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Shanshu: Angel and Spike

AstridDante

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All things been equal and with no outside influences, would Angel or Spike have given up vampirism to live a human life with Buffy ( marriage, children etc). I know we got that glimpse of Angel being human in IWRY. I could see Angel giving up vampirism to live a human life quicker than Spike, I think Spike even though he loves Buffy just as much as Angel, likes being a vampire too much.
 

CHK DeWilSon

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Wasn’t Angel mystically drawn to it as well?
Yes Angel was drawn to it while searching for something else so he took it even though it wasn't what he had gone to find.

I guess the situation between Angel and Spike is like Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom which I had read somewhere in that because of their similar situations it could be deem to be about either one of them but ultimately it IS about Angel because of the circumstances surrounding him and that Wolfram and Hart chose Angel.

And from my perspective of both their characters, Angel WANTS to become human again even if he doesn't believe he'll ever deserve it however I don't feel that it is Spike's goal as he is ok with the person he has become with his soul.
 

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Yes Angel was drawn to it while searching for something else so he took it even though it wasn't what he had gone to find.

I guess the situation between Angel and Spike is like Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom which I had read somewhere in that because of their similar situations it could be deem to be about either one of them but ultimately it IS about Angel because of the circumstances surrounding him and that Wolfram and Hart chose Angel.

And from my perspective of both their characters, Angel WANTS to become human again even if he doesn't believe he'll ever deserve it however I don't feel that it is Spike's goal as he is ok with the person he has become with his soul.
I completely agree with this. Circumstances are important, even in prophecies. The Pergamum Codex didn't say Buffy would die, but the Slayer, and it could've been someone else, but because she was the one who moved there, she kickstarted it being her. For that reason, I believe that the Shanshu is about Angel, but that there exists another universe where it's about Spike. I like your Harry Potter example.

Also agree that Spike wouldn't want to become human while for Angel, it's sometimes the only motivation when he's feeling down and hopeless.
 

katmobile

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I think it's based on two things one the use of the definitive article - the - that implies singular one. Prophecy literally didn't see an ensouled Spike coming.

The second is the reason behind that - is that there is a kind of inevitability about the icumstances behind Angel's ensoulement - Romany tribe in the vicinity of Dracula have a powerful spell to ensure vampires leave them alone or else they use, foreign vampire has no awareness of it and screws with them big time, so they use it.....boom!

Spike's circumstances and personality traits that led to his were far less predictable and much further in the future. It seems more plausible to me prophecy wouldn't see an ensouled version of him coming.
 
TriBel
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Yeah...I can go with that in real world terms (i.e. without the allusion to spells).
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I think it's about the vampire with a soul. That was Angel and it seemed like it must be him - but then Spike got one too - hence why there was a tear in the universe because now it could be either (if that wasn't true then Destiny wouldn't happen. Lindsey creates the tear to happen by recorporealising Spike and has a trick already set up because he knew what would happen , but the tear itself is real - he doesn't have the power to remove the conduit and separate W&H from the Senior Partners The prophecy didn't care which one was the right one. Remember it is only one passage in a much larger prophecy, and is written in an ancient language - so presumably predates both of the vampires and the restoration of their souls. It isn't referencing a specific vampire in the sense that it has skin in the game and cares which it is, it's just the person who wrote the prophecy foresaw a vampire with a soul becoming human and so wrote that down. They didn't stop to consider there might be 2 or 25 vampires with souls, they just saw vampire with soul becomes human and wrote it.
I think Angel signed his right away to it so it became about Spike. And therefore had always been about Spike, it's just the universe didn't know it at the time. Prophecy not being an exact science and all.
I agree circumstances are important surrounding prophecy, but as of the end of s5 it looked like the circumstances were pointing squarely at Spike. I'm not saying I agree that's the way it 'should' be if there was meaning or justice to it and I think a headcanon that signing it away was a test but wasn't actually valid and meant nothing, while not actually supported in the text of the show, is a valid one to hold.
But going by what is in the show and nothing else, it is about Spike.
 

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As big of a moment as it is in the finale when Angel signs that parchment, I don't buy that you can really sign away your role in an ancient prophecy. The piece of paper isn't the actual prophecy, it's just the written down evidence of some vision that someone had eons ago. It's written in stone, whichever vampire it is, and nothing is going to change that.
 

