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She deserved it

NeonSlayer

Potential
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
457
Age
32
Forgot to add on Supernatural it was the Big Bad who dug up the angel & demon tablets which led to the good guys knowing about, getting ahold of, & trying to use the tablets against the bad guys.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
7,160
Age
29
They didn't have the scythe on display, the bottom was still stuck in rock. Buffy had to King Arthur it out. Caleb didn't know Buffy would be able to just lift it up.
But they still dug it out enough for her just to be able to lift it. They didn't leave it encased in rock where she couldn't get at it.

Considering in Dirty Girls (the same month as the finale), a Potential arrived in Sunnydale and there was a possibility Caleb could've had another held hostage, I don't think we were supposed to believe the ones in the house were 100% all that was left.
I think it was Giles who said something along the lines of there were only a few potentials left and they were all heading to Buffy's house. Of course there were probably still some potentials that hadn't made the trip but the activation spell made it seem like there were lots of potentials left in the world that got activated, not just the ones shown on the montage, which contradicted what Giles said earlier.

The FE wouldn't have killed Buffy or Faith until all the Potentials were killed. In End of Days It didn't want Buffy dead until she had the scythe.
The scythe it so helpfully had dug out for her.

Adam & Spike's original goal was to divide & conquer but then they realized they needed the Scoobies working together for the bigger plan to work, hence Spike hinting to Buffy in the caves so she'd realize he was behind Willow, Giles, & Xander suddenly acting crazy bitter.
I don't think Spike "hinted" to Buffy, I think he overstretched by letting a piece of information slip that he shouldn't have known which made Buffy realise he may have had something to do with the big scooby fallout. They divided Buffy and Willow but then realised they needed Willow to give Buffy the information on the discs and it was Spike trying to do that which made Buffy suspicious because he shouldn't have known they'd fallen out.

Forgot to add on Supernatural it was the Big Bad who dug up the angel & demon tablets which led to the good guys knowing about, getting ahold of, & trying to use the tablets against the bad guys.
Clearly Supernatural's big bad and The First attended the same school of villainy.
 

NeonSlayer

Potential
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
457
Age
32
When I mentioned the love spell I meant in Him and not in Help. I think Buffy had to have been thinking, "One month before we found out about the trigger, I told Dawn no man is worth her life not ever even though I was under a powerful love spell making me obsessed with him. Under the right conditions, I could be **** that guy you're more important. So the power of the mind is stronger than magic tricks." All it ended up taking to remove the trigger was Spike forgiving himself for staking his mom.

Don't insult Crowley! 😈

Were any of the Buffyverse villains that smart? Wolfram & Hart resurrected Angel's sire even though he stayed away from Darla for 97 years, chose not to rule by her side in the Master's court, and staked her. And that was when he should've been the most susceptible since he wasn't a convertible driving hotel owning PTB Champion with lots of friends. Wolfram & Hart handed all of the leadership positions of the company over to AI. That one demon whose name I'm not going to look up heard a prophecy that Angel's son would be who kills him so brought a hunter from last millennium to present day and Holtz ended up taking Connor to another dimension where time worked differently so when he came back a few months later he was a skilled hunter who had been killing demons his whole life, making it so much easier for Connor to kill that demon 2 years later.

Holtz was the only villain I thought set out a goal and accomplished it brilliantly. Even getting Connor back, Angel's relationship with him would never be what it could've and he'll still have to live knowing his sins as Angelus led to his child raised without him in a Hell dimension.

In The Long Way Home, Buffy said they counted 1800 Slayers and that issue took place 1 1/2 years after Chosen. And the spell didn't activate a Potential until it thought she was ready to be activated since in Harmonic Divergence a 16 year old Potential was activated into a Slayer that issue. I think less than 2,000 Potentials out of a population of in 2003 almost 6.4 billion humans is very few.

I would've written Chosen differently but I don't agree with it getting so much flack when AtS ends with the AI team spending 10 months trying to turn an evil law firm good and then Cordelia dies and her ghost goes corporeal just long enough to give Angel a vision that leads to AI trying to take down WR&H in a plan that led to Lindsay being executed when he was actively helping, Wesley killed, and in the comics covering the fallout; Gunn temporarily becoming an evil vampire, the entire city of Los Angeles trapped in Hell, Angel being turned human against his will and having to fight without superpowers for months, and Angel committing suicide (not knowing he was going to be regenerated) to undo the mess they'd made.
 

Izzie

Townie
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
22
Age
42
I might possibly agree that Buffy's plan about returning to the vineyard was bad if we ever did get to know the details of it, but we never did. "We're going back in," gives no details and no strategy whatsoever. It doesn't even necessarily mean that she ever had any intention of having the Potentials deal with Caleb again, since he was actually in the wine cellar, not the actual vineyard itself. I can imagine quite a few scenarios in which the Potentials would be at the vineyard, and never even come close to the wine cellar, beginning with, Buffy, Faith, and Spike taking on Caleb while the ubervamps are led into a trap elsewhere.

I can understand why the Potentials would feel frightened and discouraged after what had happened on what was their first combat experience. Some of them were injured, others had died, and Xander was maimed for life. The world in which they had been thrown into was scary dangerous, and they had just seen first hand a perfect example of the worst case scenario. These were children, and they didn't want to die. Who could possibly blame them?

Maybe someone who had been confronted with a similar choice when she had gone to meet the Master, knowing that she was going to die trying to stop him, but also knowing that, if she didn't go, others would die in her place.

