in on The First more.
I could honestly do without the potentials. I like the slayer being the only girl in the world. You can still center the season on Caleb and The First, I just don't feel like we needed the potentials to defeat it. Have Faith come back and maybe have Kennedy be the new slayer that would have been activated when Buffy died in s5. And for the love of God make her less annoying.
I could do without Spike's undeserved redemption and screen time.
But, seriously it could have been one of those meh okay seasons (kind of how people view s4) if it had been followed by an amazing s8.
Since it was the last season, I expected better. They knew it was ending, unlike Angel s5. They coulda made this season as good as s2, s3, or s5 (best seasons IMO).
 
K
katmobile
You were doing so well until you dissed Spike.

white avenger

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The finale should have been either 2 hours or a 2 night arc, beginning on Buffy and ending the next night on Angel, being the Series finale for the former and the Season finale for the latter (that being, of course, impossible since the shows were on different networks) and should have, obviously, included both the regular casts of both shows and any recurring characters from both shows (of course,doing that and giving all the associated characters at least a minor screen time would probably have resulted in a 2 hour finale on BOTH shows, but I would have been willing to sit through 4 hours of Buffyverse action)

Somewhat off topic, but Angel's finale the next year should have also been at least 2 hours, and should have included at least several characters from Buffy's series (Willow and Xander, for instance) and maybe even a squad of local Slayers, who it would nave been revealed, would have been assigned to the LA area since Dana had been picked up (they actually were there, as was revealed in the "After The Fall" arc in IDE's comic book series)
 

burrunjor

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Season 7 is certainly a mixed bag.

Overall I think it is vastly better than 6, but not on a par with the first 5 of Buffy, or the first 3 and the last season of Angel. S4 of Angel and 6 of Buffy for me are the nadirs of both. Season 7 probably fits in with the second half of season 3 of Angel in that it's a bit sloppy, but still enjoyable.

Things I liked about 7.

1/ A return to a focus on fantasy and horror. S6 was as I've said more focused on romance and drama with the main characters. Now this has always been an element of Buffy yes, but there was also always a strong fantasy element. Both were what made Buffy special.

7 returns to that with a big, epic story line and new exciting monsters. The Turok Han, Caleb and The First are vastly superior to the Trio and Dark Willow. All are enemies Buffy doesn't have to hold back on, all expand the lore, are much better concepts, all push the Buffster to her absolute limits mentally and physically and all make a much bigger impact (destroying the Watchers council, driving Spike mad etc.)

The Gnarl is a classic example of horror being back at the forefrotn. The Gnarl is by far and away the most terrifying and effective one off villain in the entire series. To be honest I'd say he is scarier than any big bad. S6's monsters of the week apart from the Hellions were either bland growling monsters, or silly like Sweet and Teeth. Gnarl was a call back to Der Kindestod, The Gentlemen, IE when they put a lot of thought into the monsters of the week and didn't just view them as bland generic Demons.

2/ A run of absolutely sensational episodes from Conversations with Dead People to Potential. Conversations is both touching and spooky, the Uber Vamp two parter is one of the most tense stories in the entire series.

3/ Robin Wood was a cool character. He didn't get that much screentime, but I still liked DB Woodside's performance and Lies My Parents Told Me is a classic.

4/ Faith's return and her getting to meet Spike properly. (Shame their friendship didn't go anywhere, but they had brilliant chemistry. It's ironic that James and Eliza have also gone on to be absolute besties since at the conventions.)

5/ Seeing Spike redeem himself after the lows he had been taken to in the previous season. Buffy/Spike's pairing was also a lot better here in the way she cared for him, saved him from being tortured, believed in him, and the way he sacrificed himself to save her. It was a great way of ending that story, even for non Spuffy fans.

6/ Seeing Buffy back as a more proactive, feisty leader after her having been a broken woman the previous year.

7/ Chosen despite its faults did a good job of not only wrapping up the series, but doing so in a way that was true to the core themes of Buffy. Buffy has always been about a woman breaking free from the rules of a patriarchal system. Even in the Kuzui movie, she does things differently to the previous Slayers and as a result is able to kill Lothos who has always won in the past.

Chosen is the same as here Buffy breaks the rules of the Slayer line, that was set down by men who forced a young woman to do their fighting for them and ensures that no young woman will ever be forced to fight alone. Also by creating thousands of Slayers, and closing the hellmouth Buffy has made the world a better place like never before.

Things I didn't like.

1/ Too much focus on Spike.

2/ Despite some positive aspects of his relationship with Buffy and the resolution, Spike's character bugged me this season. I remember when it was first announced that he would be in love with Buffy I hated it because I thought, "they are just going to turn him into Angel Mark 2 and I prefer him as Spike!"

