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Seeing Red rewatch my thoughts (non AR)

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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@Cheese Slices I don't think he realises what he is doing even as he is doing it. He has completely deluded himself. He doesn't bother knocking, because he isn't there to respect Buffy's right to privacy or her expressed wishes. He is there to make her see reason, as he understands it.
 

TriBel

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The extra that Warren starts to hit on just does nothing but stand a smile even when her boyfriend comes back and Warren beats him up. Then the other 3 girls he hits on again do nothing but sit and smile as he does his Daddy routine before Xander arrives and saves them. For a "feminist show". This is not a great scene for women.
I can't remember the scene but as you describe it, I think it's a far worse scene for men. Have you ever been in the position of receiving unwanted attention from a man? There's an apocryphal quote (often attributed to Margaret Atwood) of the responses in such a situation and when the situation is reversed: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." You tend to smile because you don't want the situation to escalate. TBH, I think it fits in well with the rest of the discussion I've read here - from Spike/Xander breaking convention by intruding on Buffy's privacy to Buffy fighting back when Spike attacks her. We're not all equipped to do the latter.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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@Cheese Slices I don't think he realises what he is doing even as he is doing it. He has completely deluded himself. He doesn't bother knocking, because he isn't there to respect Buffy's right to privacy or her expressed wishes. He is there to make her see reason, as he understands it.
I agree but I think there's a distinction to be drawn between trying to get your feelings and your concerns addressed and entering the room "as a rapist". I do agree that Buffy's reaction to him sleeping with Anya has given him a slimmer of hope that Buffy does actually love him, and that leads him straight to the sweet simplicity of denial island.
I also agree with your last sentence, but I would say that a big part of it is that he's tired of his feelings, opinions and pretty much his entire person being dismissed. I don't think he's deluded about that, and I think he has a un understable need for closure and resolution. Except that he goes on and completely snaps when what he gets in return isn't what he'd hoped.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Walk, waltz, saunter, barge, storm, trundle, Are we parsing words now?

He had no business in the slightest going in there. If Buffy and Spike were going at it on the floor, that's their business.
Whilst I agree that Xander had no business entering Buffy's bathroom , words do have different "vibes" even though they're describing the same thing eg bumping your head and whacking your head. Both words say you've hit your head, however one implies that you've done it with a much greater force than the other. Both "Waltzed" and "Stormed" describe Xander entering Buffy's bathroom, however one implies with anger whilst the other implies he entered without a care and just strolled in. I think that's what @WillowFromBuffy was getting at.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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@Cheese Slices

I would say he enters as a rapist, because there is a real sense of inevitability to that scene. Spike may not realise that he is about to attempt to rape Buffy. I doubt the possibility has occurred to him. He believes he will finally manage to get Buffy to confess her love for him. But we as the audience realize that that isn't going to happen, so we are expecting some kind of confrontation.

The scene is quite cleverly constructed. We've already said way too much about Spike (and Xander) not knocking. These is a private space being breached by someone who doesn't care and who maybe doesn't even realize that he should care. Spike appears completely oblivious to the violation of privacy he is committing.

The room is also very harshly lit, which is normal for bathrooms, but which is quite jarring for us as an audience. No other scenes in the show are lit this way. And it is very different from other sexual encounters between Buffy and Spike, which has always happened in relative darkness. There's a light of truth to this scene. There is no of the uncertainty and ambiguity of scenes like the balcony scene in "Dead Things", when Spike imposes himself on Buffy "in the darkness."

So, yes, I think Spike enters as a rapist, not because that is his plan or because he may have done anything similar before, but because I feel the outcome is determined. Everything he does upon entering warns us about what is about to happen, even if the extent of it is still shocking on a first time viewing.

I think that whatever you're feelings are on depictions of rape on TV and on whether or not these is in any way gratuitous or done for shock value or to teach the audience a less... I think you have to admire the pure craftsmanship in how the scene is set up. We've seen sexual violence on the show before, but none of those scenes really make much of a mark on people. This one definitely does.