Or maybe someone who had given their life to protect her sister, when a far simpler strategy would have been to kill her before Glory could use her to destroy the world, despite the fact that her friend, mentor, and father figure had more or less proposed that very thing.

And, as for whether Buffy was thrown out, or she left voluntarily, have we lost sight of the simple fact that they, the Potentials, the Scoobies, Giles, Wood, and even Dawn, were guests, and mostly uninvited guests, at that, in a house that she owned? They were free to leave at any time, but forcing, or even allowing, Buffy to leave her own home was wrong in every single way. Not even Dawn had that right, any more than I would have had the right to throw my parents out when I was 15, just because I didn't like how they were running the house. By that time, Sunnydale was full of abandoned homes, some of which would have almost certainly been more comfortable and better suited to accommodate a large number of occupants. They should have been the ones leaving, not Buffy.

Buffy was never portrayed as the perfect leader, or even, by some standards, even the perfect Slayer, though she was probably the most successful one up to that point. She made mistakes, and she wasn't always the only one to have to pay for those mistakes. That, unfortunately, is the world that she lived in, and the circumstances under which she had no choice but to live. Her life was bad enough without having to be saddled with a bunch of whining, ungrateful Potentials and a Watcher who first insisted that she take responsibility, and then undermined her authority by trying to kill the most powerful fighter on her team.

I think that it says a whole lot about Buffy's character and strength of personality that she came back after getting the Scythe, and I think that it also says a whole lot about the character of the others there that not a single one of them ever even acknowledged that she had been right about believing that there was, in fact, something there in the vineyard worth returning for.
THIS pretty much sums up my thoughts about this particular episode. Well said!

Bingewatching seven seasons for the first time and just finishing the whole series yesterday, and can honestly say that this was the only episode that got me fuming and screamimg at my TV screen "HOW DARE YOU" and thinking about cutting my arm off just so I can have something to throw at the screen.

So many things about the whole "kicking her out" scene made me mad:
Anya's "You didn't earn it" speech - Oh, she did earn it. With seven years of experience she earned it.
Xander's hurt feelings - Ok, so fine yes it's awful that you lost an eye. But what about the many times Buffy saved you?
Willow - Why Willow, why would you turn your back on her at this time?
Giles - My heart breaks
Dawn - Don't even get me started with her
Potentials - I get that you are scared, but what a bunch of ungrateful idiots. You are in HER house. HEEEER house!

I think that watching the series again, I would probably have different opinions about a lot of things, but this episode. I can't see myself ever changing my mind about it and think that Buffy deserved the treatment she got. It was her house. If they don't wanna follow Buffy anymore, then why didn't they leave? Why did she have to leave her own home? I don't get it. Yes, it was dramatic storywise, but in reality it just doesn't make sense. And how many times did Xander and Willow act all hurt that Buffy didn't want them to come with her? Everytime they were whining how she was keeping them in the dark. Well, did it over cross their minds that she was just trying to keep them safe? Apparently not, cause Xander was so quick to put the blame on Buffy for what happened to him this time. This could have happened a loooong time ago to him or Willow or Giles, but it didn't because of Buffy. She saved them over and over, on times when they themselves followed her and put themselves at risk. It was their choice many times, not hers. And yet, not that the worse happens it her fault.

And for them to turn their backs on Buffy, the girl who lead them through battles for seven years, for them to trust Faith of all people at this crusial time..... Like for real? And for Buffy to walk out and still encourage Faith to be a good leader, just speaks volumes. And when she came back and NO ONE even apologized. Are you people kidding me?
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
664
Age
38
The worst thing in this whole situation was Buffy's treatment of Faith. Calling her a murderer etc was really out of order, especially since there were at least 4 other murderers in that room and unlike Faith, not one had done Jail time.
Its interesting to note that Faith's I came to help but not be your lapdog speech is not even in the script.
During her entire S7 run, the writers seemed to think it was perfectly ok for Buffy to smack Faith around and bully her.
Maybe that last minute speech was them realising the issue.
 
K
katmobile
I don't think they did but Buffy and Faith had a LOT of issues and Faith had been given a LOT of chances before she'd blown. Is Buffy fair to her? Probably not but it's at least understandable.
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
705
Black Thorn
As I see it, Buffy knew she was at war this time and she needed an army: the potentials. From my point of view, her terrible decisions were to try and distance herself (emotionally) from her army to actually be able to win.
However, I hate the fact that everyone turned on her when she wanted to go back to the vineyard. It's like they didn't understand that it wasn't a single entity they were battling. I also did not like how she just gave up (obviously done so Spike could give her a pep-talk), Buffy wouldn't usually leave the fate of the world because people told her "no". In my opinion, they had too little time as it was the last season, to develop relationships between the characters further because they should have given at least some more time for tensions to brew between the main characters, as well as let Buffy make mistakes and be able to make up for them.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Not everyone is going to agree with her on what to do.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
664
Age
38
As I see it, Buffy knew she was at war this time and she needed an army: the potentials. From my point of view, her terrible decisions were to try and distance herself (emotionally) from her army to actually be able to win.
However, I hate the fact that everyone turned on her when she wanted to go back to the vineyard. It's like they didn't understand that it wasn't a single entity they were battling. I also did not like how she just gave up (obviously done so Spike could give her a pep-talk), Buffy wouldn't usually leave the fate of the world because people told her "no". In my opinion, they had too little time as it was the last season, to develop relationships between the characters further because they should have given at least some more time for tensions to brew between the main characters, as well as let Buffy make mistakes and be able to make up for them.
From E10 to E15 they had multiple episodes to do that in. Instead they decided to focus on the Potentials that no one cared about.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
well they did try to shove like 30 new characters into a single season. But yes, as you said they should have just left them as characters in the background and focused on developing tension and relationships between the characters.