Sadly in this season my worst fears were realised and Spike becomes what Angel was in the first 3 seasons of Buffy in almost every way. Lets see brooding and moping, check. Going evil and Buffy not killing him and her friends getting pissed and trying to kill him behind her back, check. Becoming the distressed dude and getting captured and brutally tortured by the villain so Buffy can rescue him, check. Having a Holtz figure who wants to make him pay for his past sins, check. His entire character revolving around Buffy, check. Becoming her cheerleader when she is doubting herself, check.

All I can say is thank god for Angel season 5 which allowed Spike to go back to being the Spike we all love, a sarcastic, hilarious, rival to the main hero. I don't think he gets any good funny Spike lines in this series.

3/ Not nearly enough explained about the Firsts plan. Why didn't it just unleash the Turok Han army in the middle of the night and kill the Potentials in their sleep. Seriously? What was it waiting for to unleash its army?

If its army had been unleashed in say Bring on the Night and overrun Sunnydale, Buffy would have been ****ed?

4/ Kennedy. The loss of Tara is big, but even then why did they go out of their way to make her replacement Kennedy unlikable? Having her be made the head of the Slayer army just because she is sleeping with Willow, bully a young woman into suicide, and generally be an obnoxious asshole to Spike and Buffy, why did they think we would like her?

Even her relationship with Willow feels a bit inappropriate, so soon after Tara. To me this is one of the shows biggest failings. It feels it needs to have its characters be in a relationship. Angel also fell into this with Cordelia and Angel that I hated.

Kennedy is definitely not Tara's type. Oz, Willow, both quiet, reserved, empathetic, nice people. Where the hell did this cocky bully come from?

5/ Buffy being written appallingly out of character. Her mocking a suicide victim is the worst point for the entire character for me. Also I found her relationship with Faith to be badly written. Faith was completely reasonable.

Faith did NOT kick her out of the house. Faith simply said that she didn't want to take a bunch of barely trained girls to a house with a super powered psycho. She outright said that she didn't want to be a leader. In fact ironically Faith was the only one who DIDN'T want to kick Buffy out.

I get it that Buffy would have reason to be pissed at Faith, but come on here. Bigger picture, plus at this stage her house is filled with bigger murderers, Giles, Willow, Anya, Spike. It just makes Buffy look petty and jealous and like an unreasonable bitch, punching Faith when she dares to question her stupid decisions and then getting happy at the thought of Spike hitting her.

6/ The Turok Han being nerfed in the final, and the final battle being reduced to just a few minutes.

7/ The other Scoobies being either pushed to the side, or written out of character. Giles might have come off the worst, but really this season is when it became the Spike and Buffy show to a greater extent.

Overall not a terrible end to Buffy, but could have been better.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@burrunjor Definitely agree with much of what you put, though I disagree on Wood (the potential is there but he never quite reaches it) and Buffy activating the potentials has it' problems, not least the fact that the potentials at Buffy's house are supposedly the last remaining few yet there are still plenty in the world able to be activated who don't even look like they've endured attempted murder attempts from the bringers eg Baseball Girl.

Gnarl is the best monster in series and I think what makes him work so well is the setting. Willow (and thus the audience) are sealed in a cave with him whilst he slowly eats Willow's skin strip by strip, it's a very claustrophobic atmosphere. This was a classic Buffy monster and I think they should've used him to give Kennedy her comeuppance. Even if Kennedy doesn't die at Gnarl's hands, at least have the experience humble her eg she thinks she doesn't need to do the slayer training (eg she skived off going to the desert with Giles and the other potentials) buts finds herself out of her depth big time with Gnarl then realises that slayer training is not beneath her. Even if she did die, death by Gnarl would elicit some element of sympathy for her because of the manner of her death.....or it could've had the audience cheering Gnarl on and thanking him for getting rid of Kennedy whilst acknowledging that it was an unpleasant way to go.
 

Dora

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I know I have written this many times before , but I enjoyed the opening of S7 , never understood how Spike got into the cellar . there was some very good episodes Conversations with dead people one of my favourites , but from there in it went down hill , it became mostly about Spike a few episodes from the end of Buffy and what do we have , how Spike got turned, total pants , much better to had a longer build up to the final battle , and of course like S6 a man saved the world ...... Buffy is redundant
 

thrasherpix

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I think the only eps I'd ever watch again from that season would be Same Time, Same Place and Conversations with Dead People.

Though gods how I loved Buffy having to professionally counsel Dawn. :D
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Spike's return voyage from Witch-Bound Africa is one of the great untold stories of the Series.
 

