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Season 8 my thoughts spoilers duh

Btvs fan

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So I read "Season 8" in which Joss gets to tell his story without having to worry about budget or actors or anything. All it needs is to be drawn. So if he wants to go to space or another universe he can do and he does.

Tbh it's a bit of a mixed bag for me. This is gonna be a bit random so bear with me.

First the Art. I love the Portrait pictures they look fantastic but the actuall panels urgh they look awful. Like the panel with Buffy and Satsu together. They are drawn almost childlike and it's not a good look.

Ok 2nd the length. It's a long season with many issues and I feel like they could've chopped some of the middle out and still not missed a beat. There is some good stuff and other stuff that has no relevance to the actual story. While you have other stuff that is relevant that makes me go WTF 😳 All in all it's a bit of a mess that could have used a story editor and some planning.

3rd the characters. Buffy is written very well and her internal thoughts are fun. (Though her robbing banks is WTF moment) Whether it's her knowing she is going to have to kill Willow or her feelings regards Angel/Spike it's all good stuff. but then you have some like Dawn whose just there. She turns from a Giant to a Horse (with some very uncomfortable jokes) and really does nothing. Ever since S5 she has no real role or need to be on the show and it carrys on in the comics, they just pair her with Xander which again feels like just to give her something to do.
Willow was ok but I actually preferred her more in the Spike in Vegas comic. If ever there was a Spike movie, Willow would be a good fit for it. Here she is just in an out and her powers are strong or weak dependant on what the plot need them to be.
Xanders ok, he's basically Nick Fury until he decides to date the girl he used to babysit 🤢
Riley shows up and despite having a potentially interesting character arc, is still (incredibly) managed to be written as a rather boring cipher. We get to know nothing about his inner motivation or why he'd work for Buffy or whether he would consider it the right thing. Nope he just does and that's it.
Angel and Spike do show up but really just as plot devices and give exposition. Angel is leading the bad guys because he thinks the alternative might be worse but he's not really bad (wait what). He and Buffy then have sex which gives birth to a universe, yes you read that right 🤦‍♂️ before he starts to be good before he goes under the influence and kills Giles before reverting back to normal and is taken in by Faith.
Anyway Spike shows up in a Space ship to rescue Buffy and the Slayers. Straight from having Sex with Angel Buffy is fantasizing about having sex with Spike. Spike gives her the exposition about how to end the incredibly complicated story.
It ends in San Francisco with Spike giving Buffy hints about S9 while shes being bitchy to him and that's pretty much it.

The best and most interesting character in S8 is Faith. Her relationship with Giles and her whole arc in trying to help other Girls is great. It's easily the best part of S8 and no coincidence that in relation to the overall arc is arguably the furthest from it but it's the most fun. This is what a Faith Spin off could've/should've been rather than what was pitched ie Dark Angel mk2
Also the irony of Giles wanting Faith, who Buffy tried kill, to kill another Slayer so Buffy doesnt when Buffy is perfectly ready to and about to kill Genevieve is ironic.

Anyway more to come but work calls ...
 

katmobile

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Jun 17, 2018
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So I read "Season 8" in which Joss gets to tell his story without having to worry about budget or actors or anything. All it needs is to be drawn. So if he wants to go to space or another universe he can do and he does.

Tbh it's a bit of a mixed bag for me. This is gonna be a bit random so bear with me.

First the Art. I love the Portrait pictures they look fantastic but the actuall panels urgh they look awful. Like the panel with Buffy and Satsu together. They are drawn almost childlike and it's not a good look.

Ok 2nd the length. It's a long season with many issues and I feel like they could've chopped some of the middle out and still not missed a beat. There is some good stuff and other stuff that has no relevance to the actual story. While you have other stuff that is relevant that makes me go WTF 😳 All in all it's a bit of a mess that could have used a story editor and some planning.