"Seeing Red" is not a pleasant episode, but I think it is a fairly well made one.
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
I understand and concur
B
Btvs fan
The scene was set up with an ad break in mind. The whole set of Buffy injured from being hurt from kicked into a headstone was also false. So no I don't admire it. Also doing a scene just to lecture the audience is meh for me anyway

white avenger

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Okay, here's the thing that has always stuck in my craw about this episode. Spike was going to get a soul that Season, of that I, and quite a few other fans on the official Buffy Forum, had no doubt. We even ran a campaign to each share 10% of our own souls to give him. (He wound up with enough to actually have a couple of souls to spare, in fact) BUT WHY THE HECK DID IT HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT!? (Okay, rant over. Now my main objection)

It was just too easy. Spike does the unmentionable, feels remorse, and says, "Aha! I'll et me a new soul!" and heads straight off to Africa to find the one being (supposedly) in all the Buffyverse who could actually supply him with that soul, no conditions, no limitations, take it and do whatever you feel like, nothing's gonna make it go away. He found it too quickly. He obviously knew, or was relatively sure that he knew, the source of something totally unique in the history of the world, and unthinkable for any vampire or demon. Why would he have such ready knowledge of such a thing?

"Seeing Red" was the 19th episode of Season 6. That means that Joss had 18 weeks prior to that to drop subtle hints that Spike was looking for something. Something big. Something that he would go to great lengths to not have Buffy, Dawn, or any of the others find out about. Something that he had been thinking about ever since that last night alone with Buffy before she died. "I know you'll never love me. I know I'm a monster." and "I made a promise to a lady." A promise that he was unable to fulfill, and that inability cost Buffy her life. That failure, and the desire to somehow atone, should have been the beginning of the idea that, if he were strong enough, determined enough, Spike could actually one day be something more than that monster. ut the audience doesn't have to know just what Spike is looking for, or even why, over all this time. Maybe it actually is a way to have his chip removed, as was the false clue right up to the end.

Okay, so maybe his resolve would slip when Buffy miraculously returned from the dead, but, still, this is Spike we're talking about here. Once he gets on the track of something, he doesn't stop until he finds it, even if, once found, he no longer has any intention of using. But he has the knowledge. He knows where to go, he knows what he would have to do once he got there.

And that is how Spike knows immediately after "that" happens, not only his destination, but how he will get there, and how he will get back.

Regaining his soul shouldn't have been just a spur of the moment whim, it should have been carefully thought out and prepared for, if and when Spike finally decided to do it. And he finally, really, decided to do it.

Okay, my rant's over,
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think that whatever you're feelings are on depictions of rape on TV and on whether or not these is in any way gratuitous or done for shock value or to teach the audience a less... I think you have to admire the pure craftsmanship in how the scene is set up. We've seen sexual violence on the show before, but none of those scenes really make much of a mark on people. This one definitely does.
I do think they took this scene too far. It's one thing to depict a rape/attempted scene on screen, but when the actual filming of that scene leaves one of your actors so disturbed that he has to be repeatedly reassured by his co-star that she's okay and he hasn't hurt her, that it sends him to therapy and he has it put into all his future contracts that he is never ever doing a scene like that again, then there was a problem with the scene that should've been addressed.
 
T
thrasherpix
As this is non-AR I'll just be brief: not just lighting, but also lack of music, drawn out far too long (looks like cut to commercial and back), and Buffy shrieking rather than as she was with Hyena Xander. It was MEANT to be rubbed in our faces.

katmobile

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I do think they took this scene too far. It's one thing to depict a rape/attempted scene on screen, but when the actual filming of that scene leaves one of your actors so disturbed that he has to be repeatedly reassured by his co-star that she's okay and he hasn't hurt her, that it sends him to therapy and he has it put into all his future contracts that he is never ever doing a scene like that again, then there was a problem with the scene that should've been addressed.
Care of his actors both male and female wasn't Joss's strong suit was it? It's just as well that their commitment to his writing kept them going.
 
B
Btvs fan
I doubt it was so much commitment to his writing as such but simply to there jobs.