Dora

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Spike's return voyage from Witch-Bound Africa is one of the great untold stories of the Series.
Getting to Africa was more amazing seeing as he cannot travel in daylight , he got to Africa faster then the ambulance got to Buffy , as for S7 generally I think it suffered as did S6 with little Joss involvement and the fact Sarah had loss something ? probably the way her and her character had been treated in S6
the trouble was what do you do with Spike, take out the sick relationship with Buffy in S6 and what did Spike have ? S7 spikes a nut job now , suddenly he isn't , by S7 Spike was to the fore, he was friends with Joss , Marti had a thing about him ,and he had a large fan girl base so he could not be killed off ,. so they pushed him to the fore even more and tried to make him interesting , with stories about him .Prior to this other characters had few episodes like Giles , becoming a demon or the chocolate bars or Xander with Zeppo or the twin thing interesting and funny story lines
Buffy for me worked better as the original core four , I am sure Spike could have been added in a character perhaps like Teal'C in stargate and I know most will not agree , pushing so much Spike as they did with so little story line to me I will not say ruined, but made Buffy a different program and in ways not enjoyable to watch and in my view brought forward the end of BTVS
 

burrunjor

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@burrunjor Definitely agree with much of what you put, though I disagree on Wood (the potential is there but he never quite reaches it) and Buffy activating the potentials has it' problems, not least the fact that the potentials at Buffy's house are supposedly the last remaining few yet there are still plenty in the world able to be activated who don't even look like they've endured attempted murder attempts from the bringers eg Baseball Girl.

Gnarl is the best monster in series and I think what makes him work so well is the setting. Willow (and thus the audience) are sealed in a cave with him whilst he slowly eats Willow's skin strip by strip, it's a very claustrophobic atmosphere. This was a classic Buffy monster and I think they should've used him to give Kennedy her comeuppance. Even if Kennedy doesn't die at Gnarl's hands, at least have the experience humble her eg she thinks she doesn't need to do the slayer training (eg she skived off going to the desert with Giles and the other potentials) buts finds herself out of her depth big time with Gnarl then realises that slayer training is not beneath her. Even if she did die, death by Gnarl would elicit some element of sympathy for her because of the manner of her death.....or it could've had the audience cheering Gnarl on and thanking him for getting rid of Kennedy whilst acknowledging that it was an unpleasant way to go.
LOL I hate Kennedy too, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to see a Gnarl eat her. Uber Vamp YES! A Gnarl is just too horrifying. :)

I do agree that Kennedy should have got humbled. I'm still a little puzzled about Kennedy's inclusion after all these years.

Kennedy is basically Wesley Crusher. She's that smart alec, annoying punk who comes in and tells the main characters they are useless, and so naturally we all want to see them get proven wrong, yet the writers for some reason always make them in the right because they think we'll like them for that reason?

Kennedy is arguably even worse as annoying as he is, Wesley at least is a genius, where as Kennedy isn't a particularly great fighter. Sure she is a bit feisty, but it's not like she got to the top because she's the best. Amanda is the only one to take out a Vamp on her own, she skips out on a lot of training (is she even there when Spike is training them in the graveyard as well?) It was just because she was shagging Willow.

Having her get humbled in a fight and feeling guilt over Chloe's death could have made her more sympathetic, but then we get her two mins later ripping on Spike for getting owned by the Demon.

I agree the final solution is a bit problematic in that Buffy has now dragged these young girls into a life of fighting monsters, and as we see in Angel the series not all of the girls are fit to have the power.

Still for what it was worth I think thematically at least it worked as an ending, and as well all know the world of Slayers has led to a lot of interesting possibilities for other writers.

I agree with the post that S7 was two seasons worth of ideas. They should have started it in S6, maybe had the First attack the Slayer line, and ended it with the Uber Vamps overrunning Sunnydale.

S7 could have been like the Wish with the Vampires in charge of Sunnydale, and Buffy having to battle them with the help of the potentials.

As it is the Ubervamp part is not only underdeveloped but doesn't make any sense.

Why does the First not just spring his army in Bring on The Night instead of one? Why if he has opened the seal does he not bring out more? Why does he never send the Bringers to try and open the seal in another episode? What was he waiting for? The potentials to all become actual Slayers? Spike to get the amulet?

It doesn't make any sense.
 

AstridDante

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Season 7 was good but not its strongest season. I loved Spike redemption arc and Spuffy relationship. I can see how ppl might not like this as it was definitely the forefront over other story points. I liked Caleb and thought he made a good villain. The First as a concept was a bit abstract. I hated the Potentials for the most part, there were too many of them and they took up too much time. I really didn't like how they were in Buffy's home and she was providing them with protection but they saw fit to treat her like crap and question her so much...looking at Kennedy and Rhona in particular. Hated the Kennedy and Willow romance. Just doesn't compare to Tillow or Oz and Willow. I didn't like the shoe-horning in of Angel in Chosen but can see why it was done to respect both sets of shippers
 

DeadlyDuo

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he got to Africa faster then the ambulance got to Buffy
That is either a glowing recommendation of the mode of transport Spike used, or a damning indictment of the Californian emergency response system. "A guy crossed an ocean and reached a different continent faster than an ambulance got to a shooting victim in the state of California."