vampmogs

Townie
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
99
Age
30
My problem with all of it is that it felt incredibly contrived. It's like I could see the puppet strings on the characters forcing them to do or say things that didn't feel organic or right with some incredibly flawed logic and poor plotting making it even worse. For instance, I have a hard time believing that Buffy would fall for Caleb's trap in "Dirty Girls" just because he said he "had something of hers." I mean, honestly, that's Super Villainy 101. If he really did have something of hers (which I'll get to in a moment because... *sigh*) why would he tell her this? So obviously it's a trap and despite everybody pointing out the obvious Buffy stubbornly "went in anyway." I don't believe she'd be this foolish so already I feel like the plot is dictating that Buffy behaves uncharacteristically so that they could have her lose.

Then in "Empty Places" Buffy justifies going back to the vineyard because "the bad guys always go where the power is" Huh? What? Since when? That's not supported at all. The Master was trapped in an underground church, Angelus resided in a mansion, The Mayor presumably had a normal home as well his office, Glory had a fancy apartment, The Trio lived in a basement etc. Arguably Adam is the only one who had a liar that was important to his plan (the Initiative caves) so what is Buffy basing this theory on? Big Bad's have always lived in places completely unrelated to their master plan. Buffy has no reason to make this incredibly tenuous connection at all.

But then, the writers have her proven to be right. For some totally inexplicable reason Caleb really did have something of hers. Caleb foolishly decided to lead Buffy to the vineyard... the very same place where the Scythe was located... the very thing The First/Caleb never wanted Buffy to find. So why on earth would he do this? Why draw attention the vineyard at all? It makes no sense. Why dig the Scythe up and then invite Buffy over so she can reclaim it? *Sigh* None of these characters are behaving remotely logically or sensibly. They're a victim of Season 7's incredibly awful plotting and we're meant to figure out who is right or wrong despite it all being a nonsensical mess.

So what am I meant to think in "Empty Places?" I mean, Buffy did act extremely recklessly in "Dirty Girls" by falling for an incredibly obvious trap. So if I were the Scoobies I really would have lost all faith in her. Yet, despite her seemingly making this tenuous connection out of nowhere and based on no past experience at all, Buffy is right that Caleb is hiding something at the vineyard. But since I don't think Buffy figuring this out is in anyway earned I find it hard to blame the characters for not believing her. I'm not sure how or why Buffy came to this conclusion herself. To make matters worse, when Spike tracks Buffy down in "Touched" one of the first things he says to Buffy is that he believes Buffy was right all along and that "Caleb is protecting something at the vineyard" but Spike wasn't there in "Empty Places" and nobody told him what Buffy's theory was when he returned from his mission, so, how then, did he know this is what Buffy believed? Or that it's what caused the mutiny in the first place? Is he psychic too? *sigh* The writing really is just so incoherent and shoddy at this point. I actually resent that they're putting so little effort into it or that they're getting paid so handsomely to do it for a living. Like, these are basic plot points guys and you can't even keep track of your own timelines or what characters should/should not know. The series deserved so much better.

I would never say that Buffy deserved to be kicked out of her own home. Nobody had any right to do that. They all had the right to stop following her but they should have packed up there things and moved elsewhere. Dawn's line that "it was her house too" sounds like the most absurd and poorly written fanfic imaginable. It's, honestly, such a terrible and silly line. I hate what they did to these characters and these relationships (Buffy's "you sent away the one person whose been watching my back" is her most heinous line in the entire series and such a slap in the face to Willow and Xander) and "Touched" is even worse as they don't spend even one line on Willow and Xander feeling guilty or worrying about Buffy at all or, heck, even thinking about her. It's like they all despise each other. There were ways they could have written this storyline that was true to whom the characters were and without destroying them and their relationships a mere 3 episodes before the finale. I'll never understand what they were thinking during this time and I deeply resent that based on how poorly plotted and incoherent most of this season was, it doesn't even feel deliberate but more a consequence of their lazy and half-assed writing. In "End of Days" they fully expect fans to be over it and act as if the characters are best buddies again despite no acknowledgement of what happened between them at all.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Many solid points about the terribly contrived plan of the First, the awful trap, Spike somehow knowing about the vineyard despite being absent and Buffy's shoddy reasoning.
B
Btvs fan
You're 100% correct on all your points
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Yes! The one word to best describe s7 is "contrived." And don't forget that Caleb even pushed over the barrel for no reason in front of Buffy that revealed the trapdoor down to the Scythe, sheesh. But my favorite was threatening to drown Spike. :-D

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
664
Age
38
My problem with all of it is that it felt incredibly contrived. It's like I could see the puppet strings on the characters forcing them to do or say things that didn't feel organic or right with some incredibly flawed logic and poor plotting making it even worse. For instance, I have a hard time believing that Buffy would fall for Caleb's trap in "Dirty Girls" just because he said he "had something of hers." I mean, honestly, that's Super Villainy 101. If he really did have something of hers (which I'll get to in a moment because... *sigh*) why would he tell her this? So obviously it's a trap and despite everybody pointing out the obvious Buffy stubbornly "went in anyway." I don't believe she'd be this foolish so already I feel like the plot is dictating that Buffy behaves uncharacteristically so that they could have her lose.