Faded90

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As big of a moment as it is in the finale when Angel signs that parchment, I don't buy that you can really sign away your role in an ancient prophecy. The piece of paper isn't the actual prophecy, it's just the written down evidence of some vision that someone had eons ago. It's written in stone, whichever vampire it is, and nothing is going to change that.
Is it even Wolfram and Harts prophecy to ‘cancel’? (At least for Angel anyway). My headcanon see’s it as them just trying to call his bluff

Like could Buffy have signed a prophecy revoke in Prophecy Girl to say ‘sorry I’m not going to die in this one. Buffy Summers’
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Yeah, my understanding of Pacts with the Devil is that the Devil can't outright buy your soul, but the awful things that you will have to do keep your side of the bargain can damn it. And if nothing else, the Powers probably have lawyers too. But I think the more important thing is, the Story of the Vampire who will live and die again is a real thing, and not something Jasmine made up.
 

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Is it even Wolfram and Harts prophecy to ‘cancel’? (At least for Angel anyway). My headcanon see’s it as them just trying to call his bluff
That’s also how I see it. Was just a way for them to test Angel’s loyalty. It was probably a fake prophecy that he signed
 

Moggin

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I think this is an interesting question. If I'm going solely by my own feelings, on who wears human better and who wears being a vampire better, then I'd say Spike was built for vampire life, and I can imagine Angel as a regular human still doing good far more easily than I can Spike. Angel, in spite of his early days and a penchant for brooding, has a regular guy vibe that I think he could integrate easily back into human life. Spike, by contrast, has a tragic darkness to him, in spite of his plucky attitude, which pairs nicely with being a vampire. No matter how he was as William, as Spike, he's naturally a badass with an edge. The vampirism can only enhance this.

That being said, I think Spike's edge, in part, comes from a constant realization of what he has lost. William was a very good man. If Drusilla had never turned him, he would have eventually died with his soul intact and shuffled off to the good place with the rest of his family. Now that he is has over a hundred years of evil to his discredit, he's only fit for one place, hell. To Spike, this matters a lot, I think, and given the option, he would gladly undo what he has done.

Angel, by contrast, started out human life as a dissolute scallywag, who even his own family had doubts about where he would end up. Being a vampire made his situation worse, but I don't think Liam ever thought he was going to heaven as a human, let alone a vampire. With this in mind, I don't think being human again holds quite the same value for him as it does for Spike.

With regards to Buffy, I think Angel, because of his human past, has found purpose in being a vampire that he can't ignore for her. I may not think Angel is as well built for the vampire life as Spike, but I think vampirism has created more purpose for Angel than it ever did for Spike. Spike got an attitude adjustment on becoming a vampire, which he needed, but it didn't give him a calling. Buffy may have been the conduit directing Angel to find his purpose, but she is not his purpose alone. In fact, I'd say if he were to give up saving people as a vampire, purely to be with Buffy, then this would just be another selfish Liam act.

Spike, again by contrast, was a very selfless person as a human, so he loses nothing by devoting himself solely to Buffy. If anything, Buffy is his purpose, because whether as William or Spike, he has been looking for someone to love devotedly. Cecily never reciprocated. Drusilla couldn't stay faithful to him and pushed him away. Buffy, though, is worthy of his affections and, though the relationship is complex, does return those feelings. If he were to become human again, for Buffy, no matter how much his own persona might be reduced as a result, I think he would feel as though he had fulfilled his purpose.
 
BuffyBot22
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I love this.

thetopher

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Which vampire narrative lends itself more to the idea of destiny? Separate from the Shanshu question Whistler (an agent of the PtB) said that Angel was 'destined' to stop the raising of Acathla, an ancient all-powerful demon.
Angel was pulled out of hell by higher powers and targeted by the First Evil.

After his time with Buffy Angel ended up in LA where he was still fighting evil; he had a base of operations, an arsenal of weapons and the drive to help and save innocent lives lives night after night. Then he was sought out and guided by a seer of the higher powers; Doyle and then Cordelia.

Spike, after his time with Buffy, ended up in LA and spent his time hanging around strip clubs. He was sought out by a fake seer (with his own designs on Angel), was badgered into considering the very idea of doing good just for the sake of it (rather than because Buffy was watching) and was given a place to stay along with everything else.