TriBel

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Seeing Red rewatch my thoughts (non AR) LOL! @Btvs fan - how's that working out for you? ;)

"Seeing Red" is not a pleasant episode, but I think it is a fairly well made one.
I agree. I think the mise-en-scene is effective. TBH, I saw it when it was first transmitted (I wasn't a youngster then and I was versed in feminism) and it didn't "bother" me. Possibly because I don't identify with Buffy, possibly because I tend to have an intellectual rather than an emotional investment in texts and this lends itself to a certain objectivity. I've almost no interest in what actors say or do (other than act). I've never found it gratuitous and I can see the logic of it all but I wish they could have found a different catalyst (I'm not sure they could). I think I'm more concerned about it now because of the triggering effect it has on fans.
 

Btvs fan

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Seeing Red rewatch my thoughts (non AR) LOL! @Btvs fan - how's that working out for you? ;)



I agree. I think the mise-en-scene is effective. TBH, I saw it when it was first transmitted (I wasn't a youngster then and I was versed in feminism) and it didn't "bother" me. Possibly because I don't identify with Buffy, possibly because I tend to have an intellectual rather than an emotional investment in texts and this lends itself to a certain objectivity. I've almost no interest in what actors say or do (other than act). I've never found it gratuitous and I can see the logic of it all but I wish they could have found a different catalyst (I'm not sure they could). I think I'm more concerned about it now because of the triggering effect it has on fans.
Well it was working fine but some people just don't care I guess.

Mise en scene means the arrangement of props on a set. There were no props unless you count the bath.
 
TriBel
TriBel
Only in theatre. On screen it includes everything you see on screen, including lighting, framing, camera angles, film stock etc but not dialogue or sound.

Btvs fan

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I can't remember the scene but as you describe it, I think it's a far worse scene for men. Have you ever been in the position of receiving unwanted attention from a man? There's an apocryphal quote (often attributed to Margaret Atwood) of the responses in such a situation and when the situation is reversed: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." You tend to smile because you don't want the situation to escalate. TBH, I think it fits in well with the rest of the discussion I've read here - from Spike/Xander breaking convention by intruding on Buffy's privacy to Buffy fighting back when Spike attacks her. We're not all equipped to do the latter.
What you say is true but when her boyfriend and his buddies are being beaten up you think her expression might change.
Tbh I think its probably just down to sloppy direction (Warren somehow gets his jacket back for the gun scene) than a meta commentary on Margaret Atwood.
 

Cheese Slices

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I think Seeing Red is a very strong episode (one of the strongest of the show, imo), and I'm not that bothered by the Willow/Tara stuff, contrived though it may be, because I have a more "glass half full" approach about it. Tara was always going to die (iirc, she was supposed to be gone in S5, but Whedon delayed it). Knowing that, I'd rather she died after reconnecting with Willow and have her last moments be blissful; thus I see it as more of a kindness from the writers, because, unfortunately, people rarely get that irl.
As @WillowFromBuffy stated, the direction for the episode is strong, and the character beats and the performances quite outstanding. The two-beats Buffy/Xander interactions work great and is very IC for both of them (as frustrating as Xander can be in the first scene).
Overall it really does feel like the culmination of everything that's happened in the season and the tension and escalation are extremely well done.
 

darkspook

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It's appropriate yes, but again, I feel you're having a discussion from a Doylist perspective (i.e. it made sense for the writers to script the characters these way) whereas I was talking about the scene from a purely Watsonian POV. I wasn't critiquing the writing, I was critiquing the characters for being jerks who invade Buffy's privacy.
I tend to think all the characters were jerks on that season. Buffy fooled around with Spike infront of Xander in 'Gone' showing him no respect what so ever.
 

Faded90

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That Buffy/Warren fight must be the worst in the entire show. It’s so slow and blah, I don’t feel any tension whatsoever

This is the episode where it’s obvious story planning in S6 appears to simply be ‘so what misery can we inflict on each character?’ . Buffy going patrolling and getting injured, then nearly getting raped then having to get changed and act like nothings happened to take down Warren who gets away, then she comes home does a bit of gardening and gets shot. Like come on now
 

r2dh2

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I tend to think all the characters were jerks on that season. Buffy fooled around with Spike infront of Xander in 'Gone' showing him no respect what so ever.
I’m going to make an honest question: why do you think that Buffy is showing disrespect to Xander in “Gone”? She’s invisible, he clearly doesn’t even think that she might be around when he goes looking for Spike… I *see* no harm in that, it actually is a very powerful scene IMO. Buffy feels finally free to seek Spike herself because her friends (and by that, Xander most of the time) are quiet vocal about her life.

