Explain to me what the difference is because no, I don't. "In the end is our beginning; in our beginning is the end" is kinda of a mantra for BtVS. Spuffy's status has changed (as has Giles's...they bring it up).
If we don't see the change then the writers haven't bothered showing us. If they don't care why should we?
If the writers didn't show us the end then why should we invest in a new beginning? It's about investment in the fiction.
I suppose by S12 I'd stopped cared about Giles as well. How did he re-age? Doesn't matter so why should I care.
That's as clear as I can make it.
Okay...that's me told. Does this apply to your own ship or are you somehow exempt
Perhaps I should re-phrase: It seems like different people value a variety of aspects in the Buffyverse. It tends to come down to priorities; character/relationships, plot/world-building, theme/meta. Generally people tend to enjoy/focus on one aspect more than another.
To me shippers seem to focus on character rather than the meta. If you ship two characters simply because of the meta text I find that genuinely surprising but great, enjoyment of the material can come from any place.
And yes, I find shipping shallow in the sense that it is vicarious wish-fulfillment. It's fun, a lot of people do it and I include myself in that. But I'm not primarily here for the shipping. I like characters over ship and I prefer plot over meta.
I might create a poll to see if anyone else feels the same way.
Off the top of my head - she's far more considerate of Dawn when she's with Spike.
Buffy ignores Dawn for most of S6 and when Spike returns in S7 Dawn is the first person who gets shut out by General Buffy. Buffy is most considerate to Dawn in S5 when Spike is not an issue.
She finally confronts the AR and explains her feelings about it.
That's a result of Spike, so should Spuffy get...credit? Not sure about that.
She confronts Angel about her relationship without becoming 15 again (the vamps are childish - she isn't). How much "growth" do you expect from her?
Buffy and Angel can be mature about their relationship; Forever is a good example.
Plus the cookie dough speech is Buffy realizing, on her own, about relationships. That's not down to Spike, at least not directly.
And again the cookie analogy, like any analogy, can be twisted to mean something else. Is Buffy 'stale' in S12? Or is she simply done? Or maybe she's not even a cookie anymore? Analogies are not set in stone.
At the end of S7 the world (figuratively speaking) stretched before her...in S12 she's corralled in a tiny garden with a future predicted for her at school (IIRC). How has she evolved?
That's one way to look at it. Another way is that Buffy finally has a home away from Sunnydale (Post S7 she's too nomadic, rootless), surrounded by friends and family. She has a job where she helps and protects people, she seems content here. People she trusts are working to build a better future and she can choose how and when to get involved in that. Buffy is not apart from the world, she's not treying to change the world, she doesn't have to constantly save the world, she feels that she is
in the world.
Tbh the end of S12 is in some ways how her post-S7 story could've begun, that's my problem with it. It's not sad, just a bit 'why did it take so long to get here?'
I'm not sure we should get hung up about garden fences. Lots of places have fences. Symbolism can be taken many ways, which is kind of the problem.
Is Andrew coded queer enough to establish a watcher's council? Maybe its about maturity and not sexuality.
Let's watch the tone here, it is coming across as rather patronizing. You could have just explained the difference as you perceive it and explained your perception of ships,
Yes, sorry about that. I rephased it because I realized that it sounded rude and dismissive.