So, not a hard question really.
 

Faded90

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Which vampire narrative lends itself more to the idea of destiny? Separate from the Shanshu question Whistler (an agent of the PtB) said that Angel was 'destined' to stop the raising of Acathla, an ancient all-powerful demon.
Angel was pulled out of hell by higher powers and targeted by the First Evil.

After his time with Buffy Angel ended up in LA where he was still fighting evil; he had a base of operations, an arsenal of weapons and the drive to help and save innocent lives lives night after night. Then he was sought out and guided by a seer of the higher powers; Doyle and then Cordelia.

Spike, after his time with Buffy, ended up in LA and spent his time hanging around strip clubs. He was sought out by a fake seer (with his own designs on Angel), was badgered into considering the very idea of doing good just for the sake of it (rather than because Buffy was watching) and was given a place to stay along with everything else.

So, not a hard question really.
There’s multiple differences as well showing the differences in their selfishness/selflessness. Angel leaves but had clearly by Harsh Light of Day told Buffy where he was living and always made a point of saying he’s there if she ever needs help

Spike comes back and decides he’s not going to tell Buffy he’s back as he might then be less of a hero to her. This is Buffy, the woman he professes to completely love and care about and yet he still values his own ego above her feelings and the possibility she may be grieving him

As well as him deciding he wants the Shanshu is largely an ego thing so Angel can’t have it. Even including the comics he’s never shown to have his own destiny or path, he just hops onto Buffy or Angel’s
 
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Moggin

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There’s multiple differences as well showing the differences in their selfishness/selflessness. Angel leaves but had clearly by Harsh Light of Day told Buffy where he was living and always made a point of saying he’s there if she ever needs help

Spike comes back and decides he’s not going to tell Buffy he’s back as he might then be less of a hero to her. This is Buffy, the woman he professes to completely love and care about and yet he still values his own ego above her feelings and the possibility she may be grieving him

As well as him deciding he wants the Shanshu is largely an ego thing so Angel can’t have it. Even including the comics he’s never shown to have his own destiny or path, he just hops onto Buffy or Angel’s
Hold on a minute, one could just as easily interpret Angel's constant connection with Buffy as personal selfishness. He stays out of her life just enough to make her miserable and miss his companionship, but insinuates himself into her life anytime it looks like she's moving on.

Spike wrestles with the idea of seeking Buffy out many times. In fact, it's the first thing he tries to do once he's corporealized, and the first person he asks about once he is released from the amulet. It does show him nixing the idea, but part of it is the notion that he would just mess things up for her/he doesn't know how to approach the situation.

As for the Lindsey situation, he had no reason to believe this random guy was doing anything but using him. Spike complies a bit, but the first chance he gets to test the validity of Lindsey's visions, he does, and promptly dumps him.

Spike clearly doesn't have a problem being a good guy saving people. He did so with Buffy many times, watched Dawn for Buffy's sake, even as a vampire, and after being re-ensouled, made the ultimate sacrifice. Plus, he does choose to help Angel, and let's remember, he's making this decision much sooner than Angel did. Neither Angel nor Spike hit upon the idea of being a champion alone. Both of them were led to this life. Whistler led Angel. Angel and Buffy led Spike.
 

thetopher

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There’s multiple differences as well showing the differences in their selfishness/selflessness. Angel leaves but had clearly by Harsh Light of Day told Buffy where he was living and always made a point of saying he’s there if she ever needs help

Spike comes back and decides he’s not going to tell Buffy he’s back as he might then be less of a hero to her. This is Buffy, the woman he professes to completely love and care about and yet he still values his own ego above her feelings and the possibility she may be grieving him
I'm not exactly trying to make this about Buffy, the Shanshu thing is different from that. Shanshu seems to be about becoming a champion on your own terms and fighting for the good, not the girl.

As well as him deciding he wants the Shanshu is largely an ego thing so Angel can’t have it.
We cannot question why a champion becomes what he is destined to be. Maybe he becomes it solely to rub another champion's nose in the fact that he was putting it to their ex. /sarc

Even including the comics he’s never shown to have his own destiny or path, he just hops onto Buffy or Angel’s
To be fair to Spike in Angel:AtF his is written as a hero in his own right who is helping as best he can in his way. But when he returns in Buffy S8, sure I'd agree with that.