Buffy for me worked better as the original core four , I am sure Spike could have been added in a character perhaps like Teal'C in stargate and I know most will not agree , pushing so much Spike as they did with so little story line to me I will not say ruined, but made Buffy a different program and in ways not enjoyable to watch and in my view brought forward the end of BTVS
I kind of disagree. I don't think the problem was necessarily how much screen time Spike got (though I would've been quite happy to cut the screen time if it mean we got more Spike and Dru together goodness) but how they used him. I wish they didn't give Spike a soul, I wish they didn't do the AR, and I wish the whole Spuffy relationship hadn't happened. They wasted Spike's character by making him Buffy's lap dog and the MUTUALLY unhealthy relationship in Season 6 was detrimental to both characters. Buffy is not without fault in the Spuffy relationship. She CHOSE to engage in it, just like she CHOSE to give Spike a blowjob when she was invisible. The talents of JM and SMG are literally the reason why Spike and Buffy retain any likeability after Season 6. Their characters brought out the worst in each other.

The audience fell in love with Spike's character in Season 2. It's why he wasn't killed off. There was no hint of Spuffy in Season 2 but the Spuffy storyline dragged Spike down and he even has a trope named after him. "Badass decay" used to be known as "Spikefication". The Harsh Light of Day/In the Dark is the last we truly get of evil/villain Spike.

LOL I hate Kennedy too, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to see a Gnarl eat her. Uber Vamp YES! A Gnarl is just too horrifying. :)
Which is why Gnarl would give Kennedy instant sympathy points.

I do agree that Kennedy should have got humbled. I'm still a little puzzled about Kennedy's inclusion after all these years.
The writers got so much flack over killing off Tara, and the "kill your gays" trope that they tried to rectify it by bringing in another lesbian character who was the complete opposite of Tara. It backfired because the fans hated Kennedy which is why in the comics they were swiftly split up.

Kennedy is basically Wesley Crusher. She's that smart alec, annoying punk who comes in and tells the main characters they are useless, and so naturally we all want to see them get proven wrong, yet the writers for some reason always make them in the right because they think we'll like them for that reason?

Kennedy is arguably even worse as annoying as he is, Wesley at least is a genius, where as Kennedy isn't a particularly great fighter. Sure she is a bit feisty, but it's not like she got to the top because she's the best. Amanda is the only one to take out a Vamp on her own, she skips out on a lot of training (is she even there when Spike is training them in the graveyard as well?) It was just because she was shagging Willow.
Nothing about Kennedy is likeable. She openly admits that she's a brat, and in some ways her admitting it makes it even worse because she acknowledges her behaviour is awful yet chooses not to rectify it rather than her being unaware of how bratty she is.

Kennedy is a bit of a "Writer's Pet" in that the writers were more into her character than the audience was. I find Clara Oswald was the same way in Doctor Who.

Two scenes that cement Kennedy's awfulness are the backyard training scene where she calls Chloe "Maggot" then gloats about it, and the Mutiny scene where Kennedy admits she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge. There is no way that Willow would ever go for someone like Kennedy when she is that nasty to people. Willow was a victim of bullying herself which is why she was so upset when she found out Xander was dating Cordelia, Kennedy is the same as pre-scooby Cordelia if not worse.

Aside from the backyard scene and the mutiny scene, you also have Kennedy inviting herself into Willow's bed which makes Willow uncomfortable, plus her telling Willow that she thinks magic is a bunch of "fairy tale crap" to Willow's face. It's one thing to not share your partner's hobby but respect it as something they enjoy, but to insult it is quite another. Also, it's worth baring in mind is that magic is what bought Tara and Willow together. Essentially Kennedy is telling Willow that her relationship with Tara only happened due to "fairy tale crap".

Having her get humbled in a fight and feeling guilt over Chloe's death could have made her more sympathetic, but then we get her two mins later ripping on Spike for getting owned by the Demon.
I honestly believe the first was telling the truth in that scene because why lie when the truth can be so much fun. The fact that Kennedy doesn't even question whether or not she was at fault (even if a character were to reassure her that she wasn't and that the First was probably lying) says that she does not give a damn about how her actions affect others. Kennedy is so self-centred that she will throw anybody under the bus so long as she gets what she wants.

I agree the final solution is a bit problematic in that Buffy has now dragged these young girls into a life of fighting monsters, and as we see in Angel the series not all of the girls are fit to have the power.
I also take issue with the wording "Are you ready to be strong?" as it implies that unless you're "special" aka a potential then you can't be strong. I know Xander gave his whole "you're not special, you're extraordinary" speech to Dawn, but when the writers are throwing around the words "special" and "strong" in regards to the potentials, it kind of becomes an insult to other female characters who aren't strong. When the series first started, it seemed like any girl could've been the slayer and Buffy was just the unlucky one chosen. It could've easily been Willow, Cordelia, Harmony, Amy etc. Come Season 7, that was never going to be an issue because none of them were "special" enough.