3rd the characters. Buffy is written very well and her internal thoughts are fun. (Though her robbing banks is WTF moment) Whether it's her knowing she is going to have to kill Willow or her feelings regards Angel/Spike it's all good stuff. but then you have some like Dawn whose just there. She turns from a Giant to a Horse (with some very uncomfortable jokes) and really does nothing. Ever since S5 she has no real role or need to be on the show and it carrys on in the comics, they just pair her with Xander which again feels like just to give her something to do.
Willow was ok but I actually preferred her more in the Spike in Vegas comic. If ever there was a Spike movie, Willow would be a good fit for it. Here she is just in an out and her powers are strong or weak dependant on what the plot need them to be.
Xanders ok, he's basically Nick Fury until he decides to date the girl he used to babysit 🤢
Riley shows up and despite having a potentially interesting character arc, is still (incredibly) managed to be written as a rather boring cipher. We get to know nothing about his inner motivation or why he'd work for Buffy or whether he would consider it the right thing. Nope he just does and that's it.
Angel and Spike do show up but really just as plot devices and give exposition. Angel is leading the bad guys because he thinks the alternative might be worse but he's not really bad (wait what). He and Buffy then have sex which gives birth to a universe, yes you read that right 🤦‍♂️ before he starts to be good before he goes under the influence and kills Giles before reverting back to normal and is taken in by Faith.
Anyway Spike shows up in a Space ship to rescue Buffy and the Slayers. Straight from having Sex with Angel Buffy is fantasizing about having sex with Spike. Spike gives her the exposition about how to end the incredibly complicated story.
It ends in San Francisco with Spike giving Buffy hints about S9 while shes being bitchy to him and that's pretty much it.

The best and most interesting character in S8 is Faith. Her relationship with Giles and her whole arc in trying to help other Girls is great. It's easily the best part of S8 and no coincidence that in relation to the overall arc is arguably the furthest from it but it's the most fun. This is what a Faith Spin off could've/should've been rather than what was pitched ie Dark Angel mk2
Also the irony of Giles wanting Faith, who Buffy tried kill, to kill another Slayer so Buffy doesnt when Buffy is perfectly ready to and about to kill Genevieve is ironic.

Anyway more to come but work calls ...
I don't mind/quite like the Dander ship and I think Buffy was magically roofied to ramp up her vamp lust by the Twilight entity i.e. not Angel (Twilight wasn't too fussed which one she effed to bring into existence so the effect was still around when she was talking to Spike as she's clearly as high as a kite). She's also initially wtf when talking to Angel and then comes ludicrous space shennagians so that's when the roofie kicks in.

Otherwise yeah I agree with a lot of what you said and it put me off the comics for a long time.
 
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Black Thorn
Wasn't really a big fan of season 8, I don't mind the comics that are about either angel or spike but this one was just kind of way out there. The buffy comics get better though (I've only just started season 11)
 

thetopher

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The first two-thirds of Buffy S8 are probably the best the Buffy comics have to offer apart from A&F S9. The characters seem to have authentic voices and 'feel' about right. The plots are good and the themes/imagery subtle enough but be Buffyesque.
But the last third- round about the time they all rock up in Tibet- just lurches from weird to dumb to bad and back to weird again. The ending is just...in some ways baffling and in others just kinda soul-destroying.
Although I will say that I liked that final issue issue that is nicely reflective and sets up some of the season after.
 

white avenger

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It's been awhile since I read Season 8, but some of my impressions of what I thought of the Season run something like, with SPOILER WARNING FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T READ IT, BUT MIGHT SOMEDAY, in no particular order.....

1) Immediate disappointment o finding out that the Buffy?Immortal romance was all a hoax. I was really, really curious as to exactly who or what the mysterious Immortal actually was, and had always wanted a scent where Angel, Spike, or both, confronted it in a final showdown.

2) Disappointment with the ultimate reveal that Twilight was actually Angel, or Angel was, at least, its chief minion, like Caleb with the First Evil. My theory all along had been that the two publishers had worked out some sort of deal where IDW got Angel, and Dark Horse got Angelus. (In the beginning of the "After The Fall" arc, Angel had no vampiric powers, and was, essentially, a normal human. It would have been the equivalent of IDW getting Lawrence Talbot, and Dark Horse getting the Wolf Man, if you're into classic horror movies)

3) Curiosity about what the rift between himself and Buffy had been, which had been the initial reason why Giles had recruited Faith for their arc together (My theory, which has until now ever ever been confirmed or dismissed, was that Giles and Andrew conspired to hide the fact from her that Spike had returned and had been living in LA with Angel.)

