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Season 8 my thoughts spoilers duh

thetopher

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Sineya
And Dawn/Xander had a baby off-screen while Giles reverted to his real age off-screen and Andrew earned loads and loads of money off-screen.
You understand the difference between something changing off-screen and something ending off-screen , right?
Circumstances in a relationship can change and introduce new elements but how something begins and how something ends are fundamental. Dismissing them undermines the foundation of what comes before or after respectively.

Why do you presume people enthuse over a ship for purely romantic reasons?
Because ships are shallow and primarily appeal to emotion. But I guess people can project on to them what they wish.

Not really...the Buffy/Spike partnership generates the potential for messianic time (it's what happens in S7). In some ways it's like Twilight but with a significant difference.
The significant difference is that Twilight was significant and changed Buffy's character, just not in a good way (regression, the end of revolution). Buffy, whilst she dates Spike is unchanging, stuck.
Both of these relationships repeat patterns in Buffy's life that unhelpful to her growth, so she rejects both.

I kinda want to pose the question of what happens to a cookie once it's finished baking?
Presumably the cookie is enjoyed. I saw little joy in any iteration of the Spike/Buffy relationship, especially from Spike. I presume that is why he is content with the relationship ending.
 

TriBel

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I've seen people posit that Buffy's characterization is partly due to SMG/JW balanced influence on the character being now 100% Joss. That basically Joss identified with Buffy and that her inability to grow up reflects Joss' own issues to a greater degree than previously. Do you guys agree with this argument ?
What does "grow up" mean? It's a metaphor and a relatively recent concept...as is "personal growth". Dawn highlights it in Lessons when she says she's taller than Buffy and then cites "Little Women". Giles literally "grows down". It's brought up in S12 in a way that makes me think Whedon's not fully behind the concept. Can characters actually "grow up" when they have "Mummy and Daddy issues"... ie. even as adults they yearn for a parental figure?

But yeah...I'd probably agree it's a reflection of Joss's issues (personal, political and philosophical)
 
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Btvs fan

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I've seen people posit that Buffy's characterization is partly due to SMG/JW balanced influence on the character being now 100% Joss. That basically Joss identified with Buffy and that her inability to grow up reflects Joss' own issues to a greater degree than previously. Do you guys agree with this argument ?
I think you might be right with this
 

TriBel

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You understand the difference between something changing off-screen and something ending off-screen , right?
Explain to me what the difference is because no, I don't. "In the end is our beginning; in our beginning is the end" is kinda of a mantra for BtVS. Spuffy's status has changed (as has Giles's...they bring it up). It's all very "facebooky". That doesn't mean the status is final. Even death isn't final in BtVS.
Circumstances in a relationship can change and introduce new elements but how something begins and how something ends are fundamental. Dismissing them undermines the foundation of what comes before or after respectively.
I'm no sure what you mean. If you mean what I think you mean then I probably disagree. I'm not sure endings and beginnings are as clear cut as you imply.
Because ships are shallow and primarily appeal to emotion. But I guess people can project on to them what they wish.
Okay...that's me told. Does this apply to your own ship or are you somehow exempt
Presumably the cookie is enjoyed. I saw little joy in any iteration of the Spike/Buffy relationship, especially from Spike. I presume that is why he is content with the relationship ending.
It's consumed...any enjoyment is short-lived. Or it's not consumed and it goes stale. Or it's consumed and changes into...never mind. On reflection, I don't think it's a great metaphor. He's content to wait...he's learned to be patient.
Buffy, whilst she dates Spike is unchanging, stuck. Both of these relationships repeat patterns in Buffy's life that unhelpful to her growth, so she rejects both.
D'you reckon? I'll get back to you on that (I've got to go out). Off the top of my head - she's far more considerate of Dawn when she's with Spike. She finally confronts the AR and explains her feelings about it. She confronts Angel about her relationship without becoming 15 again (the vamps are childish - she isn't). How much "growth" do you expect from her? TBH, I don't think becoming "the Law" is growth. It smacks too much of Selfless when it was difficult to establish whether she was selfless or self-less. I'd say she regresses in S12 (and not in a good way). At the end of S7 the world (figuratively speaking) stretched before her...in S12 she's corralled in a tiny garden with a future predicted for her at school (IIRC). How has she evolved? This is empty homogeneous time...This is why I don't like S12...not because of the Spuffy break-up. To say nothing of Xander literally curb crawling her...In fact, of the top of my head (again), I'd say the vampires have probably changed more than the humans... Dawn is literally clinging to Joyce...sigh...it's depressing.
 