Then in "Empty Places" Buffy justifies going back to the vineyard because "the bad guys always go where the power is" Huh? What? Since when? That's not supported at all. The Master was trapped in an underground church, Angelus resided in a mansion, The Mayor presumably had a normal home as well his office, Glory had a fancy apartment, The Trio lived in a basement etc. Arguably Adam is the only one who had a liar that was important to his plan (the Initiative caves) so what is Buffy basing this theory on? Big Bad's have always lived in places completely unrelated to their master plan. Buffy has no reason to make this incredibly tenuous connection at all.

But then, the writers have her proven to be right. For some totally inexplicable reason Caleb really did have something of hers. Caleb foolishly decided to lead Buffy to the vineyard... the very same place where the Scythe was located... the very thing The First/Caleb never wanted Buffy to find. So why on earth would he do this? Why draw attention the vineyard at all? It makes no sense. Why dig the Scythe up and then invite Buffy over so she can reclaim it? *Sigh* None of these characters are behaving remotely logically or sensibly. They're a victim of Season 7's incredibly awful plotting and we're meant to figure out who is right or wrong despite it all being a nonsensical mess.

So what am I meant to think in "Empty Places?" I mean, Buffy did act extremely recklessly in "Dirty Girls" by falling for an incredibly obvious trap. So if I were the Scoobies I really would have lost all faith in her. Yet, despite her seemingly making this tenuous connection out of nowhere and based on no past experience at all, Buffy is right that Caleb is hiding something at the vineyard. But since I don't think Buffy figuring this out is in anyway earned I find it hard to blame the characters for not believing her. I'm not sure how or why Buffy came to this conclusion herself. To make matters worse, when Spike tracks Buffy down in "Touched" one of the first things he says to Buffy is that he believes Buffy was right all along and that "Caleb is protecting something at the vineyard" but Spike wasn't there in "Empty Places" and nobody told him what Buffy's theory was when he returned from his mission, so, how then, did he know this is what Buffy believed? Or that it's what caused the mutiny in the first place? Is he psychic too? *sigh* The writing really is just so incoherent and shoddy at this point. I actually resent that they're putting so little effort into it or that they're getting paid so handsomely to do it for a living. Like, these are basic plot points guys and you can't even keep track of your own timelines or what characters should/should not know. The series deserved so much better.

I would never say that Buffy deserved to be kicked out of her own home. Nobody had any right to do that. They all had the right to stop following her but they should have packed up there things and moved elsewhere. Dawn's line that "it was her house too" sounds like the most absurd and poorly written fanfic imaginable. It's, honestly, such a terrible and silly line. I hate what they did to these characters and these relationships (Buffy's "you sent away the one person whose been watching my back" is her most heinous line in the entire series and such a slap in the face to Willow and Xander) and "Touched" is even worse as they don't spend even one line on Willow and Xander feeling guilty or worrying about Buffy at all or, heck, even thinking about her. It's like they all despise each other. There were ways they could have written this storyline that was true to whom the characters were and without destroying them and their relationships a mere 3 episodes before the finale. I'll never understand what they were thinking during this time and I deeply resent that based on how poorly plotted and incoherent most of this season was, it doesn't even feel deliberate but more a consequence of their lazy and half-assed writing. In "End of Days" they fully expect fans to be over it and act as if the characters are best buddies again despite no acknowledgement of what happened between them at all.
I would go even further. Buffy wins by 3 exmachinas which are all given to her by bad guys
1 ) The scythe which is dug up by Caleb and she knows because as you say the writers decide she does.
2) The Amulet given to her by Angel from Wolfram and Hart. A bad guy from a different show 🤷‍♂️
3) The Slayer Empowerment spell, which the First conveniently shows up to tell her about in Chosen. (Which in E15 had been a rape metaphor and to be frank seemed a bit racist to boot ). I mean there is no way she would've known about in time if the First hadn't shown up.

Not one of those machinas is earned by Buffy yet we as an audience are pretty much told to accept them as such. 🤷‍♂️
 
V
vampmogs
Yeah I feel like the writers backed themselves into a corner without any plans on how to get themselves out of it

vampmogs

Townie
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
99
Age
30
I would go even further. Buffy wins by 3 exmachinas which are all given to her by bad guys
1 ) The scythe which is dug up by Caleb and she knows because as you say the writers decide she does.
2) The Amulet given to her by Angel from Wolfram and Hart. A bad guy from a different show 🤷‍♂️
3) The Slayer Empowerment spell, which the First conveniently shows up to tell her about in Chosen. (Which in E15 had been a rape metaphor and to be frank seemed a bit racist to boot ). I mean there is no way she would've known about in time if the First hadn't shown up.

Not one of those machinas is earned by Buffy yet we as an audience are pretty much told to accept them as such. 🤷‍♂️
And all the characters who don't follow Buffy are punished by walking into a trap (the bomb in "Touched"). It's nice an' all that they have Buffy try and defend Faith in "End of Days" from the, frankly, incredibly ungrateful and flakey Potentials ("I think we were punished. We followed her and..." "It didn't work out" "Guys it's not her fault! It could've just as easily happened to me") but it definitely felt like the writers were in fact punishing the characters for having the audacity to doubt Buffy. I could've been on board with that if Buffy's reasoning made any kind of logical sense but as you say, Buffy only defeats The First this season due to ex machinas and outrageously incompetent villains.

They had no reason to trust her. And as a die-hard Buffy fan, it hurts to say that.