4) Disappointment that we never got to see any sort of Buffy/Spike reunion whatsoever, since it had been established that she had known all along that he had returned, where he was, and, apparently, even why he hadn't made any effort to contact her since coming back (And, somewhat on that note, curiosity about why Dana and what she had done in LA was ever mentioned again)

5) Curiosity about the alliance that Buffy formed with Oz's werewolf colony. At one point, we see the wolves fighting alongside the Slayers. Had the werewolves somehow mastered the ability to both change at will, and also remain in control of their other form? That would have mad a great story arc just in itself.

6) Ultimately, utter astonishment about the terms of the bargain that Angel had apparently struck with Twilight. It flew in the face of everything that Buffy had stood for and fought for for her entire career. Murdering innocent people in order to hopefully save others later is still murder, and participating in a plot to destroy the world, even if the ultimate goal is to somehow transfer selected survivors to a new universe is still participating in a plot to destroy the world, and Angel didn't even have the excuse of a trigger the way that Spike had in Season 7. Angel willingly agreed to serve Twilight in order to be allowed to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in the new universe, and he somehow thought that she would go along with that.

Those are the main things about Season 8 that I didn't really like.
 

Btvs fan

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The first two-thirds of Buffy S8 are probably the best the Buffy comics have to offer apart from A&F S9. The characters seem to have authentic voices and 'feel' about right. The plots are good and the themes/imagery subtle enough but be Buffyesque.
But the last third- round about the time they all rock up in Tibet- just lurches from weird to dumb to bad and back to weird again. The ending is just...in some ways baffling and in others just kinda soul-destroying.
Although I will say that I liked that final issue issue that is nicely reflective and sets up some of the season after.
Oh God don't get me started on the whole Tibet issue. That is just ...😐
Im curious now, what specifically did you find soul destroying/not like about it ?

It's been awhile since I read Season 8, but some of my impressions of what I thought of the Season run something like, with SPOILER WARNING FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T READ IT, BUT MIGHT SOMEDAY, in no particular order.....

1) Immediate disappointment o finding out that the Buffy?Immortal romance was all a hoax. I was really, really curious as to exactly who or what the mysterious Immortal actually was, and had always wanted a scent where Angel, Spike, or both, confronted it in a final showdown.

2) Disappointment with the ultimate reveal that Twilight was actually Angel, or Angel was, at least, its chief minion, like Caleb with the First Evil. My theory all along had been that the two publishers had worked out some sort of deal where IDW got Angel, and Dark Horse got Angelus. (In the beginning of the "After The Fall" arc, Angel had no vampiric powers, and was, essentially, a normal human. It would have been the equivalent of IDW getting Lawrence Talbot, and Dark Horse getting the Wolf Man, if you're into classic horror movies)

3) Curiosity about what the rift between himself and Buffy had been, which had been the initial reason why Giles had recruited Faith for their arc together (My theory, which has until now ever ever been confirmed or dismissed, was that Giles and Andrew conspired to hide the fact from her that Spike had returned and had been living in LA with Angel.)

4) Disappointment that we never got to see any sort of Buffy/Spike reunion whatsoever, since it had been established that she had known all along that he had returned, where he was, and, apparently, even why he hadn't made any effort to contact her since coming back (And, somewhat on that note, curiosity about why Dana and what she had done in LA was ever mentioned again)

5) Curiosity about the alliance that Buffy formed with Oz's werewolf colony. At one point, we see the wolves fighting alongside the Slayers. Had the werewolves somehow mastered the ability to both change at will, and also remain in control of their other form? That would have mad a great story arc just in itself.

6) Ultimately, utter astonishment about the terms of the bargain that Angel had apparently struck with Twilight. It flew in the face of everything that Buffy had stood for and fought for for her entire career. Murdering innocent people in order to hopefully save others later is still murder, and participating in a plot to destroy the world, even if the ultimate goal is to somehow transfer selected survivors to a new universe is still participating in a plot to destroy the world, and Angel didn't even have the excuse of a trigger the way that Spike had in Season 7. Angel willingly agreed to serve Twilight in order to be allowed to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in the new universe, and he somehow thought that she would go along with that.