Hold on a minute, one could just as easily interpret Angel's constant connection with Buffy as personal selfishness.
Not easily, but sure you can interpret anything as anything I guess.

He stays out of her life just enough to make her miserable and miss his companionship, but insinuates himself into her life anytime it looks like she's moving on.
How did Angel interfere with Buffy and Parker's relationship? That was when Buffy tried to move on.
He took pains to stay in the shadows during Pangs, one might think he was being an ass about it but he was trying to help in as unobtrusive way as possible.

I mean, later he beat up Riley I guess but I wouldn't characterize the events of 'The Yoko Factor' 'trying to make Buffy miserabl'e, Angel was trying to apologize, messed it up and then left town again. He never saw Buffy again until Riley was well out of the picture.

In fact how did Angel interfere with the whole Spuffy mess? He only became aware of it by the end of S7, he and Buffy had one conversation and then he left her.

Angel is not the cause of any of Buffy's misery in S5-7. Spike is the cause of a great deal of it.

Spike wrestles with the idea of seeking Buffy out many times. In fact, it's the first thing he tries to do once he's corporealized
The first thing Spike tries to do is Harmony, actually. :p

As for the Lindsey situation, he had no reason to believe this random guy was doing anything but using him. Spike complies a bit, but the first chance he gets to test the validity of Lindsey's visions, he does, and promptly dumps him.
The such a radical misinterpretation; Spike got played by Lindsey. He straight up admits it after the fact. But before that he was very much buying into Lindsey's ploy, though Lindsey's 'fake Doyle' had to do a hell of a lot more than actual Doyle.

Spike clearly doesn't have a problem being a good guy saving people. He did so with Buffy many times
That isn't really the question, but what about some kind of heroism away from Buffy. Angel showed that from the start, Spike spent a long time being a complete ass, and only became a 'champion' because he was manipulated into it as part of an evil scheme.
Spike only seems to do good for his own reasons post 'You're Welcome' really.
 

Moggin

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How did Angel interfere with Buffy and Parker's relationship? That was when Buffy tried to move on.
Quite simply, Angel didn't know about Parker.

He took pains to stay in the shadows during Pangs, one might think he was being an ass about it but he was trying to help in as unobtrusive way as possible.
Yet, he lets everyone else close to her know about his presence, enough that it realistically would have been impossible to keep it under wraps. Plus, he could see her, but she couldn't see him. The unfairness of this situation is not lost on Buffy, as she confronts him about in LA.

I mean, later he beat up Riley I guess but I wouldn't characterize the events of 'The Yoko Factor' 'trying to make Buffy miserabl'e, Angel was trying to apologize, messed it up and then left town again. He never saw Buffy again until Riley was well out of the picture.
Again, even Buffy calls him out on his behavior in this episode. He was out of line, largely because he saw a capable human rival, but this isn't specifically what I mean by Angel making Buffy's life miserable. It is, however, a part of it.

In fact how did Angel interfere with the whole Spuffy mess? He only became aware of it by the end of S7, he and Buffy had one conversation and then he left her.
Angel can't interfere with what he doesn't know. He did know about Riley. He didn't know about Spike, as you say, until the end of season 7. Once he did know, though, he acted like an ass again. You say he left it alone, but did he? Buffy reasoned that he needed to be her second front if hell broke loose. I think this made sense to Angel. Moreover, Buffy gave a non-committal answer about Spike, and left Angel just enough hope for him to leave happily. I don't think he believed Spike had much of a chance.

Angel is not the cause of any of Buffy's misery in S5-7. Spike is the cause of a great deal of it.
Angel isn't the cause of Buffy's misery in seasons 5-7, but he did account for a lot of her misery is 1-4. Moreover, the causes of Buffy's misery in each of the last seasons stand thus: 5) Joyce's death/protecting Dawn, 6) being resurrected from heaven and feeling disconnected, 7) having the burden of stopping all hell from breaking loose, plus the protection of a bunch of young girls.

Even if you could argue that Spike was responsible for some of Buffy's misery in season 6, he wasn't all of it, and there is a large part of it where he is giving her some kind of solace. Remember, she almost committed suicide atop the tower. If she had not found a confidante in Spike, she may have tried again, more successfully. It was clearly a depression she couldn't share with the regular gang.