I still think that kicking Buffy out of her own home and showing no remorse or guilt about this at all is still a disgusting and unjust thing to do, though.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
7,160
Age
29
My problem with all of it is that it felt incredibly contrived. It's like I could see the puppet strings on the characters forcing them to do or say things that didn't feel organic or right with some incredibly flawed logic and poor plotting making it even worse. For instance, I have a hard time believing that Buffy would fall for Caleb's trap in "Dirty Girls" just because he said he "had something of hers." I mean, honestly, that's Super Villainy 101. If he really did have something of hers (which I'll get to in a moment because... *sigh*) why would he tell her this? So obviously it's a trap and despite everybody pointing out the obvious Buffy stubbornly "went in anyway." I don't believe she'd be this foolish so already I feel like the plot is dictating that Buffy behaves uncharacteristically so that they could have her lose.
Buffy was concerned that Caleb had another potential. She acknowledged that it could be a trap, both from Giles and Spike, which is why she made plans in case it was. She left Willow and Giles with the less experienced potentials (in case it was a bait and switch as Spike suggested) whilst she took a group with half go in and half wait outside in case it was a trap (as Giles suggested). Buffy couldn't not go in because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she had the opportunity to rescue someone who needed her help and she just left them there because it "might" be a trap.

Where Buffy's plan fell down is because she underestimated Caleb. The moment he knocked her unconscious was when the plan fell apart but people forget that he took out Spike too. The group expected bringers and Caleb which is what they got but what they didn't expect was for Caleb to take out two of the strongest fighters so easily.

It was stupid for the bad guys to dig out the scythe though especially as there was absolutely no benefit for them to do so since they couldn't wield it.

Then in "Empty Places" Buffy justifies going back to the vineyard because "the bad guys always go where the power is" Huh? What? Since when? That's not supported at all. The Master was trapped in an underground church, Angelus resided in a mansion, The Mayor presumably had a normal home as well his office, Glory had a fancy apartment, The Trio lived in a basement etc. Arguably Adam is the only one who had a liar that was important to his plan (the Initiative caves) so what is Buffy basing this theory on? Big Bad's have always lived in places completely unrelated to their master plan. Buffy has no reason to make this incredibly tenuous connection at all.
There is some logic to Buffy's line of thinking, bad guys will always protect something that is instrumental to their plan, whether that be the key to success or the key to the heroes foiling their plot. Most villains never stick around to make sure the hero is actually dead, they just assume the death contraption does the job only to find out later that the hero escaped.

The First's biggest mistake was kidnapping Spike because there was no benefit to that and it only got Buffy more involved. The First could've gotten the drop on Buffy and annihilated them all if it had kept Spike out of things.

And all the characters who don't follow Buffy are punished by walking into a trap (the bomb in "Touched"). It's nice an' all that they have Buffy try and defend Faith in "End of Days" from the, frankly, incredibly ungrateful and flakey Potentials ("I think we were punished. We followed her and..." "It didn't work out" "Guys it's not her fault! It could've just as easily happened to me") but it definitely felt like the writers were in fact punishing the characters for having the audacity to doubt Buffy. I could've been on board with that if Buffy's reasoning made any kind of logical sense but as you say, Buffy only defeats The First this season due to ex machinas and outrageously incompetent villains.

They had no reason to trust her. And as a die-hard Buffy fan, it hurts to say that.

I still think that kicking Buffy out of her own home and showing no remorse or guilt about this at all is still a disgusting and unjust thing to do, though.
What annoys me about the mutiny most of all is that it is Kennedy and Wood that are leading it. Kennedy has looked down her nose at Buffy from the moment she arrived and is arguably using the mutiny as a power play (as she thought she would get a bigger say with Faith in charge and she even suggests she should get a bigger say in the immediate aftermath when everyone is trying to talk at once "I think those of us who have been here the longest should get a bigger say"), whilst Wood is just pissy that Buffy wouldn't let him kill Spike. Given that he was the one that suggested Buffy take the potentials to the vineyard despite her reservations (which kind of suggests that Buffy's biggest mistake was listening to Wood) it could be argued that Wood was deliberately setting Buffy up for a fall as revenge.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
778
Age
47
Buffy was concerned that Caleb had another potential. She acknowledged that it could be a trap, both from Giles and Spike, which is why she made plans in case it was. She left Willow and Giles with the less experienced potentials (in case it was a bait and switch as Spike suggested) whilst she took a group with half go in and half wait outside in case it was a trap (as Giles suggested). Buffy couldn't not go in because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she had the opportunity to rescue someone who needed her help and she just left them there because it "might" be a trap.

Where Buffy's plan fell down is because she underestimated Caleb. The moment he knocked her unconscious was when the plan fell apart but people forget that he took out Spike too. The group expected bringers and Caleb which is what they got but what they didn't expect was for Caleb to take out two of the strongest fighters so easily.

It was stupid for the bad guys to dig out the scythe though especially as there was absolutely no benefit for them to do so since they couldn't wield it.



There is some logic to Buffy's line of thinking, bad guys will always protect something that is instrumental to their plan, whether that be the key to success or the key to the heroes foiling their plot. Most villains never stick around to make sure the hero is actually dead, they just assume the death contraption does the job only to find out later that the hero escaped.

The First's biggest mistake was kidnapping Spike because there was no benefit to that and it only got Buffy more involved. The First could've gotten the drop on Buffy and annihilated them all if it had kept Spike out of things.