Those are the main things about Season 8 that I didn't really like.
Yeah the whole Spike/Buffy Reunion was an utter let down and completely wasted. Especially as Angel already knew Spike was back since S5 Ats. You think Buffy might be angry at him for not telling her 🤷‍♂️
And as you say things like Dana are completely glossed over.
But I guess Joss felt we needed to have the Master back instead 😟
 

katmobile

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Wasn't really a big fan of season 8, I don't mind the comics that are about either angel or spike but this one was just kind of way out there. The buffy comics get better though (I've only just started season 11)
I'd agree with that I love ten and eleven and nine has some interesting stuff. Have you checked out Angel and Faith the first one especially is awesome.
 

Btvs fan

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I'd agree with that I love ten and eleven and nine has some interesting stuff. Have you checked out Angel and Faith the first one especially is awesome.
The less said about S12 the better though. The only thing I liked about that was Buffy and Faith becoming friends and bonding. Should've happened on the show imo
 

white avenger

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Angel already knew Spike was back since S5 Ats. You think Buffy might be angry at him for not telling her 🤷‍♂️
If not angry, at least curious. I have little or no doubt that Angel was aware of the role hat Spike played in that final battle, including the fact that he would have been the next logical candidate to wear the amulet, with him not doing so himself. Even if Spike had stood on top of his desk and screamed at him to, under no circumstances, NOT call Buffy, given Angel's habit of making his own decisions concerning the lives of others, I can't see him not letting someone know that Spike had returned. For that matter, I don't see how Andrew could have kept his mouth shut, either, after he knew the truth.

And that leads quite well into another of my pet Buffy conspiracy theories. It's the one that I refer to as the"Great Giles Cover Up Conspiracy."

Wes might have called Giles as soon as Spike returned, either for advice on the matter, or just to let him know that one of the Sunnydale defenders, thought dead, had shown up in LA. Likewise, Andrew, who considered himself to be working directly for Giles at the time, would have almost certainly have reported something that important, and, if I recall correctly, the entire lame "false Buffy in Rome cavorting around with the Immortal" story had been a story that Giles and he had concocted together, and would even explain why Andrew was staying in Rome when Angel and Spike arrived.

In order to avoid the possibility of Andrew letting the truth slip out at the wrong moment, Giles could have appointed him the duty of being the pseudo-Buffy's Watcher, reporting only directly to Watcher Headquarters if any problems arose. when Angel and Spike showed up, Andrew reported the matter s ordered, at which time Giles assigned pseudo-Buffy #2 to what was essentially suicide mission, just in case the vampires exposed Andrew's subterfuge. Thus, Giles would have been assured that his concerns about keeping Buffy and Spike apart ("It doesn't matter that you are no longer intimate with him, he is still a bad influence," and "I want so much more for you") would be taken care of.

It would also answer the question of what the rift was between Giles and Buffy at the time that he recruited Faith for their arc in Season 7. Buffy found the truth out about Spike and severed all relations, at least for a time, with him.
 
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Black Thorn
I'd agree with that I love ten and eleven and nine has some interesting stuff. Have you checked out Angel and Faith the first one especially is awesome.
Not yet, I'll get around to it at some point I've got other buffyverse comics I want to read first as well as normal books. I will definitely read them when I've read the other stuff I want to read.
 

thetopher

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Im curious now, what specifically did you find soul destroying/not like about it ?
So many things; Buffy becoming Superman, Giles and Faith getting kidnapped and it no-one noticing, the Twilight ID reveal, the Buffy/Angel fight that leads to space sex because horny/lonely and never mind that he's been killing my slayers and making my life a misery, Spike showing up in a giant bug-ship to do absolutely nothing except give lifts back to Sunnydale and exposition about sigh the seed of wonder (which looked more like a glow-y egg but whatever), deep breath...continue what Twilight actually looked like (silly), the ludicrous 'watcher's have always known about this' Giles exposition (TWO lots of ridiculous 'spainy things!)
Buffy's reaction to the hoards of hell pouring in to the dimension, Buffy fantasizing about Spike sex (the writings throwing in a literal Spuffy bone), the Master's return (lame), Giles unnecessary death, the end of magic and the disappointment that whole plot line will bring.

