• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Season 7 is underrated

burrunjor

Potential
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
331
Age
29
I've been re-watching Buffy over lockdown, and currently on S7 so want to offer my thoughts to this thread.

With 3 - My interpretation is that what Buffy saw with the Turok-Han army was a vision/prophecy given to her by the men who created the first slayer. The First unleashed its one ubervamp in 'Bring on the Night' to unsettle, or even kill, her and was meanwhile creating the others (kind of Saruman / uruk-hai style). Or even, after Buffy killed the ubervamp, the First decided it needed more. The subsequent episode from this vision ('Storyteller') was when Buffy closed the seal with the help of Andrew, in the hope that this would stop this army from leaving.

4 - Kennedy is definitely unlikeable. With regards to it being soon after Tara: yes, it is soon, but that could be due to Willow's grief and wanting comfort and care from someone? I wondered if one reason Kennedy was so unlikeable is because there is still a hint of darkness in Willow. Perhaps she is more drawn to her than she would have been otherwise. Or, maybe she finds that Kennedy's cruelness balances her in some way, i.e. she doesn't feel 'as bad' a person. Or even, maybe she feels she doesn't deserve someone like Tara anymore after what she did.

5 - Buffy is much tougher in S7 than she has ever been. I really disliked her reaction to Chloe's suicide, particularly as I would argue she chose to commit suicide at the end of S5 after feeling 'done' with being a slayer. I'd say one tension in the whole series is her constant struggle between being a slayer and a teenage girl; she wants to be a normal teenage girl and perceives being a slayer as a job. This struggle seemed to grow throughout the seasons and in S5, she wants out. (Although, she does seem to get a new lease for life, as she even admits to Giles in S7 that if it was a choice between her and Dawn now, she would choose Dawn).

I think S7 was trying to build tension towards the overall big bad, much like S5 did. Buffy's 'General' or 'at-war' approach since the potentials started arriving had to build enough tension to have the right impact for the mutiny scene. She felt that she had to be a leader, dare I say a dictator, as she felt a democracy wouldn't win the fight. She felt she could not show compassion, that she had to create tough, mature and serious fighters to take on the First, and that it had to be taken seriously. She knew how tough the Turok-Han was and couldn't afford the potentials having any anxiety or complacency. Perhaps she had felt appropriately 'toughened up' through 6/7 years of difficult decisions and heartache, but obviously knew they didn't have 6 years ahead of them and needed a fast-track approach.



As for Spike, I have also spent a bit of lockdown watching their ComicCon panels and other interviews, and in one, JM said that he always saw the relationship with Spike and Buffy as having sexual tension. That even in S2, he saw Spike as prowling after Buffy. Or at least, he saw vampires as having a lust for their victims. I've just tried looking for the video now, but I can't find it. Another video had JM saying that Joss told him to tone down the character in S2, that this was 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', not 'The Spike show'. And he said in an interview with The Observer that he didn't want Spike to be killed off, so had to secretly 'find the love'. Anyway, I just find these tidbits interesting. I do wonder how much JM wanted to keep himself in the show using these secret objectives vs how much the writers enjoyed writing his character and the subsequent audience reaction. If the latter, I can't see how they could have kept him without him joining the scoobies? I can totally see the argument that S7 storylines became about him at the expense of the other characters though.

EDIT

Just been thinking some more about Spike and in particular, in response to this article which I stumbled across when looking for the video I mentioned above. It's pretty scathing, and I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the argument. JM seems to go to most Comic Con events, far more so than SMG or other 'main' characters. I am completely speculating here, but perhaps by S7, he had more passion and energy for the show as an actor, making it easier and more fulfilling to write and direct Spike, hence the focus?

Thanks for that comment. That's a fine explanation for the Turok Han army, and could explain why they were so weaker, maybe they needed time to get to their full strength, but sadly there is nothing to suggest that in the show itself. Joss and the other writers should have put that effort in. There is a bit about the Bringers creating weapons underneath Sunnydale which I thought could have been an interesting episode, but that went no where either.

I've read that article before. I think it makes some valid points about Spike eclipsing the rest of the show, but ultimately I think he goes too far with his describing Spike as a thuggish character destroying the show.