What annoys me about the mutiny most of all is that it is Kennedy and Wood that are leading it. Kennedy has looked down her nose at Buffy from the moment she arrived and is arguably using the mutiny as a power play (as she thought she would get a bigger say with Faith in charge and she even suggests she should get a bigger say in the immediate aftermath when everyone is trying to talk at once "I think those of us who have been here the longest should get a bigger say"), whilst Wood is just pissy that Buffy wouldn't let him kill Spike. Given that he was the one that suggested Buffy take the potentials to the vineyard despite her reservations (which kind of suggests that Buffy's biggest mistake was listening to Wood) it could be argued that Wood was deliberately setting Buffy up for a fall as revenge.
I don't think he was setting her deliberately but he doesn't know how to deal with the situation anymore than she does. Less actually he's never lead against a big bad. I think the sabotage after the event was subconscious.
 

vampmogs

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Buffy was concerned that Caleb had another potential. She acknowledged that it could be a trap, both from Giles and Spike, which is why she made plans in case it was. She left Willow and Giles with the less experienced potentials (in case it was a bait and switch as Spike suggested) whilst she took a group with half go in and half wait outside in case it was a trap (as Giles suggested). Buffy couldn't not go in because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she had the opportunity to rescue someone who needed her help and she just left them there because it "might" be a trap.
There was ways for Buffy to determine if Caleb really had a Potential. In "Showtime" the Coven was able to perform a spell which pinpointed the exact location of Eve and then in "Potential" Willow was able to perform a spell to hunt down Amanda. If Buffy wanted to determine for sure if Caleb really did have a Potential hostage, there was ways she could have done this without rushing people into the vineyard.

Buffy does acknowledge that it may be a trap but she goes in anyway. Even when she tries to hunt down The Bringers with Faith it's she who points out that The Bringers are behaving differently and appear to want to be found ("Lends credence to 'it's a trap theory'") but insists she's "through with waiting around for people to attack us" which suggests Buffy's behaving recklessly in part because she's fed up, tired, and deciding to make a bold and brash decision. Even without The Bringers blatantly trying to lure Buffy to the vineyard, the fact that Caleb sends a message telling her that he "has something of [hers]" is a clear-as-day sign that he's goading her to attack him. Buffy must know that she's playing right into his hands and yet she does it anyway.

I sympathise that Buffy was concerned about a hypothetical Potential hostage. But even leaving aside the ways she could have confirmed this as I've stated above, it was extremely reckless of her to endanger many more Potentials for another Potential which may not exist and when Caleb is "calling her out." She rests her entire plan on a hope and a prayer that he "won't be expecting them to attack this soon" despite knowing that The First can watch them at any time undetected. Which granted, is a major plot hole of Season 7 as a whole (surely The First was watching her throughout "Chosen" when she decided to activate all the Potentials and yet it did nothing), but it also makes the idea that she could ever launch an attack on Caleb unexpectedly kind of silly.
 
thetopher
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Excellent points about ways to verify potentials and Faith commenting on odd Bringer behavior.

DeadlyDuo

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There was ways for Buffy to determine if Caleb really had a Potential. In "Showtime" the Coven was able to perform a spell which pinpointed the exact location of Eve and then in "Potential" Willow was able to perform a spell to hunt down Amanda. If Buffy wanted to determine for sure if Caleb really did have a Potential hostage, there was ways she could have done this without rushing people into the vineyard.

Buffy does acknowledge that it may be a trap but she goes in anyway. Even when she tries to hunt down The Bringers with Faith it's she who points out that The Bringers are behaving differently and appear to want to be found ("Lends credence to 'it's a trap theory'") but insists she's "through with waiting around for people to attack us" which suggests Buffy's behaving recklessly in part because she's fed up, tired, and deciding to make a bold and brash decision. Even without The Bringers blatantly trying to lure Buffy to the vineyard, the fact that Caleb sends a message telling her that he "has something of [hers]" is a clear-as-day sign that he's goading her to attack him. Buffy must know that she's playing right into his hands and yet she does it anyway.

I sympathise that Buffy was concerned about a hypothetical Potential hostage. But even leaving aside the ways she could have confirmed this as I've stated above, it was extremely reckless of her to endanger many more Potentials for another Potential which may not exist and when Caleb is "calling her out." She rests her entire plan on a hope and a prayer that he "won't be expecting them to attack this soon" despite knowing that The First can watch them at any time undetected. Which granted, is a major plot hole of Season 7 as a whole (surely The First was watching her throughout "Chosen" when she decided to activate all the Potentials and yet it did nothing), but it also makes the idea that she could ever launch an attack on Caleb unexpectedly kind of silly.
Willow's spell was reckless, it sends out a bright light to highlight who the potential was. Aside from the fact that everyone spent the majority of the episode thinking it was Dawn because the light went through her to get to Amanda, say that Amanda wasn't on the other side of the front door, would the light have wondered through Sunnydale until it found her, potentially highlighting her as a potential to the bringers?

Caleb was ridiculously cocky. Aside from the stupid plan of digging out the scythe in the first place, he was confident that Buffy wouldn't lift it until she did, then he wasn't so cocky anymore. Seriously that was a major idiot move on the side of evil and essentially is what let Buffy win. Telling buffy he has something of hers is essentially taunting her if he does have something and also luring her into a trap.