The aftermath and the quieter moments work better; Buffy's conversations with Willow, Faith, Spike and even Kennedy were well written.
But as time goes on I sympathize more and more with the slayers who attacked Buffy and then got their collective asses kicked. They were totally wrong to do it but in the end they were all kinda sold a massive lie by Buffy, she wasn't worthy enough to lead them.


Even if Spike had stood on top of his desk and screamed at him to, under no circumstances, NOT call Buffy, given Angel's habit of making his own decisions concerning the lives of others, I can't see him not letting someone know that Spike had returned.
But we never see anybody contact any of the Scoobies. Presumably if somebody had then they wouldn't have been so lazy in sending somebody to investigate only when an insane slayer started killing people. And if it were the case and they had forknowledge that Spike was alive then they wouldn't have sent Andrew, the biggest Spike-fanboy on the team, they would've sent somebody more reliable like Xander.

Here's a novel idea, Spike didn't want anybody to know so therefore nobody on team Angel actually told them. Angel can keep a confidence for anybody most of the time. He's got more of a habit of doing that if you ever bother to look.

Hey, if you wanna put an anti-Angel spin on it (and for some reason I think you might really want to) then just tell yourself that Angel was terrified of anybody finding out Spike was alive for he feared that Buffy would come running to W&H to see him and whisk him away as sooin as she knew. Angel wouldn't have wanted that to happen so he swore everyone to secrecy under pain of neck-snappage.

Anyway, it's far more likely that everyone found out about Spike being alive after the events of 'Not Fade Away' which is, presumably, when the Scoobies would've investigated W&H more closely.

Also the 'fake Buffy's' idea was Andrew's and Buffy was totally aware of it the whole time, according to S9. She never really wonders about them, and shows zero concern/reaction that one of them actually died in S8 'The Chain'.


I'm always saddened that the writers never set any stories in the fertile 18 month time period between S7 and 8; so many individual stories could've been told; about Buffy's first visit to Rome, about the Immortal and if he ever even met the real Buffy, about Willow and Xander's respective globe-trotting, about Faith and Wood on the Cleveland Hellmouth, loads of individual tales could've made this time period a bit more evocative, instead its a blank space people fill with speculation.
 

white avenger

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Here's a novel idea, Spike didn't want anybody to know
And of course Angel, always being so concerned with what Spike would want and what would be in his best interest, would respect his wishes, the same way that he always has, and make certain that no one on his staff would do so, either.

Hey, if you wanna put an anti-Angel spin on it (and for some reason I think you might really want to) then just tell yourself that Angel was terrified of anybody finding out Spike was alive for he feared that Buffy would come running to W&H to see him and whisk him away as soon as she knew. Angel wouldn't have wanted that to happen so he swore everyone to secrecy under pain of neck-snappage.
There's a big difference in being terrified that something might happen and simply not bothering, for whatever reason, ("You know, I started it. The whole having a soul. Before it was all the new thing," "My God, are you twelve?") to put Buffy in contact with an ensouled vampire, who was, by her own admission, "In her heart," and had no perfect happiness clause attached to his soul. Angel was clearly jealous of the potential for a relationship that Spike had with Buffy, something that he didn't, and possibly never would have. Added to jealousy, we have seen before that Angel can be petty and self centered, often making decisions that effect others, without ever letting them know what he was doing, usually using the "It was for the greater good," excuse., even when that "greater good" came back to bite him in the ass.

There's a big difference in being anti-Angel and simply recognizing the traits of the character as they were presented. Joss didn't write about perfect and characters, and Angel, despite his name, was, most definitely, no cherub. He had his flaws, just like every other character in the Whedonverse. That's what made them interesting. Robert Heinlein once said, "Knights errant spend their nights erring." That pretty much describes most of the characters in the Buffyverse, with the possible exceptions of Joan and Randy.