Ironically the only way they were able to keep Spike on the show was by making him NOT a thuggish, villainous character. They had to have him fall in love, reveal that he used to be big mommy's boy, sensitive, romantic poet underneath, have him go on big speechs about love, get a soul, etc.

That ironically was the problem with a lot of his fans, that they liked him better as the villain and didn't like seeing him become the Angel type of hero.

I personally think they could have kept Spike on as a Devil you know type of villain in Sunnydale, kind of like Crowley in Supernatural.

This article about both characters I think is quite good.


Spike basically was like an earlier Crowley in S2-4. He was a bit more romantic sure, but basically he is Crowley, a sarcastic, self server who doesn't want the end of the world to happen because he likes it, who is kind of an archenemy to the hero because he knows them so well, yet is also able to make deals with them and help them.

Sadly however they blew that brilliant characterisation and went down the usual romantic Vampire route. Personally I think it was a bit short sighted of Joss, as Crowley ironically ended up having a longer life than romantic Spike, whilst even Spike eventually had to revert back to his wacky Vampire neighbour persona for Angel.
 

Lovetheearth

Townie
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
7
Age
31
Thanks for that comment. That's a fine explanation for the Turok Han army, and could explain why they were so weaker, maybe they needed time to get to their full strength, but sadly there is nothing to suggest that in the show itself. Joss and the other writers should have put that effort in. There is a bit about the Bringers creating weapons underneath Sunnydale which I thought could have been an interesting episode, but that went no where either.
Yep, good point. It really was too many ideas packed into one season.

I've read that article before. I think it makes some valid points about Spike eclipsing the rest of the show, but ultimately I think he goes too far with his describing Spike as a thuggish character destroying the show.

Ironically the only way they were able to keep Spike on the show was by making him NOT a thuggish, villainous character. They had to have him fall in love, reveal that he used to be big mommy's boy, sensitive, romantic poet underneath, have him go on big speechs about love, get a soul, etc.

That ironically was the problem with a lot of his fans, that they liked him better as the villain and didn't like seeing him become the Angel type of hero.

I personally think they could have kept Spike on as a Devil you know type of villain in Sunnydale, kind of like Crowley in Supernatural.

This article about both characters I think is quite good.


Spike basically was like an earlier Crowley in S2-4. He was a bit more romantic sure, but basically he is Crowley, a sarcastic, self server who doesn't want the end of the world to happen because he likes it, who is kind of an archenemy to the hero because he knows them so well, yet is also able to make deals with them and help them.

Sadly however they blew that brilliant characterisation and went down the usual romantic Vampire route. Personally I think it was a bit short sighted of Joss, as Crowley ironically ended up having a longer life than romantic Spike, whilst even Spike eventually had to revert back to his wacky Vampire neighbour persona for Angel.
Yeah, I agree with your take on the article. I don't think Spike was ever 'cool' anyway? Part of his character was that he was always trying a bit too hard, even as a human. He was always vulnerable and needy. He wanted approval from others; JM even said so with regards to Angel, saying Spike saw him as a big brother. I watched a bit of Supernatural but I don't remember Crowley... But this blog post puts it well. Does that mean the writers changed the direction for Spike mid S2?
 
Reason: Sent too soon
Last edited:

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,670
Age
30
Or, maybe she finds that Kennedy's cruelness balances her in some way, i.e. she doesn't feel 'as bad' a person. Or even, maybe she feels she doesn't deserve someone like Tara anymore after what she did.
That's kind of a dodgy message to be sending to the audience. Willow made a mistake so now she doesn't deserve to be with a nice person anymore. The only person she deserves to be with is someone like Kennedy, a nasty character who treats others likes crap. Willow doesn't deserve anyone better.

What probably happened is that the writers thought Kennedy was this great character that the audience would love, and instead the audience hated her.