Also Wood was the one who told Buffy to take the potentials to "test" them, otherwise Buffy would've probably left them behind. As it was she compromised by only taking the more experienced ones whilst putting plans in place to safeguard the more vulnerable ones. There's no doubt that Buffy's overall plan was flawed but things didn't really hit the fan until Caleb showed up and took out both Buffy and Spike which left the rest of the team more vulnerable. Even Faith struggled and it was Spike who called the retreat. Buffy underestimated Caleb but considering Caleb was getting power boosts from the first, how exactly was she supposed to know that?
 

vampmogs

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Willow's spell was reckless, it sends out a bright light to highlight who the potential was. Aside from the fact that everyone spent the majority of the episode thinking it was Dawn because the light went through her to get to Amanda, say that Amanda wasn't on the other side of the front door, would the light have wondered through Sunnydale until it found her, potentially highlighting her as a potential to the bringers?
That's all well and good but if a Potential was truly being held hostage by Caleb, I think it's a little late to be worrying about whether it'll make her an easy target for Bringers. Furthermore, as I said in my original post, they were also shown in "Showtime" relying on the Coven which pinpointed them to Eve's exact motel room. So there was other ways besides Willow's spell.

Caleb was ridiculously cocky. Aside from the stupid plan of digging out the scythe in the first place, he was confident that Buffy wouldn't lift it until she did, then he wasn't so cocky anymore. Seriously that was a major idiot move on the side of evil and essentially is what let Buffy win. Telling buffy he has something of hers is essentially taunting her if he does have something and also luring her into a trap.
Yes, I mean none of this makes sense. Season 7 is full of iffy logical and characterisation like this. Caleb was extremely foolish to lure Buffy to the vineyard in the first place. It does not, however, make Buffy any less foolish for going there under some vague and incredibly obvious "I have something of yours" trap. It does not justify her going there when even she points out that The Bringers are deliberately acting like they want to be found.

Also Wood was the one who told Buffy to take the potentials to "test" them, otherwise Buffy would've probably left them behind.
That'd just makes Buffy silly for listening to Wood. It doesn't justify her plan. There were also plenty of other ways that she could test them without leading them into battle against a new and mysterious agent of The First. Vampire slaying, perhaps?

There's no doubt that Buffy's overall plan was flawed but things didn't really hit the fan until Caleb showed up and took out both Buffy and Spike which left the rest of the team more vulnerable. Even Faith struggled and it was Spike who called the retreat. Buffy underestimated Caleb but considering Caleb was getting power boosts from the first, how exactly was she supposed to know that?
By doing some research. That's what Giles was trying to tell her remember? ("We know nothing about this man! We have to have more time!") The others were trying to implore Buffy to wait until they learnt more about Caleb. The fact that Buffy underestimated Caleb and attacked him without learning more about him first is not an excuse but a fundamental flaw of her plan to begin with. It was pointed out to her by the Scoobies that they knew nothing about Caleb but she stubbornly ignored them anyway.

Believe me, I absolutely adore Buffy, but her battle strategies and her overall decision-making in Season 7 was a pretty big damn mess. "Dirty Girls" isn't the only episode she's written to behave both recklessly and foolishly this season but it's one of the worst. I don't like it and I think it's borderline character-assassination because I don't think she's really this silly, but it's what was written. This episode would have been a lot more easy to swallow if they'd written Caleb's trap in a far less obvious and, frankly, juvenile way. If they'd come up with something a little more cunning then "come to my secret liar because I have something of yours", I'd be far more sympathetic. As it were written, it's ludicrous that Buffy would fall for it. But what's even stranger is that I think they deliberately wrote it to be glaringly obvious because literally every other character can see it but her. Why they wanted to throw her under the bus like this, I have no idea. They did it in "LMPTM" as well when she was proven to be blatantly wrong about Spike's trigger/the mystical stone.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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That's all well and good but if a Potential was truly being held hostage by Caleb, I think it's a little late to be worrying about whether it'll make her an easy target for Bringers. Furthermore, as I said in my original post, they were also shown in "Showtime" relying on the Coven which pinpointed them to Eve's exact motel room. So there was other ways besides Willow's spell.
The scoobies would've had to follow the light of Willow's spell which would've led them to the vineyard anyway. Also the coven were a plot device that let the scoobies discover that Eve was already dead, which again raises the problem that the scoobies would've been led to the vineyard with a dead potential.

Yes, I mean none of this makes sense. Season 7 is full of iffy logical and characterisation like this. Caleb was extremely foolish to lure Buffy to the vineyard in the first place. It does not, however, make Buffy any less foolish for going there under some vague and incredibly obvious "I have something of yours" trap. It does not justify her going there when even she points out that The Bringers are deliberately acting like they want to be found.
At this juncture, Buffy is feeling the pressure of her role, she's bound to make mistakes because that's what people do under pressure. Unfortunately for her it was a costly one, yet Faith equally makes a costly mistake soon after and nobody is jumping on her like they do on Buffy. It should be noted that it is Kennedy and Wood leading the mutiny, two people who really dislike Buffy. Wood because Buffy wouldn't let him kill Spike, and Kennedy because she wants a bigger say that Buffy won't let her have. The mutiny is a powerplay for Kennedy, she sees Buffy is in a vulnerable position where her judgement is being questioned, and Kennedy seizes her chance to get Buffy removed as leader and have Faith in her place instead. Kennedy had been brown nosing Faith and openly admits that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge.

That'd just makes Buffy silly for listening to Wood. It doesn't justify her plan.
It makes Wood an idiot for suggesting it. Buffy gets accused of not listening to others, yet when she does it blows up in her face. Question is whether Wood deliberately suggested it knowing that things wouldn't go to plan (albeit not as badly as it did).

There were also plenty of other ways that she could test them without leading them into battle against a new and mysterious agent of The First. Vampire slaying, perhaps?
She did that. It was the fact the potentials hadn't been tested "in the field". Also, as harsh as it sounds, if Buffy had to lose some potentials as cannon fodder, it was better that it was in working against the first, rather than being killed by some minor vamp. Also, there might not have been many vamps around to test them against, people and demons alike were skipping town.