Kennedy gets to be "strong" despite being a self-entitled bitch because it just gets handed to her, she doesn't have to earn it. Tara, who escaped an abusive family and made a life for herself away from them, doesn't get to be "strong" because she's not "special" enough to be a potential and get given that title.

Still for what it was worth I think thematically at least it worked as an ending, and as well all know the world of Slayers has led to a lot of interesting possibilities for other writers.
In terms of Buffy's story, it works because it means she no longer has to shoulder the responsibility of being the slayer on her own. Outside of that however, it starts to fall apart.

I agree with the post that S7 was two seasons worth of ideas. They should have started it in S6, maybe had the First attack the Slayer line, and ended it with the Uber Vamps overrunning Sunnydale.
If the First had attacked Buffy in Season 6, Buffy would be dead. It's why I think the trio were the main villains during Season 6. Buffy was so depressed that anyone with more competence and an actual goal would've walked all over her. If Buffy had gotten her act together halfway through the season (making the trio "little bads") and then they delved into the First it could've worked. Also I think the First should've just been the first evil being rather than the personification of evil itself.

S7 could have been like the Wish with the Vampires in charge of Sunnydale, and Buffy having to battle them with the help of the potentials.
I think if they'd shown the actual demon community being victims of the ubervamps, it would've upped the stakes as it would've shown that nobody is safe. Even normal vampires are just meat to the ubervamps.

As it is the Ubervamp part is not only underdeveloped but doesn't make any sense.
What makes even less sense is the First helpfully having the scythe dug out for Buffy when it can't even use it and it is ultimately what led to the First's defeat and Buffy's victory.

Also the show seemed to change the nature of the hellmouth. It seemed to change from being a weak point between different dimensions to being a large cavern underground filled with ubervamps. Is the hellmouth supposedly in Cleveland just another cavern full of ubervamps?

Why does the First not just spring his army in Bring on The Night instead of one? Why if he has opened the seal does he not bring out more? Why does he never send the Bringers to try and open the seal in another episode? What was he waiting for? The potentials to all become actual Slayers? Spike to get the amulet?

It doesn't make any sense.
Why did the First invlve Spike in any way when it is what put Buffy onto its tail and it had no real use for Spike? If Pig's blood was going to work, why not just use that? If it wasn't going to work, why try and get Andrew to kill the pig? Why involve Andrew at all rather than using Caleb for all its bidding? Why didn't the Scoobies bulldoze the school, not only burying the seal under a ton of heavy rubble but also exposing any ubervvamps that did get out to sunlight? At the very least it would slow their emergence down especially if they had a couple of people stationed on top of the rubble to eliminate any that do manage to crawl out.

I liked Caleb and thought he made a good villain. The First as a concept was a bit abstract. I hated the Potentials for the most part, there were too many of them and they took up too much time. I really didn't like how they were in Buffy's home and she was providing them with protection but they saw fit to treat her like crap and question her so much...looking at Kennedy and Rhona in particular. Hated the Kennedy and Willow romance. Just doesn't compare to Tillow or Oz and Willow. I didn't like the shoe-horning in of Angel in Chosen but can see why it was done to respect both sets of shippers
Season 7 was a mess and has so many issues.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Getting to Africa was more amazing seeing as he cannot travel in daylight
Why can't he travel in daylight? You see Spike and Angel both travelling, via air, in daylight in the subsequent season. You can't assume vampire-friendly air transport is only available for a law firm.
 
Puppet
Puppet
To be fair, there were undoubtedly necrotempered glass in the W&H private jet.

Spanky

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@Puppet That's my point. It's unreasonable to think they are the only people in the world that has that technology. Airlines could make a killing servicing vampers.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
But at that point in time the Supernatural is kept hidden. W&H are involved in that area, general airlines aren't.
TriBel
TriBel
@DeadlyDuo - Spanky has a point. The Supernatural is hidden from the public. It doesn't mean Governments/Corporations don't know about them. It's not as though there isn't real world precedence for this. Especially when there's money to be made.

burrunjor

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That is either a glowing recommendation of the mode of transport Spike used, or a damning indictment of the Californian emergency response system. "A guy crossed an ocean and reached a different continent faster than an ambulance got to a shooting victim in the state of California."