Does that mean the writers changed the direction for Spike mid S2?
Spike was supposed to die when the organ fell on him but his popularity forced the writers to keep him alive, hence why he spends many episodes in a wheelchair. It basically keeps him out of the action. It wasn't until Lovers Walk (which was originally supposed to feature Dru too but JL was unavailable) that Joss decided to add Spike to the main cast. He was supposed to take over Cordelia's role but they couldn't get him into daytime scenes without a smoking blanket and the smoke became too much for everyone so Anya kind of took on Cordelia's role instead.

Angel only got a Season 5 on proviso that Spike was brought over hence why his return was so heavily advertised even though it was supposed to be a surprise.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
275
Age
62
I think when they created Kennedy they expected us to see her as a no nonsense badass but she crosses well over the line into obnoxiousness. If she hadn’t been going out with Willow Buffy would have put her in her place

Faith came into s3 very brash and cocky but we see a vulnerable side to her inher first episode. We never get that with Kennedy, she’s exactly the same character the whole time, what we find out is nothing more than was established in the first 5 seconds when she’s rude to Buffy
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,505
Age
40
Location
London, UK
Yeah I would say its underrated. The return to the MOTW format is a nice change of pace. You get some truly creepy episode and some good grounded drama. The return of Faith is a nice surprise and its a great way to end her arc on the show. Dawn really comes into her own this season. I enjoyed Spike's storyline more once he gets out of the basement ;) The potentials plot was a good idea, but its a swing and a miss for on that one for me. The First plot doesn't quite land either. But it has its moments. The finale was pleasing too.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,402
Black Thorn
Getting to Africa was more amazing seeing as he cannot travel in daylight ,
Of course he can. Even Angel said they travel in daylight "In fact you know, we can and do move around during the day, as long as we avoid direct sunlight"

Thanks to the Buffy-Boards KAST replay of Parting Gifts, I was able to recall that line.
 

Lovetheearth

Townie
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
7
Age
31
That's kind of a dodgy message to be sending to the audience. Willow made a mistake so now she doesn't deserve to be with a nice person anymore. The only person she deserves to be with is someone like Kennedy, a nasty character who treats others likes crap. Willow doesn't deserve anyone better.
Yeah, definitely fair point. But... to play devil's advocate, is it not a dodgy message that Buffy forgives / falls in love with Spike after what he did? He may have a soul, but he still punches Faith and shows no remorse to Robin. Don't get me wrong, I really dislike Kennedy and think Spike is a great character. Just throwing out some potential rationale behind the decision on Kennedy.

That's interesting about the organ and Cordelia character replacement; thanks. So here is a burning question of mine, as I don't know how TV production works. Did they write seasons as they filmed and broadcast episodes to get that fan reaction? Or did they show it to a smaller audience? I read an interview with SMG about S7's great reception, yet in that interview she didn't know what the last episode would be. Or was she just being coy? I also read that the other cast members didn't know that S7 was the last one until this interview?

In response to the annoying potentials that we don't get attached to somewhere on this thread, IMO that was mainly to highlight their inexperience for the final episode to have more impact. When Buffy says she was actively trying to not connect with them or get to know them as she knew many would die, that's when the penny dropped for me. We as an audience were watching through Buffy's perspective. JM touches on that in the interview I posted above, saying that the audience always imagines they are Buffy when watching the series.

In short, I think S7 is underrated too. There are some throwbacks to earlier seasons for the nostalgia, as well as celebrating the overall series message that sharing strength is more powerful, showcasing this message in the most definitive way.
Maybe it sounds a little too rose-tinted of BtVS, but I honestly believe there is something to love in every season and I think the way the storylines and characters evolve is just right.
 

burrunjor

Potential
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
331
Age
29
[QUOTE="DeadlyDuo, post: 1431354, member: 13738"

Spike was supposed to die when the organ fell on him but his popularity forced the writers to keep him alive, hence why he spends many episodes in a wheelchair. It basically keeps him out of the action. It wasn't until Lovers Walk (which was originally supposed to feature Dru too but JL was unavailable) that Joss decided to add Spike to the main cast. He was supposed to take over Cordelia's role but they couldn't get him into daytime scenes without a smoking blanket and the smoke became too much for everyone so Anya kind of took on Cordelia's role instead.