The first thing Spike tries to do is Harmony, actually. :p
LOL, yes he does. To me, after all that was said in season 7 of Buffy, this is the biggest character shift, and a difficult one the writers have to explain. If I accept it at face value, though, he does start toward Italy right after this, only to realize it's a damned awkward thing to explain. Let's also count how many times Angel monkeyed around, and though it's unworthy of him, Spike is more or less using Harmony as a release, rather than having genuine affection for her. Again, not the best translation from one show to the next, but still a salvageable point.

The such a radical misinterpretation; Spike got played by Lindsey. He straight up admits it after the fact. But before that he was very much buying into Lindsey's ploy, though Lindsey's 'fake Doyle' had to do a hell of a lot more than actual Doyle.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. If he accepted the role as champion, then he was doing good. If he suspected that he was being played, then, again, he was still doing good. I am inclined to believe the latter, because he did do a taste test on Cordelia. It wasn't just him covering for his ego later. Just because he liked the idea of being a champion doesn't mean he bought the whole story, just that, on some level, it appealed to him.

That isn't really the question, but what about some kind of heroism away from Buffy. Angel showed that from the start, Spike spent a long time being a complete ass, and only became a 'champion' because he was manipulated into it as part of an evil scheme.
Spike only seems to do good for his own reasons post 'You're Welcome' really.
Again, Angel did not show this from the start. He spent the better part of 100 years struggling just to exist without causing harm, and still had trouble with the new lifestyle. Remember the diner in the 70s? Remember the woman with the men in the street in the 1890's? Remember him reconnecting with Darla and trying to make it work as part of the group, simply because he was lonely? It was a long struggle for Angel, and, in the end, it was Whistler who showed him an alternate path. I put to you, why is Buffy or Angel showing Spike a better path any different than Whistler showing this to Angel?

Spike did choose to do good on his own. Yes, he watched over Dawn for Buffy's sake, but he never had any expectations of her being resurrected. He had no hope of being rewarded for this. This was all on him. Also, he helped the Scoobies, who he loathed, simply because it was what Buffy would have wanted. Again, there was no hope of reward for this. Just because Spike carries on in Buffy's memory doesn't make his decision any less worthy than Angel adopting the lifestyle because he sees a vulnerable pretty girl with a great burden.

After getting a soul, Spike continued to help Buffy. Yes, this was with Buffy, but his ultimate sacrifice at the end was, again, without the hope of ever being rewarded for his efforts. He literally just wanted to save the world. You can't enjoy bonus points with your ex if you're dead.

As for his stint on Angel, Spike did choose to help. It isn't like the series ended with him refusing to help anyone. There is a great deal of introspection Spike goes through with regards to the evil he has done as a vampire. Remember the bit with his hands being chipped off? How about helping Angel with the necromancer? How about saving the baby from the ritual? Spike does choose to do good without Buffy. Why should it matter that he happens to be doing this with Angel? The result is the same. He's still choosing to do good.
 
NileQT87
NileQT87
You're incorrect about Angel not knowing about Parker. Spike rubbed Angel's face in Buffy moving on to "the very first lunkhead who came along" and revels in her hurt in In the Dark. Angel replies that "she's cuter when she's kicking [Spike's] ass."

thetopher

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Quite simply, Angel didn't know about Parker.
Oh, okay.

Yet, he lets everyone else close to her know about his presence
Actually he only deliberately told Giles, everyone else found out on accident. Again, this is about what Angel was trying to do, not about what happened. There's a difference.

Plus, he could see her, but she couldn't see him. The unfairness of this situation is not lost on Buffy, as she confronts him about in LA.
Fairness isn't the issue. I agree that its unfair. But he's deliberately trying to be an unobtrusive presence when he feels he has to 'interfere' which contradicts your assertion that Angel is making Buffy feel miserable by turning up in her life as much as he can.

Angel can't interfere with what he doesn't know.
Right, but you early posted this:
He stays out of her life just enough to make her miserable and miss his companionship, but insinuates himself into her life anytime it looks like she's moving on.
Which is my bone of contention.
Angel interferes when Buffy tries to move on...but only when he knows about it, and he doesn't know about it in the vast majority of the cases, so really it isn't true at all then is it?
Parker? No. Nurse-Ben? No. Spike? No. Riley? Barely. 'The Yoko Factor' was not Angel's attempt to break up Briley, its him fumbling a genuine attempt to apologize to Buffy. She accepts, they share a laugh and then he leaves. He doesn't see her again for about a year.