I kind of disagree. I don't think the problem was necessarily how much screen time Spike got (though I would've been quite happy to cut the screen time if it mean we got more Spike and Dru together goodness) but how they used him. I wish they didn't give Spike a soul, I wish they didn't do the AR, and I wish the whole Spuffy relationship hadn't happened. They wasted Spike's character by making him Buffy's lap dog and the MUTUALLY unhealthy relationship in Season 6 was detrimental to both characters. Buffy is not without fault in the Spuffy relationship. She CHOSE to engage in it, just like she CHOSE to give Spike a blowjob when she was invisible. The talents of JM and SMG are literally the reason why Spike and Buffy retain any likeability after Season 6. Their characters brought out the worst in each other.

The audience fell in love with Spike's character in Season 2. It's why he wasn't killed off. There was no hint of Spuffy in Season 2 but the Spuffy storyline dragged Spike down and he even has a trope named after him. "Badass decay" used to be known as "Spikefication". The Harsh Light of Day/In the Dark is the last we truly get of evil/villain Spike.



Which is why Gnarl would give Kennedy instant sympathy points.



The writers got so much flack over killing off Tara, and the "kill your gays" trope that they tried to rectify it by bringing in another lesbian character who was the complete opposite of Tara. It backfired because the fans hated Kennedy which is why in the comics they were swiftly split up.



Nothing about Kennedy is likeable. She openly admits that she's a brat, and in some ways her admitting it makes it even worse because she acknowledges her behaviour is awful yet chooses not to rectify it rather than her being unaware of how bratty she is.

Kennedy is a bit of a "Writer's Pet" in that the writers were more into her character than the audience was. I find Clara Oswald was the same way in Doctor Who.

Two scenes that cement Kennedy's awfulness are the backyard training scene where she calls Chloe "Maggot" then gloats about it, and the Mutiny scene where Kennedy admits she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge. There is no way that Willow would ever go for someone like Kennedy when she is that nasty to people. Willow was a victim of bullying herself which is why she was so upset when she found out Xander was dating Cordelia, Kennedy is the same as pre-scooby Cordelia if not worse.

Aside from the backyard scene and the mutiny scene, you also have Kennedy inviting herself into Willow's bed which makes Willow uncomfortable, plus her telling Willow that she thinks magic is a bunch of "fairy tale crap" to Willow's face. It's one thing to not share your partner's hobby but respect it as something they enjoy, but to insult it is quite another. Also, it's worth baring in mind is that magic is what bought Tara and Willow together. Essentially Kennedy is telling Willow that her relationship with Tara only happened due to "fairy tale crap".



I honestly believe the first was telling the truth in that scene because why lie when the truth can be so much fun. The fact that Kennedy doesn't even question whether or not she was at fault (even if a character were to reassure her that she wasn't and that the First was probably lying) says that she does not give a damn about how her actions affect others. Kennedy is so self-centred that she will throw anybody under the bus so long as she gets what she wants.



I also take issue with the wording "Are you ready to be strong?" as it implies that unless you're "special" aka a potential then you can't be strong. I know Xander gave his whole "you're not special, you're extraordinary" speech to Dawn, but when the writers are throwing around the words "special" and "strong" in regards to the potentials, it kind of becomes an insult to other female characters who aren't strong. When the series first started, it seemed like any girl could've been the slayer and Buffy was just the unlucky one chosen. It could've easily been Willow, Cordelia, Harmony, Amy etc. Come Season 7, that was never going to be an issue because none of them were "special" enough.

Kennedy gets to be "strong" despite being a self-entitled bitch because it just gets handed to her, she doesn't have to earn it. Tara, who escaped an abusive family and made a life for herself away from them, doesn't get to be "strong" because she's not "special" enough to be a potential and get given that title.



In terms of Buffy's story, it works because it means she no longer has to shoulder the responsibility of being the slayer on her own. Outside of that however, it starts to fall apart.



If the First had attacked Buffy in Season 6, Buffy would be dead. It's why I think the trio were the main villains during Season 6. Buffy was so depressed that anyone with more competence and an actual goal would've walked all over her. If Buffy had gotten her act together halfway through the season (making the trio "little bads") and then they delved into the First it could've worked. Also I think the First should've just been the first evil being rather than the personification of evil itself.



I think if they'd shown the actual demon community being victims of the ubervamps, it would've upped the stakes as it would've shown that nobody is safe. Even normal vampires are just meat to the ubervamps.



What makes even less sense is the First helpfully having the scythe dug out for Buffy when it can't even use it and it is ultimately what led to the First's defeat and Buffy's victory.

Also the show seemed to change the nature of the hellmouth. It seemed to change from being a weak point between different dimensions to being a large cavern underground filled with ubervamps. Is the hellmouth supposedly in Cleveland just another cavern full of ubervamps?



Why did the First invlve Spike in any way when it is what put Buffy onto its tail and it had no real use for Spike? If Pig's blood was going to work, why not just use that? If it wasn't going to work, why try and get Andrew to kill the pig? Why involve Andrew at all rather than using Caleb for all its bidding? Why didn't the Scoobies bulldoze the school, not only burying the seal under a ton of heavy rubble but also exposing any ubervvamps that did get out to sunlight? At the very least it would slow their emergence down especially if they had a couple of people stationed on top of the rubble to eliminate any that do manage to crawl out.