Angel only got a Season 5 on proviso that Spike was brought over hence why his return was so heavily advertised even though it was supposed to be a surprise.
[/QUOTE]

This is one thing I don't get about Spike not working out as Cordelia because of the smoking blanket. Why wouldn't that still be an issue if he were Buffy's love interest? Wouldn't it be more of an issue then since he'd have to keep showing up in her house? Then there is Angel who has his own show and can't go out in the sun.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
275
Age
62
Yeah, definitely fair point. But... to play devil's advocate, is it not a dodgy message that Buffy forgives / falls in love with Spike after what he did? He may have a soul, but he still punches Faith and shows no remorse to Robin. Don't get me wrong, I really dislike Kennedy and think Spike is a great character. Just throwing out some potential rationale behind the decision on Kennedy.

That's interesting about the organ and Cordelia character replacement; thanks. So here is a burning question of mine, as I don't know how TV production works. Did they write seasons as they filmed and broadcast episodes to get that fan reaction? Or did they show it to a smaller audience? I read an interview with SMG about S7's great reception, yet in that interview she didn't know what the last episode would be. Or was she just being coy? I also read that the other cast members didn't know that S7 was the last one until this interview?

In response to the annoying potentials that we don't get attached to somewhere on this thread, IMO that was mainly to highlight their inexperience for the final episode to have more impact. When Buffy says she was actively trying to not connect with them or get to know them as she knew many would die, that's when the penny dropped for me. We as an audience were watching through Buffy's perspective. JM touches on that in the interview I posted above, saying that the audience always imagines they are Buffy when watching the series.

In short, I think S7 is underrated too. There are some throwbacks to earlier seasons for the nostalgia, as well as celebrating the overall series message that sharing strength is more powerful, showcasing this message in the most definitive way.
Maybe it sounds a little too rose-tinted of BtVS, but I honestly believe there is something to love in every season and I think the way the storylines and characters evolve is just right.
It was a dodgy message when they made the AR all about Spike and how he feels and pretty much ignored our
Main protagonists feelings on it. In fact they basically made her fully responsible for his wellbeing
 
L
Lovetheearth
Yes! I wrote something similar(ish) on the S4 board.

AstridDante

Potential
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
205
Age
41
I liked not loved Season 7. I was really sad to see the denigration in the relationship between Giles and Buffy. Wood was pointless and wasn’t a fan of the potentials taking up so much screen time, don’t get me started on their general attitude and ungratefulness...Kennedy and Rhona spring to mind. Also Dawn got on my wick. Buffy was definitely in the ‘fight of her life’ and felt like she stood alone in many ways but in some respects she did cut herself off and make herself the ‘law’ but I agree with other posters in that she probably thought a democracy wouldn’t win the war. After all these potentials were for the most part a bunch of frightened young girls who had never faced anything like this. The only people up to that point with real power was Willow, Faith and Spike. I think she was hard on the girls when one of the potentials committed suicide but that was anger that it was to her mind a needless waste of life and that the First was essentially going to pick the girls off. I liked that Spike’s arc was finished off on a positive note after the character assassination of Season 6. He went from villain to hero and there was resolution/healing to his and Buffy’s relationship as well as respect of the Bangel ship. I think I would have liked to have seen the Scoobies closer however there was some sweet moments between them
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,157
Age
39
That's kind of a dodgy message to be sending to the audience. Willow made a mistake so now she doesn't deserve to be with a nice person anymore. The only person she deserves to be with is someone like Kennedy, a nasty character who treats others likes crap. Willow doesn't deserve anyone better.

What probably happened is that the writers thought Kennedy was this great character that the audience would love, and instead the audience hated her.



Spike was supposed to die when the organ fell on him but his popularity forced the writers to keep him alive, hence why he spends many episodes in a wheelchair. It basically keeps him out of the action. It wasn't until Lovers Walk (which was originally supposed to feature Dru too but JL was unavailable) that Joss decided to add Spike to the main cast. He was supposed to take over Cordelia's role but they couldn't get him into daytime scenes without a smoking blanket and the smoke became too much for everyone so Anya kind of took on Cordelia's role instead.