Seems like an unfair characterization.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. If he accepted the role as champion, then he was doing good.
But if you're aiding some jerk in an evil scheme can it really be called 'doing good'? We don't know how many of Lindsey's missions were set-ups or nonsense, we do know some of them where to targeted at Angel.
For the record I think Spike in AtS S5 is perfectly in keeping with what we see of his character previously.

Again, Angel did not show this from the start.
I never said he did, I'm comparing Angel and Spike from their 'post-Buffy' starting point, which seems fair because we are talking about the whole Shanshu destiny thing.
Angel, when Buffy was not around, did good on his own before any outside party started guiding him. Spike-with a soul, when Buffy wasn't around, didn't do good. To me it's that simple when we're talking about some champion worthy of a prophecy.
 

Moggin

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Actually he only deliberately told Giles, everyone else found out on accident. Again, this is about what Angel was trying to do, not about what happened. There's a difference.
My point is that there were other ways to help, yet he chose the exact way that was likely to do damage to Buffy. This isn't a contradiction at all.

Fairness isn't the issue. I agree that its unfair. But he's deliberately trying to be an unobtrusive presence when he feels he has to 'interfere' which contradicts your assertion that Angel is making Buffy feel miserable by turning up in her life as much as he can.
See the above.

Which is my bone of contention.
Angel interferes when Buffy tries to move on...but only when he knows about it, and he doesn't know about it in the vast majority of the cases, so really it isn't true at all then is it?
Lol, that's the very definition of deliberately interfering. How can you interfere with what you don't know? Yet, any time Angel does know, he does interfere. I couldn't say this if Angel did know some of the time, yet chose to stay out of her business, but his jerk behavior happens every time he catches wind of her moving on. Just because he doesn't catch wind of this often is neither here nor there. Every time he does, he consistently acts like a jerk.


'The Yoko Factor' was not Angel's attempt to break up Briley, its him fumbling a genuine attempt to apologize to Buffy. She accepts, they share a laugh and then he leaves. He doesn't see her again for about a year.

Seems like an unfair characterization.
I disagree wholeheartedly. His entire attitude is less than generous with Riley, and there were better ways to mediate the situation with the new boyfriend He wanted to have an excuse to rough up the new guy. It may not have been what his original intent was, but it was certainly a bonus, and Buffy doesn't just laugh it off like some joke. She does say that he can't keep doing this to her. In the end, she does share a laugh, but it isn't like her whole mood was jovial. She was originally annoyed, and duly so.

But if you're aiding some jerk in an evil scheme can it really be called 'doing good'? We don't know how many of Lindsey's missions were set-ups or nonsense, we do know some of them where to targeted at Angel.
Yeah, it does still count, because it wasn't like he was killing innocent people at Lindsey's behest. The work he was doing was still good work, saving people. Never mind that they may have been set up. How was Spike to know for sure that they weren't in real need? He seems to have had an inkling it wasn't genuine, but as soon as he got a chance to test that theory, he did.

I never said he did, I'm comparing Angel and Spike from their 'post-Buffy' starting point, [. . . ] Spike-with a soul, when Buffy wasn't around, didn't do good. To me it's that simple when we're talking about some champion worthy of a prophecy.
Again, see the above. I've already pointed out times he did good without Buffy being around, even post-soul, and I'll repeat, even if Angel was always around while Spike was doing good, how was that any different than Buffy always being around when Angel did good in seasons 1-3? Spike has had a lot less time to get used to doing this, yet he still accepts it.
 

ILLYRIAN

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Once again here is that thing about the soul again. As far as I'm concerned people do not have a soul, when 'he' lets you into his heaven, the gift he gives you is a soul.
If you front up at the Pearly gates with a soul he has not given you - look down.
How many people are in prison around the world for having killed a person, did they have a soul?
When you die and are buried in a graveyard at a church, the body stays in the grave so does the spirit go to heaven and if so is the soul part of the spirit?
So there you have it, if the ShanShu is for the vampire with a soul, by my reckoning the ShanShu is a trap.
 
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