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She deserved it

Dora

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No arguments there! 😂 🤝
The decline in writing I think came about through the Spike storyline which basically took over season seven from CWDP, Spike had no story, it was trying to make a character important to the plot when he was not important until his death
 

Btvs fan

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The decline in writing I think came about through the Spike storyline which basically took over season seven from CWDP, Spike had no story, it was trying to make a character important to the plot when he was not important until his death
No it had nothing to do with Spike.
It was due to bringing in the Potentials in a desperate attempt to make a spin off, Espenson saying about a Slayer School sounded just 🤢
Having a main villain who could do F all. Literally for 6 episodes straight they just sat around Buffys house saying how scary the First was and that's it. It's only after Firefly was cancelled and Nathan Fillion needed a job did the show have a tangible villain to fight.
Andrew .. nuff said
I mean besides Dawn having a magic zapper what did Xanders kidnapping of Dawn add or say about the characters !
Both Buffy and Willow being uber powered. Having 2 ubers on one team makes it skewed against the other.
 

vampmogs

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No it had nothing to do with Spike.
It was due to bringing in the Potentials in a desperate attempt to make a spin off, Espenson saying about a Slayer School sounded just 🤢
Having a main villain who could do F all. Literally for 6 episodes straight they just sat around Buffys house saying how scary the First was and that's it. It's only after Firefly was cancelled and Nathan Fillion needed a job did the show have a tangible villain to fight.
Andrew .. nuff said
I mean besides Dawn having a magic zapper what did Xanders kidnapping of Dawn add or say about the characters !
Both Buffy and Willow being uber powered. Having 2 ubers on one team makes it skewed against the other.
I wouldn't go as far to say that it had nothing to do with Spike.

Spike's story arc in Season 7 is as incoherent and poorly thought out as everything else. Take for instance the trigger. What good is a storyline where Buffy champions Spike and believes in him ("he can be a good man, Giles. I feel it. But he'll never get there if we don't give him the chance") when the trigger robs him of his freewill and turns him into a mindless killing machine? It makes his capacity for goodness largely irrelevant because Spike was mind-controlled. Thus, it makes no difference as to whether or not Spike was a good man because he didn't have autonomy over himself whenever The First would activate him. A much stronger and more coherent story would've been one wherein The First attempts to manipulate Spike into becoming a killer again, much like it tried to do with Angel in "Amends", which is not only a far more interesting story as characters with freewill are vastly more interesting that mindless killing machines, but because then Buffy's insistence that he could be a good person would actually be relevant to Spike's plot. As it were, they completely undercut Spike's story arc by introducing the trigger which was indiscriminate in turning Spike into a killer again regardless of his soul.

There's also gaping plot holes in Spike's story as well. There's the obvious goofs like the Ubervamp "drowning" him in "Bring on the Night" despite the fact he doesn't breathe, but then there's also the fact that in "Conversations With Dead People" and "Sleeper" when he's triggered to kill people he is cool, calm and collected, and yet when he's triggered in "Lies My Parents Told Me" he's a mindless monster. Why does Wood playing the folk song turn Spike into a ferocious animalistic beast but earlier in the season it turned Spike into a manipulative, seductive killer who was able to lure his victims from clubs and bars, kill them, and then bury their bodies underneath a house whilst he calmly hummed the tune? There's no consistency to the trigger's effect over Spike.

It's also never explained how Spike was able to kill any of those people whilst the chip was in his head. It's raised as a question but then totally forgot about and never answered. They had the perfect opportunity to answer it in "The Killer In Me" when the chip started malfunctioning but instead we're just meant to assume, I guess, that The First could bypass the chip.

And why does The First keep Spike alive in "Showtime" when Spike makes it clear he won't be swayed to it's side? Why not kill him and eliminate one of Buffy's warriors right there and then?

So given that Spike plays such a significant and central role to the season, the fact that his storyline is a mess is yet another serious flaw of the season overall.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Also kidnapping Spike had no benefit to the first, if anything it only made Buffy aware of what was going on. Had it left Spike out of it, then it could've gotten further along in its plan and caught Buffy off her guard eg raise a whole load of turok han with the blood of innocent civilians then send them to massacre the house.

For me, giving Spike the soul was a big misstep in his story arc. Aside from the unfortunate implications of it in regards to Spike (eg self-harm/ suicide depending on your view point), it also gives him a get out of jail free card for the AR. If the chip was forcing Spike to be good via negative reinforcement, then maybe the writers should've had Buffy encouraging him to be good through positive reinforcement. Having Buffy believe he can be good and Spike wanting to prove her right would be just as efficient as zapping his brain, perhaps even more so. In fact, that would cause the scoobies to legitimately call Buffy's judgement into question if she gets rid of Spike's chip aka the muzzle, and just lets him roam about on the belief that he wouldn't kill them all.