Btvs fan

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@TriBel @thetopher @Cheese Slices

I like to think that cant be either Angel or Spike in the comics as both Angel and Spike died swinging in that Alley in Not Fade Away. I think its the best end for both there characters and the Comics don't exist
" Personally I want to Slay the Dragon. Let's go to work"
 

Faded90

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@TriBel @thetopher @Cheese Slices

I like to think that cant be either Angel or Spike in the comics as both Angel and Spike died swinging in that Alley in Not Fade Away. I think its the best end for both there characters and the Comics don't exist
" Personally I want to Slay the Dragon. Let's go to work"
Yeah I’ve always headcanoned that they sadly died here. I think David and James have both said they believe they went down swinging
 

katmobile

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Yep I get him wanting to downscale but you don't just have Buffy abandon all the girls to fend for themselves. Thats really unheroic. Then having Buffy beat some up for good measure 🙁

That's not even going there on the abortion storyline. At first he was actually handling it quite well and maturely then suddenly oh no Buffys not really pregnant she's just a robot that thinks she's pregnant because Andrew roofied her and kidnapped her and placed her mind/soul essence whatever in the Robot. I was like WTF when reading that, I just couldn't believe it
I think you are misrepresenting Buffy beating a trio of them up when they basically gave her 'this town again big enough for the both of us' speech after months of harassment and she told them she didn't want to fight them. Also I thought they like many were salty when what happened meant they're weren't going to be any new slayers. Some blamed Buffy for what happened it wasn't a one way street.
 

Taake

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You understand the difference between something changing off-screen and something ending off-screen , right?
Circumstances in a relationship can change and introduce new elements but how something begins and how something ends are fundamental. Dismissing them undermines the foundation of what comes before or after respectively.


Because ships are shallow and primarily appeal to emotion. But I guess people can project on to them what they wish.
Let's watch the tone here, it is coming across as rather patronizing. You could have just explained the difference as you perceive it and explained your perception of ships, rather than a snarky "right?" question and the suggestions of projection from others (distinguishing your perception from their erroneous one).
 

thetopher

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Explain to me what the difference is because no, I don't. "In the end is our beginning; in our beginning is the end" is kinda of a mantra for BtVS. Spuffy's status has changed (as has Giles's...they bring it up).
If we don't see the change then the writers haven't bothered showing us. If they don't care why should we?
If the writers didn't show us the end then why should we invest in a new beginning? It's about investment in the fiction.

I suppose by S12 I'd stopped cared about Giles as well. How did he re-age? Doesn't matter so why should I care.

That's as clear as I can make it.

Okay...that's me told. Does this apply to your own ship or are you somehow exempt
Perhaps I should re-phrase: It seems like different people value a variety of aspects in the Buffyverse. It tends to come down to priorities; character/relationships, plot/world-building, theme/meta. Generally people tend to enjoy/focus on one aspect more than another.

To me shippers seem to focus on character rather than the meta. If you ship two characters simply because of the meta text I find that genuinely surprising but great, enjoyment of the material can come from any place.

And yes, I find shipping shallow in the sense that it is vicarious wish-fulfillment. It's fun, a lot of people do it and I include myself in that. But I'm not primarily here for the shipping. I like characters over ship and I prefer plot over meta.

I might create a poll to see if anyone else feels the same way.


Off the top of my head - she's far more considerate of Dawn when she's with Spike.
Buffy ignores Dawn for most of S6 and when Spike returns in S7 Dawn is the first person who gets shut out by General Buffy. Buffy is most considerate to Dawn in S5 when Spike is not an issue.

She finally confronts the AR and explains her feelings about it.
That's a result of Spike, so should Spuffy get...credit? Not sure about that.

She confronts Angel about her relationship without becoming 15 again (the vamps are childish - she isn't). How much "growth" do you expect from her?
Buffy and Angel can be mature about their relationship; Forever is a good example.
Plus the cookie dough speech is Buffy realizing, on her own, about relationships. That's not down to Spike, at least not directly.
And again the cookie analogy, like any analogy, can be twisted to mean something else. Is Buffy 'stale' in S12? Or is she simply done? Or maybe she's not even a cookie anymore? Analogies are not set in stone.

At the end of S7 the world (figuratively speaking) stretched before her...in S12 she's corralled in a tiny garden with a future predicted for her at school (IIRC). How has she evolved?
That's one way to look at it. Another way is that Buffy finally has a home away from Sunnydale (Post S7 she's too nomadic, rootless), surrounded by friends and family. She has a job where she helps and protects people, she seems content here. People she trusts are working to build a better future and she can choose how and when to get involved in that. Buffy is not apart from the world, she's not treying to change the world, she doesn't have to constantly save the world, she feels that she is in the world.
Tbh the end of S12 is in some ways how her post-S7 story could've begun, that's my problem with it. It's not sad, just a bit 'why did it take so long to get here?'


I'm not sure we should get hung up about garden fences. Lots of places have fences. Symbolism can be taken many ways, which is kind of the problem.
Is Andrew coded queer enough to establish a watcher's council? Maybe its about maturity and not sexuality.

Let's watch the tone here, it is coming across as rather patronizing. You could have just explained the difference as you perceive it and explained your perception of ships,
Yes, sorry about that. I rephased it because I realized that it sounded rude and dismissive.
 
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