I'm always saddened that the writers never set any stories in the fertile 18 month time period between S7 and 8; so many individual stories could've been told; about Buffy's first visit to Rome, about the Immortal and if he ever even met the real Buffy, about Willow and Xander's respective globe-trotting, about Faith and Wood on the Cleveland Hellmouth, loads of individual tales could've made this time period a bit more evocative, instead its a blank space people fill with speculation.
On this, we can most certainly agree. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of potential stories just ripe for the telling in the post Season 7, pre Season 8 time period, beginning with simply, where did they go after leaving the Sunnydale Crater and ending with, what inspired to rob a Swiss bank of its stored Nazi war artifacts.
 

Btvs fan

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And let's not forget the awesome Harmony subplot 😐....

Maybe Joss forgot but Vampires were around long before BtVS. If people found out they exist, there is no way they would suddenly think they are good regardless of what they thought of Slayers. Plus it's a boring subplot anyway...
 

thetopher

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And of course Angel, always being so concerned with what Spike would want and what would be in his best interest, would respect his wishes, the same way that he always has, and make certain that no one on his staff would do so, either.
For most of ghost-Spike's run what we get from Angel is either indifference or irritation at his presence. There is no sign of worry. He openly tells Spike where Buffy is when asked and also replies 'she's not mine to keep' when Spike declares 'you can't keep her from me' ( :rolleyes: ).

So there's really no evidence onscreen to back up your speculation, nor is there anything after the fact that you can ascribe to Angel's motives. You can say 'oh, team Angel, on his instruction, made everyone (including Giles) keep the secret from Buffy because of how jealous he is' but is not one shred of evidence to back it up and it actually doesn't make sense given how events play out.


There's a big difference in being anti-Angel and simply recognizing the traits of the character as they were presented. Joss didn't write about perfect and characters, and Angel, despite his name, was, most definitely, no cherub. He had his flaws, just like every other character in the Whedonverse.
Aw, ya got me. I like Angel 'cause he's so perfect, good and true. ;)

..I am well aware that the guy has massive flaws, 's why I like him. His flaws are interesting and help portray a layered hero-type. Most of my favorites whedon characters have some murk to them (Faith, Wesley, Giles, Willow, etc).

There are people who will act like their favorite is perfect, is never in the wrong and, even when he is wrong, is more sinned against than anything. They do exist in the fandom, but they don't tend to be Angel-fans.

There's a big difference in being anti-Angel and simply recognizing the traits of the character as they were presented.
See above, you have to recognize when your just making stuff up to make a character look bad as opposed to reasoning about a character's likely actions from the information that we're either shown or told.
For example I agree that the Buffy/Giles rift probably had something to do with Spike and a Giles/Andrew 'conspiracy' when they found out post-Damage, but there's no evidence that the secret being kept had anything to do with Angel.
 

katmobile

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So many things; Buffy becoming Superman, Giles and Faith getting kidnapped and it no-one noticing, the Twilight ID reveal, the Buffy/Angel fight that leads to space sex because horny/lonely and never mind that he's been killing my slayers and making my life a misery, Spike showing up in a giant bug-ship to do absolutely nothing except give lifts back to Sunnydale and exposition about sigh the seed of wonder (which looked more like a glow-y egg but whatever), deep breath...continue what Twilight actually looked like (silly), the ludicrous 'watcher's have always known about this' Giles exposition (TWO lots of ridiculous 'spainy things!)
Buffy's reaction to the hoards of hell pouring in to the dimension, Buffy fantasizing about Spike sex (the writings throwing in a literal Spuffy bone), the Master's return (lame), Giles unnecessary death, the end of magic and the disappointment that whole plot line will bring.

The aftermath and the quieter moments work better; Buffy's conversations with Willow, Faith, Spike and even Kennedy were well written.
But as time goes on I sympathize more and more with the slayers who attacked Buffy and then got their collective asses kicked. They were totally wrong to do it but in the end they were all kinda sold a massive lie by Buffy, she wasn't worthy enough to lead them.




But we never see anybody contact any of the Scoobies. Presumably if somebody had then they wouldn't have been so lazy in sending somebody to investigate only when an insane slayer started killing people. And if it were the case and they had forknowledge that Spike was alive then they wouldn't have sent Andrew, the biggest Spike-fanboy on the team, they would've sent somebody more reliable like Xander.