By doing some research. That's what Giles was trying to tell her remember? ("We know nothing about this man! We have to have more time!") The others were trying to implore Buffy to wait until they learnt more about Caleb. The fact that Buffy underestimated Caleb and attacked him without learning more about him first is not an excuse but a fundamental flaw of her plan to begin with. It was pointed out to her by the Scoobies that they knew nothing about Caleb but she stubbornly ignored them anyway.
Buffy's trust in Giles was severely damaged by the stunt he pulled with Wood against Spike. When he sent Spike away with Andrew, Buffy asked him if he intended for Spike to come back. Giles has been pushing for Buffy to lead then when she does, he starts trying overrule her. Giles may have been right but ultimately Buffy was right too.
 

vampmogs

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The scoobies would've had to follow the light of Willow's spell which would've led them to the vineyard anyway. Also the coven were a plot device that let the scoobies discover that Eve was already dead, which again raises the problem that the scoobies would've been led to the vineyard with a dead potential.
Well, Willow's light wouldn't have led them to the vineyard because Caleb wasn't keeping a Potential there. However, hypothetically, if it did, Buffy and the others would then have confirmation Caleb was in fact holding a Potential and that it was important they acted with greater urgency. And whilst the Coven led them to a dead Slayer and it's not a foolproof certainty it wouldn't do the same again, it'd still demonstrate that Buffy is using every resource available to her to make the best decision she could under the circumstances. No one could fault Buffy for still believing a Potential was being held captive if those spells showed that to her. It would have proved that Buffy was showing initiative and exhausting all the tools at her disposal rather than rushing into the situation blindly based on "what ifs" and hypotheticals she had absolutely no proof of.

At this juncture, Buffy is feeling the pressure of her role, she's bound to make mistakes because that's what people do under pressure. Unfortunately for her it was a costly one, yet Faith equally makes a costly mistake soon after and nobody is jumping on her like they do on Buffy. It should be noted that it is Kennedy and Wood leading the mutiny, two people who really dislike Buffy. Wood because Buffy wouldn't let him kill Spike, and Kennedy because she wants a bigger say that Buffy won't let her have. The mutiny is a powerplay for Kennedy, she sees Buffy is in a vulnerable position where her judgement is being questioned, and Kennedy seizes her chance to get Buffy removed as leader and have Faith in her place instead. Kennedy had been brown nosing Faith and openly admits that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge.
I've never said that the characters were justified in kicking Buffy out. I'm just arguing that Buffy's plan was ridiculously inept and reckless and that I can understand why they all lost faith in her. I will never, ever support what happened in "Empty Places."

It makes Wood an idiot for suggesting it.
If Wood's an idiot for suggesting it then Buffy is an idiot for listening to him. However, I might add that Wood suggested Buffy test the girls in the field. Nowhere does he suggest Buffy lead the girls into a blatantly obvious trap against a mysterious agent of The First and against the advice of all her comrades. "The field" doesn't mean that at all. The Buffy/Wood conversation took place prior to Buffy even knowing about Caleb so you can't pin the blame on Wood for suggesting something he couldn't have possibly known about.

She did that.
She did that with a handful of Potentials who aren't obviously the ones she's referring to when she says "haven't even been tested in battle."

It was the fact the potentials hadn't been tested "in the field".
I don't see why you'd assume "the field" only applies to fighting, say, Bringers and not other demonic creatures? In "Checkpoint" Buffy says that Xander had "clocked more field time" then all the Watcher's combined. Apparently it was also "Riley-speak" from his army days. "The field" just refers to battle time. It's not a reference meant exclusively for The First or agents of The First.

Also, as harsh as it sounds, if Buffy had to lose some potentials as cannon fodder, it was better that it was in working against the first, rather than being killed by some minor vamp.
Can you elaborate on how you think it makes tactical or moral sense to risk countless Potentials as "cannon fodder" all for the possibility that Caleb may - just may - be holding one Potential hostage? Something Buffy has no proof of whatsoever and something Caleb never even claimed himself?

Also, there might not have been many vamps around to test them against, people and demons alike were skipping town.
Spike was hunting a vampire at the beginning of the episode. Buffy, Wood and Spike fought 3 vampires at the beginning of the previous episode and then Buffy fought another vampire later in the episode ("Lies My Parents Told Me"). Buffy slayed two vampires in the beginning of the episode before that ("Storyteller"). Evidently, there was still no shortage of vamps in Sunnydale. We'd seen 7 killed in the space of just 3 episodes.

Buffy's trust in Giles was severely damaged by the stunt he pulled with Wood against Spike.
But Giles wasn't the only one imploring her to wait (Xander - "Buffy, an unknown preacher blows into town and tells you he has something of yours. This thing has trap written all over it"). Nor should it take Giles or anyone for that matter to tell Buffy it's reckless and dangerous to go into battle against a mysterious foe you have absolutely no information about. Buffy's own common sense should have prevailed but when it didn't, she should have listened to everyone. Furthermore, if you could blame Giles for Buffy's lack of trust in him, which is fair, you could equally accuse Buffy of behaving recklessly despite Giles pleading her with not to just to spite him.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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@vampmogs A lot of the characters do stupid things in Season 7, you can definitely see a decline in the writing from the earlier seasons. Not to mention the plot holes and continuity errors.
 

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Also what nobody considers is the metal effect on Buffy of finding out that the First was able to raise a army because bringing her back altered the balance between good and evil
 
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