Angel only got a Season 5 on proviso that Spike was brought over hence why his return was so heavily advertised even though it was supposed to be a surprise.
I think JM said that Angelus was going to kill him. That Angel goes evil comes back stakes him and takes his place. Im glad that didn't happen.

Its also fortunate for him that Juliet Landau couldn't do Lovers Walk otherwise I doubt he would've got so many scenes besides with Buffy with characters like Willow if that were the case.

Also read that for Ats S5 that Joss originally wanted Spike in for a reoccurring role but JM said no its as a Regular or nothing. If true I don't blame JM for that. Going from regular work to Part time work with the same employer would be a step down in any job and he'd be better served working elsewhere if that was the case.

[QUOTE="DeadlyDuo, post: 1431354, member: 13738"

Spike was supposed to die when the organ fell on him but his popularity forced the writers to keep him alive, hence why he spends many episodes in a wheelchair. It basically keeps him out of the action. It wasn't until Lovers Walk (which was originally supposed to feature Dru too but JL was unavailable) that Joss decided to add Spike to the main cast. He was supposed to take over Cordelia's role but they couldn't get him into daytime scenes without a smoking blanket and the smoke became too much for everyone so Anya kind of took on Cordelia's role instead.

Angel only got a Season 5 on proviso that Spike was brought over hence why his return was so heavily advertised even though it was supposed to be a surprise.
This is one thing I don't get about Spike not working out as Cordelia because of the smoking blanket. Why wouldn't that still be an issue if he were Buffy's love interest? Wouldn't it be more of an issue then since he'd have to keep showing up in her house? Then there is Angel who has his own show and can't go out in the sun.
[/QUOTE]

The Cordy character trope had already played itself out by Buffy S3. The character basically got a reset after the Xander break up and wouid simply show up for the obligatory insult scene in an episode. Until the Prom where she was put back to normal to set up for the spin off. But until then the writers clearly had no idea what to do with her except that she was on a contract and so had to appear.
Even then she'd act or say something stupid for the sake of crossover plot ala IWRY or Disharmony "I thought she was a big lesbo) . But there's no way the cliche High school bitch routine would work in the college setting. It didn't work with Spike either. Even Joss said he'd just show up and borrow a cup of coffee and insult them.

As for Season 7 and the The title thread. I though it was terrible. The writers clearly were played out. When your replaying previous stories from earlier seasons its an obvious sign.
The First was terrible as a villain for a while season. Not helped by having most episodes in Buffys house. Clearly saving the budget for Joss finale (a huge rip off in itself) while spending so much time on the Potentials in the hope they might generate a spin off was again another failure.
SMG was clearly bored by this point. At the time of airing People used to joke that the difference between Buffy and First Buffy was her folded arms. That's how bad it got.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,346
Age
48
I think when they created Kennedy they expected us to see her as a no nonsense badass but she crosses well over the line into obnoxiousness. If she hadn’t been going out with Willow Buffy would have put her in her place

Faith came into s3 very brash and cocky but we see a vulnerable side to her inher first episode. We never get that with Kennedy, she’s exactly the same character the whole time, what we find out is nothing more than was established in the first 5 seconds when she’s rude to Buffy
Lani at Chipperish media puts it another way that Kennedy has no real vulnerabilities - we sympathise with both Spike and Faith as there are real vulnerabilities alongside the sexiness and snark. In fact I disagree that all Spike's fans prefer him bad - I don't and I don't think I'm unique. The best villians have it too - the Mayor had his around Faith.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
275
Age
62
I have so many issues with s7 and sorry Spike fans but most of them are because I feel like characters are sacrificed to make way for the Spike show. His story seems to take precedence over everyone else’s including Buffy. This is particularly irritating when you think that his story was always going to be continuing on Angel whereas other than some possible brief cameo’s on Angel Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn, Anya and Faith all needed their stories to be completely wrapped up.

most mains don’t even get their own arc this season. Xander and Dawn seem to have one scene a week where it’s pointed out ‘look at how normal they are’. Anya gets teased an arc that comes to nothing which they realise in End of Days when they give her although a nice speech actually makes no sense in relation to her character history, she’s already stayed and fought in The Gift and she was literally the only person to stay behind with Buffy against Dark Willow - they didn’t even know Giles was turning up so she’s the only person backing Buffy up in this episode