Here's a novel idea, Spike didn't want anybody to know so therefore nobody on team Angel actually told them. Angel can keep a confidence for anybody most of the time. He's got more of a habit of doing that if you ever bother to look.

Hey, if you wanna put an anti-Angel spin on it (and for some reason I think you might really want to) then just tell yourself that Angel was terrified of anybody finding out Spike was alive for he feared that Buffy would come running to W&H to see him and whisk him away as sooin as she knew. Angel wouldn't have wanted that to happen so he swore everyone to secrecy under pain of neck-snappage.

Anyway, it's far more likely that everyone found out about Spike being alive after the events of 'Not Fade Away' which is, presumably, when the Scoobies would've investigated W&H more closely.

Also the 'fake Buffy's' idea was Andrew's and Buffy was totally aware of it the whole time, according to S9. She never really wonders about them, and shows zero concern/reaction that one of them actually died in S8 'The Chain'.


I'm always saddened that the writers never set any stories in the fertile 18 month time period between S7 and 8; so many individual stories could've been told; about Buffy's first visit to Rome, about the Immortal and if he ever even met the real Buffy, about Willow and Xander's respective globe-trotting, about Faith and Wood on the Cleveland Hellmouth, loads of individual tales could've made this time period a bit more evocative, instead its a blank space people fill with speculation.
I'm glad I got to bring this because I forgot to explain how Buffy's behaviour is very obvious some sort of magical drug like effect on here she starts calling out Angel and then something else kicks in and it's pretty obvious by the way she's talking to Spike and her fantasies about him she's as high as a kite. Not that she doesn't already have a fair amount of love/lust for them both already but it's being ramped up. Also I think it's insulating Angel's soul loss.

It's too much for Buffy to process the deaths of so many and season ten makes it clear she's pretty angry with the military over it and she's not entirely wrong over it the military assumed a lot and were a distinct factor in those murders. Also Kennedy is reacting to Willow breaking up with her was unreasonably jealous of Buffy beforehand and knows nothing about Aluwyn and Willow's culpability in going with her behind Kennedy's back so is pushing ALL the blame onto Buffy when some of it is Willow's. A lot of what you say about season eight is pretty spot on though except Giles's death which I think did act as a wake up call/call to action for Buffy. Despite what Willow says and thinks there's no guarantee Willow could have saved the day by herself and many more may well have died including Dawn had Buffy not destroyed the seed.
 

katmobile

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For most of ghost-Spike's run what we get from Angel is either indifference or irritation at his presence. There is no sign of worry. He openly tells Spike where Buffy is when asked and also replies 'she's not mine to keep' when Spike declares 'you can't keep her from me' ( :rolleyes: ).

So there's really no evidence onscreen to back up your speculation, nor is there anything after the fact that you can ascribe to Angel's motives. You can say 'oh, team Angel, on his instruction, made everyone (including Giles) keep the secret from Buffy because of how jealous he is' but is not one shred of evidence to back it up and it actually doesn't make sense given how events play out.




Aw, ya got me. I like Angel 'cause he's so perfect, good and true. ;)

..I am well aware that the guy has massive flaws, 's why I like him. His flaws are interesting and help portray a layered hero-type. Most of my favorites whedon characters have some murk to them (Faith, Wesley, Giles, Willow, etc).

There are people who will act like their favorite is perfect, is never in the wrong and, even when he is wrong, is more sinned against than anything. They do exist in the fandom, but they don't tend to be Angel-fans.