Season 7 was a mess and has so many issues.
Excellent post. I agree with most of what you said.

As for how Spike got to Africa, I reckon Vamps have a special mode of transport. Whilst a lot of them are barbarians, there has to be some loose Vampire society of some kind. It's not quite like Being Human or Blade, but I'd imagine there is some kind of network, hence why Spike knew about the Annointed Guy and the Master dying.

I reckon Vamps have some vehicles made that can travel across seas. Might have been quite funny to see Spike on a boat full of Vamps who hate him, but I'd imagine he would probably just smack one and then intimidate the rest.

I agree with you and Dora that Spuffy was a mistake too. I dislike Spike falling in love with Buffy.

I think Spike s2-4 is a brilliant archenemy for Buffy. He hates her, his feud is personal and he can ruffle her feathers a lot more than any other badguy like in Harsh Light of Day, The Yoko Factor (same with Angel when he's torturing him in In The Dark) but he isn't the most powerful. He escapes because he is smart, and also he is a self server. He's not evil in a stupid way, he knows when to call it quits. He is also a good dark mirror for Buffy.

Both Buffy and Spike are short, blonde, young, sarcastic characters who are part of very ritualistic, patriarchal, stuffy orders. Vampire society as ruled by the Master is all about rituals "AS IT WAS WRITTEN SO SHALL IT BE." The Slayer line is similarly about stupid, tedious rituals and handbooks and traditions like the Cruciform. Buffy and Spike however both rebel against said traditions and do things their own way which makes them more effective, and allows them to live longer.

Kendra dies in her first year, as do most Slayers whilst Buffy keeps on going, Spike outlives all the other Big Bads who keep getting staked, sent to hell, blown up etc.

To me they should have kept that up in S5. I don't buy this they couldn't do anything else with Spike. Sorry to me they were quite lazy and just retread the same old Angel ground.

I can easily see the Spike of season 4, work with Buffy against Glory. He wouldn't want Glory to destroy the multiverse either. We could have had him become friends with Dawn just the same, or perhaps Willow and Tara,

They could have done other things like have Spike rally the Vampires against the First, the Uber Vamps etc and manipulate the situation for his own ends.

I've always said Crowley in Supernatural is more what Spike could have been. Crowley is much like Spike from S2-4 a self server, who defies the Demons traditions and has a more personal feud with the main heroes, but he is also fair and knows when to call it quits. Spike helping Buffy in S2 is exactly like Crowley helping the Winchesters in S5.

I'd have loved to have seen that revisited in Buffy S5 against Glory. To me going down the Vampire falling in love route was a terrible cliche and did culminate in Spike of s7 being just a mini Angel. Thankfully Angel s5 gave us the Spike we loved from Buffy s2-4 again.

All those points about Kennedy are spot on meanwhile. She's even more horrible than I realised thanks to your post LOL.

I agree that it's insane for her to be Willow's type. (I said as much in a previous post, but I just realised I made a typo and said Tara instead of Willow which must have looked confusing LOL.)

Oz and Tara are both nice, quiet, laid back characters. Where the hell does Kennedy come from? I'd say she is worse than pre Scooby Cordelia. Cordy was like 14, and mellowed out pretty quickly. She was more just blunt and insensitive in the first couple of seasons. (Apart from the first two parter. That's the only one where she seems like an out and out bitch.)

I think the bury your gays trope is bogus personally in regards to Tara. Joss always kills people suddenly. Jenny, Walsh from Firefly, Fred as I said gets it the worst. He shouldn't have given into pressure just to bring a lesbian romance into it, when he clearly didn't have a character in mind.

Also good point about Clara. She's another example of a Wesley Crusher type, an annoying smart alec who thinks they are right all the time, and is proven to be by the writer.

My ideal model for S6 would have been to have Buffy deal with the problems of the potentials right away, no Trio I'm afraid and NO Spuffy. I dislike the Trio, they are the only Big Bads I think are worthless.

You could have still had Willow go dark. Maybe the First corrupting her, and at the end of the season its army would be unleashed. S7 as you said could then show how these guys are a threat to everyone. I would love to have seen regular Vampires team up with Buffy, again kind of like Blade 2 against the super Vampires.

To me that would have been better. I also never got why the First needed Spike, and also why the First if it wanted to use him, didn't just approach Spike in S6 and offer to remove his chip. I'm sure it could have found a way to do that with its resources.
 

Lovetheearth

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3/ Not nearly enough explained about the Firsts plan. Why didn't it just unleash the Turok Han army in the middle of the night and kill the Potentials in their sleep. Seriously? What was it waiting for to unleash its army?