Spike gets endless arcs, most of which come to absolutely nothing and the screen time could have been given to someone else:

Spuffy - sorry Spuffy’s but I find Spuffy this season to be nothing more than fanfiction. I don’t understand what makes Buffy suddenly so doe eyed in Showtime, I don’t think we actually see anything that would reflect this sudden change. Also making the AR all about Spike’s redemption and ignoring our main character’s trauma was appalling

The trigger - goes nowhere, is a chain around the neck of Buffy and Spike’s characters because they can’t have him constantly tied up so just kind of ignore if when they need to. What was The Firsts plan for him anyway?

The First holding him hostage - why? Do we ever even find a reason as to why they were holding him in that cave?


The amulet - all season we have a build up of how are they going to beat the first? The scythe makes sense as it’s basically the slayer holy grail and the spell is the perfect way to end the show but they upstage this with the amulet which is given 5 minutes screen time in Angel with no explanation and then Angel throws it to Buffy with a ‘don’t know what it does’ who throws it to Spike with a ‘don’t know what it does’. It turns out to be the saviour. The worst example of a deus ex machina in the whole show

Robin Wood - his character is really interesting for about half a season and you think ‘wow son of a slayer this could be really interesting to explore Buffy’s thoughts on children’ then it’s revealed ‘ha gotcha it’s another Spike storyline!’. lMPTM is a good episode but I actually think both Robin and Spike equally come across as douchebags - ending with Robin adding Buffy to his burn book of grudges. Robin should have left at this point as they clearly had nowhere for him to go or do so they lumber Faith with him

Faith -i adore her character but they kind of ignore her relationships with the other scoobies. Faith is a highly emotional character for all of the mains except Spike but they just ignore all of that history. Plus I wanted more Buffy/Faith scenes, I wanted a big heart to heart - I felt they both deserved this as much as I love the ‘hot chicks with superpowers’ talk. I felt like her character it wasted in Touched on Robin, there wasn’t time to build a new relationship for her when theyhad no time to explore her current relationships

Empty Places - awful. Every character other than Buffy, Spike and Faith are basically destroyed in that end scene - all sacrificed at the alter of Spike to make him the knight in shining armour. I know some try to justify it but it’s insanely ooc for them
To throw Buffy out after one battle that went wrong. Then in Touched which is literally straight after other than one throwaway line from Dawn none of them seem to care that they’ve totally kicked Buffy out into the apocolypse with no weapons and nothing but the clothes on her back. Faith is the only one who seems to care and acknowledge that it was a shitty thing to do - the others are all bantering between themselves the rest of the episode it’s just awful. They never recover the others either because they never do a makeup scene which Buffy really deserves - we only see Faith apologise and she’s the only one that didn’t need to. 3 episodes before the end of a 7 year show and they nuke most of their mains - I could write for days about how much I hate this episode

Kennedy - again could write for days about why I hate her but I can’t be bothered 😂

the first 7 episodes are fantastic but then it’s like they just scrap everything about those episodes and it’s a long miserable mess for the rest of the season. There is some good moments and episodes but mostly it falls well below par
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,157
Age
39
I have so many issues with s7 and sorry Spike fans but most of them are because I feel like characters are sacrificed to make way for the Spike show. His story seems to take precedence over everyone else’s including Buffy. This is particularly irritating when you think that his story was always going to be continuing on Angel whereas other than some possible brief cameo’s on Angel Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn, Anya and Faith all needed their stories to be completely wrapped up.

most mains don’t even get their own arc this season. Xander and Dawn seem to have one scene a week where it’s pointed out ‘look at how normal they are’. Anya gets teased an arc that comes to nothing which they realise in End of Days when they give her although a nice speech actually makes no sense in relation to her character history, she’s already stayed and fought in The Gift and she was literally the only person to stay behind with Buffy against Dark Willow - they didn’t even know Giles was turning up so she’s the only person backing Buffy up in this episode

Spike gets endless arcs, most of which come to absolutely nothing and the screen time could have been given to someone else:

Spuffy - sorry Spuffy’s but I find Spuffy this season to be nothing more than fanfiction. I don’t understand what makes Buffy suddenly so doe eyed in Showtime, I don’t think we actually see anything that would reflect this sudden change. Also making the AR all about Spike’s redemption and ignoring our main character’s trauma was appalling

The trigger - goes nowhere, is a chain around the neck of Buffy and Spike’s characters because they can’t have him constantly tied up so just kind of ignore if when they need to. What was The Firsts plan for him anyway?