See above, you have to recognize when your just making stuff up to make a character look bad as opposed to reasoning about a character's likely actions from the information that we're either shown or told.
For example I agree that the Buffy/Giles rift probably had something to do with Spike and a Giles/Andrew 'conspiracy' when they found out post-Damage, but there's no evidence that the secret being kept had anything to do with Angel.
Are you serious on the Angel fans don't sanitise everything he does because let's be polite and say it don't look like that from where I'm sitting. Also I find that rich coming from the Faith apogist who hand waves her actions with oh it's mystical. Also I know what you're implying and it's bs just like some fans can't admit their fav is in the wrong ever most accept that they do and their reasons why they do are exactly that ... they're explainations NOT excuses and that includes Spike fans.
 

katmobile

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Not yet, I'll get around to it at some point I've got other buffyverse comics I want to read first as well as normal books. I will definitely read them when I've read the other stuff I want to read.
You might want to read the Angel and Faith before you get into season eleven Buffy.
 
one eyed chicklet
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Thanks, mate. Will do.

thetopher

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I'm glad I got to bring this because I forgot to explain how Buffy's behaviour is very obvious some sort of magical drug like effect on here she starts calling out Angel and then something else kicks in and it's pretty obvious by the way she's talking to Spike and her fantasies about him she's as high as a kite.
Of course Buffy was influenced but she wasn't mind-controlled. Many act like she has no responsibility at all when she does have some. She made a choice, then she changed her mind and went back to set things right.
If her reactions after the fact were different I probably wouldn't be so hard on her but we've been over this before. Ultimately doesn't care about other people's losses, its all about what has cost her.

Not that she doesn't already have a fair amount of love/lust for them both already but it's being ramped up.
Hardly. Buffy never really refers to Angel or Spike that much in S8; Angel a bit maybe (in a flashback issue).
In S9 she doesn't initially react well to Spike's presence but she slowly comes to see him as a comfort as some of her older feelings return. He almost becomes a crutch in fact. That's why he leaves.
Basically its a process of becoming comfortable with him again after- presumably- mourning him a bit.

But in S8 the whole 'bam!wow' with BOTH vampires is unrealistic and makes Buffy look awful given everything esle that is happening.

It's too much for Buffy to process the deaths
Yeah well I don't think she ever actually process' them in any meaningful way, or at least we don't see that. In the last issue of S8 she's defending her actions an' stuff, she's over her lil' oppsey.

What happened to the Buffy who held herself accountable for her mistakes? Even for things that weren't really her fault? It's like she went from one extreme to the other. For S9 she's almost entirely defenisve when people voice incredibly mild criticisms (in context) about what she did.

Also Kennedy is reacting to Willow breaking up with her was unreasonably jealous of Buffy beforehand and knows nothing about Aluwyn and Willow's culpability in going with her behind Kennedy's back so is pushing ALL the blame onto Buffy when some of it is Willow's.
Right, but that's a very in-character for Kennedy. She doesn't like Buffy so there's blame, even if its unwarranted. That's why its a good scene, its not that the scenes are 'corect' but that they're true to the individual characters; Willow focuses on loss of magic, Faith on the slayers that got caught up in the war/Angel, Spike is Buffy's cheerleader 'you did good' and Kennedy is bitter about a breakup.
Also Kennedy might be acting bitter to Buffy about other stuff as well.

Are you serious on the Angel fans don't sanitise everything he does because let's be polite and say it don't look like that from where I'm sitting.
Firstly, you're not being polite.
Secondly there's a difference between criticizing a character's actual actions and just making stuff up to make them look bad/good. In context I was making a judgement about doing the latter.
There are plenty of ways to blame Angel for the things he's actually done. A whole ton of stuff in fact.

Also I find that rich coming from the Faith apogist who hand waves her actions with oh it's mystical.
I don't even know what you're referring too, and its not even remotely on topic. Also name calling is kinda rude.
When have I made excuses for Faith's horrendous actions? Explanations? Sure, we all analyze characters to one degree or the other.

Also I know what you're implying and it's bs just like some fans can't admit their fav is in the wrong ever most accept that they do and their reasons why they do are exactly that ... they're explainations NOT excuses and that includes Spike fans.
Excusing punching people for no reason on multiple occassions and quite a few rape-apologists and victim-blamers. Many fans are in a league of their own and I'll leave it at that.
 

katmobile

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Elements of MOST fans are let's leave it at that, it's #not all fans in all cases but yeah I'm not denying my own camp go too far in some cases although there's a spectrum there and I think a tendancy to label too far on a point futher along from where your own POV is it's complicated and contentious. Also what about Xander and the body swap you won't see for what it is.
 
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