If its army had been unleashed in say Bring on the Night and overrun Sunnydale, Buffy would have been ****ed?

4/ Kennedy. The loss of Tara is big, but even then why did they go out of their way to make her replacement Kennedy unlikable? Having her be made the head of the Slayer army just because she is sleeping with Willow, bully a young woman into suicide, and generally be an obnoxious asshole to Spike and Buffy, why did they think we would like her?

Even her relationship with Willow feels a bit inappropriate, so soon after Tara. To me this is one of the shows biggest failings. It feels it needs to have its characters be in a relationship. Angel also fell into this with Cordelia and Angel that I hated.

Kennedy is definitely not Tara's type. Oz, Willow, both quiet, reserved, empathetic, nice people. Where the hell did this cocky bully come from?

5/ Buffy being written appallingly out of character. Her mocking a suicide victim is the worst point for the entire character for me.
I've been re-watching Buffy over lockdown, and currently on S7 so want to offer my thoughts to this thread.

With 3 - My interpretation is that what Buffy saw with the Turok-Han army was a vision/prophecy given to her by the men who created the first slayer. The First unleashed its one ubervamp in 'Bring on the Night' to unsettle, or even kill, her and was meanwhile creating the others (kind of Saruman / uruk-hai style). Or even, after Buffy killed the ubervamp, the First decided it needed more. The subsequent episode from this vision ('Storyteller') was when Buffy closed the seal with the help of Andrew, in the hope that this would stop this army from leaving.

4 - Kennedy is definitely unlikeable. With regards to it being soon after Tara: yes, it is soon, but that could be due to Willow's grief and wanting comfort and care from someone? I wondered if one reason Kennedy was so unlikeable is because there is still a hint of darkness in Willow. Perhaps she is more drawn to her than she would have been otherwise. Or, maybe she finds that Kennedy's cruelness balances her in some way, i.e. she doesn't feel 'as bad' a person. Or even, maybe she feels she doesn't deserve someone like Tara anymore after what she did.

5 - Buffy is much tougher in S7 than she has ever been. I really disliked her reaction to Chloe's suicide, particularly as I would argue she chose to commit suicide at the end of S5 after feeling 'done' with being a slayer. I'd say one tension in the whole series is her constant struggle between being a slayer and a teenage girl; she wants to be a normal teenage girl and perceives being a slayer as a job. This struggle seemed to grow throughout the seasons and in S5, she wants out. (Although, she does seem to get a new lease for life, as she even admits to Giles in S7 that if it was a choice between her and Dawn now, she would choose Dawn).

I think S7 was trying to build tension towards the overall big bad, much like S5 did. Buffy's 'General' or 'at-war' approach since the potentials started arriving had to build enough tension to have the right impact for the mutiny scene. She felt that she had to be a leader, dare I say a dictator, as she felt a democracy wouldn't win the fight. She felt she could not show compassion, that she had to create tough, mature and serious fighters to take on the First, and that it had to be taken seriously. She knew how tough the Turok-Han was and couldn't afford the potentials having any anxiety or complacency. Perhaps she had felt appropriately 'toughened up' through 6/7 years of difficult decisions and heartache, but obviously knew they didn't have 6 years ahead of them and needed a fast-track approach.

The audience fell in love with Spike's character in Season 2. It's why he wasn't killed off. There was no hint of Spuffy in Season 2 but the Spuffy storyline dragged Spike down and he even has a trope named after him. "Badass decay" used to be known as "Spikefication". The Harsh Light of Day/In the Dark is the last we truly get of evil/villain Spike.
As for Spike, I have also spent a bit of lockdown watching their ComicCon panels and other interviews, and in one, JM said that he always saw the relationship with Spike and Buffy as having sexual tension. That even in S2, he saw Spike as prowling after Buffy. Or at least, he saw vampires as having a lust for their victims. I've just tried looking for the video now, but I can't find it. Another video had JM saying that Joss told him to tone down the character in S2, that this was 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', not 'The Spike show'. And he said in an interview with The Observer that he didn't want Spike to be killed off, so had to secretly 'find the love'. Anyway, I just find these tidbits interesting. I do wonder how much JM wanted to keep himself in the show using these secret objectives vs how much the writers enjoyed writing his character and the subsequent audience reaction. If the latter, I can't see how they could have kept him without him joining the scoobies? I can totally see the argument that S7 storylines became about him at the expense of the other characters though.

EDIT

Just been thinking some more about Spike and in particular, in response to this article which I stumbled across when looking for the video I mentioned above. It's pretty scathing, and I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the argument. JM seems to go to most Comic Con events, far more so than SMG or other 'main' characters. I am completely speculating here, but perhaps by S7, he had more passion and energy for the show as an actor, making it easier and more fulfilling to write and direct Spike, hence the focus?
 
Reason: Additional thought
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