The First holding him hostage - why? Do we ever even find a reason as to why they were holding him in that cave?


The amulet - all season we have a build up of how are they going to beat the first? The scythe makes sense as it’s basically the slayer holy grail and the spell is the perfect way to end the show but they upstage this with the amulet which is given 5 minutes screen time in Angel with no explanation and then Angel throws it to Buffy with a ‘don’t know what it does’ who throws it to Spike with a ‘don’t know what it does’. It turns out to be the saviour. The worst example of a deus ex machina in the whole show

Robin Wood - his character is really interesting for about half a season and you think ‘wow son of a slayer this could be really interesting to explore Buffy’s thoughts on children’ then it’s revealed ‘ha gotcha it’s another Spike storyline!’. lMPTM is a good episode but I actually think both Robin and Spike equally come across as douchebags - ending with Robin adding Buffy to his burn book of grudges. Robin should have left at this point as they clearly had nowhere for him to go or do so they lumber Faith with him

Faith -i adore her character but they kind of ignore her relationships with the other scoobies. Faith is a highly emotional character for all of the mains except Spike but they just ignore all of that history. Plus I wanted more Buffy/Faith scenes, I wanted a big heart to heart - I felt they both deserved this as much as I love the ‘hot chicks with superpowers’ talk. I felt like her character it wasted in Touched on Robin, there wasn’t time to build a new relationship for her when theyhad no time to explore her current relationships

Empty Places - awful. Every character other than Buffy, Spike and Faith are basically destroyed in that end scene - all sacrificed at the alter of Spike to make him the knight in shining armour. I know some try to justify it but it’s insanely ooc for them
To throw Buffy out after one battle that went wrong. Then in Touched which is literally straight after other than one throwaway line from Dawn none of them seem to care that they’ve totally kicked Buffy out into the apocolypse with no weapons and nothing but the clothes on her back. Faith is the only one who seems to care and acknowledge that it was a shitty thing to do - the others are all bantering between themselves the rest of the episode it’s just awful. They never recover the others either because they never do a makeup scene which Buffy really deserves - we only see Faith apologise and she’s the only one that didn’t need to. 3 episodes before the end of a 7 year show and they nuke most of their mains - I could write for days about how much I hate this episode

Kennedy - again could write for days about why I hate her but I can’t be bothered 😂

the first 7 episodes are fantastic but then it’s like they just scrap everything about those episodes and it’s a long miserable mess for the rest of the season. There is some good moments and episodes but mostly it falls well below par
Disagree about them having a plan for Robin Wood. The writers admitted they didn't even know his gender at one point hence the gender less name Robin. The Slayer mother background was last minute (also admitted) with no big plan. The whole he buries Jonathan evil and mysteriously plot went no where.
Many of the issues you bring up have nowt to do with Spike just general writing. Xanders issues go back years. You look at the Replacement in S5 its the exact same development as the Zeppo. In S4 he was to quote Jane Espenson fun to humiliate. Post S3 they didn't know what to do with him and pretty much existed to give Nick Brendon a paycheque. If anyone in S7 was taking his spot it was Andrew not Spike. That seems as much because of NB's real life problems which were starting to take off by then.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
275
Age
62
Disagree about them having a plan for Robin Wood. The writers admitted they didn't even know his gender at one point hence the gender less name Robin. The Slayer mother background was last minute (also admitted) with no big plan. The whole he buries Jonathan evil and mysteriously plot went no where.
Many of the issues you bring up have nowt to do with Spike just general writing. Xanders issues go back years. You look at the Replacement in S5 its the exact same development as the Zeppo. In S4 he was to quote Jane Espenson fun to humiliate. Post S3 they didn't know what to do with him and pretty much existed to give Nick Brendon a paycheque. If anyone in S7 was taking his spot it was Andrew not Spike. That seems as much because of NB's real life problems which were starting to take off by then.
Oh I agree about the writing. I don’t Dislike Spike’s character in himself, I dislike the way his character had a ridiculous amount of screen time and storylines when others were scrabbling around for scenes. Made even worse that most storylines came to absolutely nothing (this screen time could have been given to other characters and actually completed storylines) and also by the fact Spike was going to be continuing in the verse anyway when everyone else needed their stories completely wrapping up