One of the things that I dislike about Xander S1-S6 is the way he judges and interferes with Buffy’s life. Whoever Buffy chooses to sleep with or not is none of his business (even if his heart is in the right place). And one of the *very* few things that I like about Seeing Red is Xander finally understanding that he might alienate his friends with that attitude (analogous to what he does in Revelations/Amends, by first openly confronting Buffy about Angel, and then apologizing and helping research what’s going on with him). And I think that the mutual understanding that they reach by the end of this episode helps them build a much healthier friendship in S7.
 

thetopher

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The episode has some strong points; the characterization is strong, its well shot and put together, we finally get some forward momentum of the plot, and the Willow/Tara stuff feels nice 'hey, this is the episode where some people finally get to be a bit happy'.
There's a sense of some of the characters moving closer and getting past all the secrecy. I really do enjoy that Buffy and Xander are actually communicating honestly and being in character as well.

A couple of lil' things I enjoyed:
- Buffy dodging the buzzsaw deathtrap. Fun
- Jonathan betraying Warren by telling Buffy how to beat him.
- Andrew's incompetence failed escape attempt with his jetpack.


On the bad side the Trio really are a completely dud by now; the Buffy/Warren fight suffers from some of the worst fight choreography (how come a big 'strength/toughness guy' suddenly knows how to not only fight well, but take on a slayer who is a veteran fighter?) and cringe dialogue- mostly from Warren (apart from the 'Say Goodnight bitch.' Comeback. I will take crumbs of wit at this point.).
Weirdly I also don't like Dawn going to visit Spike and admonish him because is that really any of her business? If Xander doesn't get to judge then why does she? And of course we know where the conclusion of that scene leads.

So, an average Buffy episode overall but one of the better S6 offerings.
 
T
thrasherpix
Gods yes I love the buzzsaw scene, and Buffy's reaction after it rips her jacket. :-D Also didn't care for Dawn butting in, though it's nice to see that Dawn does care deeply for Buffy, something she often forgets to show.

thrasherpix

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I did have to headcanon Warren as having a demonic essence in him that gives him an edge (similar to a newly awakened Slayer), but also that there was some innate armor (perhaps the skin and muscles became very strong). It doesn't take much strength to collapse a windpipe (and even less to slit a throat or other vein or artery--though none of this will do too much to a vampire, but Warren is still a mortal, just with super strength as far as we're shown), and I've personally dropped a jock much bigger than me to his knees (him shrieking like a baby begging me to let go) by bending a finger of his backwards, though I wouldn't have stood a chance against him at arm wrestling, and he stood a chance at knocking me out in one punch if he'd tried.

I do understand some people's frustration in shows and movies constantly showing the tiny woman who has the strength of a 300 pound bodybuilder (unless she's bionic, enhanced by some mystical force like say a Slayer or Jedi, etc, and of course comedy and cartoons & anime that emphasize fun get a pass), but there are a lot more factors involved, and might get fewer eye rolls if they showed them. (I remember a women's self-defense course I went to, I never realized what good backup weapons that crutches could make by a woman with a broken leg or hip against a man attacking her!)
 
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I tend to think all the characters were jerks on that season. Buffy fooled around with Spike infront of Xander in 'Gone' showing him no respect what so ever.
Xander walks in on her and Spike having sex. She nibbles Spike's ear while Xander is talking to him. She hardly 'shows him no respect whatsoever'. She's teasing Spike not Xander. Xander should learn how to knock and stop barging into people's homes.
It's not Buffy's responsibility to 'show respect' to the person who just barged in on her.
 

thrasherpix

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I just watched the scene of Buffy fighting a super powered Warren, and many of Buffy fighting Glory. Gotta say Buffy's heart just wasn't as much into the fighting of Warren. (Though there are reasons for that.)
 
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