I agree about Robin Wood also, purely due to his actions from LMPTM till Chosen he’s one of my most disliked characters in the whole show. Like you say they never quite seemed to understand where they were taking him, he never really gets a defined character despite quite a large amount of screen time. He’s hovering in the background of scenes from this episode onwards for no particular reason, plus his ‘you’re asking too much from us’ to Buffy in EP makes my teeth itch because she’s asking sod all from him because he’s done sod all to help and I’m just waiting for Buffy to ask ‘why are you here?’
 

LeeJones41

Potential
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
143
Age
49
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I recently finished rewatching season 7 and think it’s underrated. One of the weaker seasons but it gets better with each watch imo. Only episode I didn’t care much for was Don’t Leave Me. The first half was better than the second, but still a pretty solid season. Lessons is one of the best season openers. It helps that I really like most of the Buffy/Spike scenes, even though I’m not a Spuffy fan, and I like Kennedy. Thought the First became a more interesting villain towards the end when it was working with Caleb.

The few things I didn’t like were:
1. Xander and Anya getting back together.
2. The Guardians being introduced out of nowhere.
3. Chosen not being a longer finale.

I don't regard Season 7 as one of the weaker seasons. And yes, I believe it is underrated. My only real problem with Season 7 is the Eye of Beljoxa. I never really understood what that was about.


I agree about Robin Wood also, purely due to his actions from LMPTM till Chosen he’s one of my most disliked characters in the whole show.
Really? I didn't like Robin's attempt to kill Spike. But I understood why he tried it. Giles was another matter. I really disliked him during Season 7. But I should have seen this coming. I had noticed over the years that the more frightened Giles became, the more he was willing to toss his moral standards out the window.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
275
Age
62
I don't regard Season 7 as one of the weaker seasons. And yes, I believe it is underrated. My only real problem with Season 7 is the Eye of Beljoxa. I never really understood what that was about.




Really? I didn't like Robin's attempt to kill Spike. But I understood why he tried it. Giles was another matter. I really disliked him during Season 7. But I should have seen this coming. I had noticed over the years that the more frightened Giles became, the more he was willing to toss his moral standards out the window.
Ah it wasn’t Robin wanting to kill Spike that bothered me. I thought they both came across as dbags that episode. I just can’t bear his role in the mutiny when he had no right to a say because he hadn’t done anything at all to help - he seemed to just hover in the background for reasons unknown. I found his know it all attitude really insufferable really
 

SpikeOrAngel

Townie
Joined
Oct 8, 2020
Messages
25
Might not mean much but I watched Season 7 at a faster rate than Season 5 this time around. I was more intrigued with how things wrap up, and as a concept The First > Glory.
Really felt like a soap opera (in a good way) and I was excited to keep going, although it may have been boosted by watching Angel at the same time during this rewatch.
In execution, The First being intangible and playing mind-games with the truth paled into comparison to Angelus in Angel Season 4. Plus The Beast and Jasmine felt more like the Apocalypse than The First's plan. If Buffy and Angel were on the CW in 2020+, there would have been a huge crossover with both villains instead of mostly keeping separate (the Willow cameo to restore Angel's soul and Angel with the amulet).
Liked Spike better as a villain but understand they would run out of excuses for him to survive all the time.
Not sure why there are questions about The First using Spike. He wound up saving the world, and The First knew he was a Champion and Buffy needed him.
 
Top Bottom