It would also add an extra dimension to the Wood situation because Spike is still the vampire that killed Wood's mom so then there is that point of contention.
 

Btvs fan

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Also kidnapping Spike had no benefit to the first, if anything it only made Buffy aware of what was going on. Had it left Spike out of it, then it could've gotten further along in its plan and caught Buffy off her guard eg raise a whole load of turok han with the blood of innocent civilians then send them to massacre the house.

For me, giving Spike the soul was a big misstep in his story arc. Aside from the unfortunate implications of it in regards to Spike (eg self-harm/ suicide depending on your view point), it also gives him a get out of jail free card for the AR. If the chip was forcing Spike to be good via negative reinforcement, then maybe the writers should've had Buffy encouraging him to be good through positive reinforcement. Having Buffy believe he can be good and Spike wanting to prove her right would be just as efficient as zapping his brain, perhaps even more so. In fact, that would cause the scoobies to legitimately call Buffy's judgement into question if she gets rid of Spike's chip aka the muzzle, and just lets him roam about on the belief that he wouldn't kill them all.

It would also add an extra dimension to the Wood situation because Spike is still the vampire that killed Wood's mom so then there is that point of contention.
That goes back to the AR which was a bad/poorly thought idea (only done just to make people dislike Spike) in the first place. After they did that you can't have Spike on the show without being dusted straight away, that's why he was given a Soul, forget everything else that's the only reason imo .
 

DeadlyDuo

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That goes back to the AR which was a bad/poorly thought idea (only done just to make people dislike Spike) in the first place. After they did that you can't have Spike on the show without being dusted straight away, that's why he was given a Soul, forget everything else that's the only reason imo .
True. The AR is such an odd scene to use because of how unlikeable it could've made Spike and the writers were relying on the audience feeling sympathy for him in the next season. Season 6 started so well with Bargaining but then started to decline shortly after. OMWF is overrated.
 

Btvs fan

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True. The AR is such an odd scene to use because of how unlikeable it could've made Spike and the writers were relying on the audience feeling sympathy for him in the next season. Season 6 started so well with Bargaining but then started to decline shortly after. OMWF is overrated.
I don't think Joss was thinking that far ahead. He was pissed off because people were rooting for Spuffy and he wanted to go no you shouldn't. I mean it's why there was no kissing or sex scene after the AR scene. At best it can be implied in that Chosen cut away scene.

He had 2 characters with amazing sexual chemistry (whether you're for Spuffy or not you can't deny they had it) and he killed it. You weren't getting anything but a hug or a meaningful glance after that.

Side note Its amazing how Hollywood movies and shows always seem to say the lantern jawed John Wayne wannabe is who women should love and anything else is a big no no and Joss always followed that format to a certain extent. That and the cliche Romeo and Juliet sexless version which is boring imo. Not just for B/A. He did it with Wes and Fred and Mal and Anara and there others as well. He doesn't seem to know how to write anything else romance wise.

I thought Spuffy was great up until Gone.
The scene between them Afterlife and hex with her hands is fantastic and the end scene of TR is great.

Then after that it they really put the hammer down, it was joyless sex in an Alley, the brutal beat down in DT/The Riley worship and Dr Spike in AYW 🤢
The Hells Bells scene was good though at least.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Being serious.

Spanky

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Black Thorn
I felt sorry for Spike after Seeing Red and I started to be able to empathize with him more and understand the character better.
 
B
Btvs fan
Lol i can't tell when your being serious and joking

DeadlyDuo

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I don't think Joss was thinking that far ahead. He was pissed off because people were rooting for Spuffy and he wanted to go no you shouldn't. I mean it's why there was no kissing or sex scene after the AR scene. At best it can be implied in that Chosen cut away scene.
I think he knew he'd be hauled over the coals big time by fans if he showed Buffy kissing her attempted rapist. Joss likes to call himself a feminist, even he'd know that it would be in poor taste. Saying that, Buffy did then declare her love at the end of Chosen, though it could be argued she was just saying it because Spike was going to die which is what Spike believed, Essentially Joss tried to have his cake and eat it too.

He had 2 characters with amazing sexual chemistry (whether you're for Spuffy or not you can't deny they had it) and he killed it. You weren't getting anything but a hug or a meaningful glance after that.
Buffy and Spike had great frenemy chemistry, Something Blue worked so well because it played off of that, Buffy and Spike hate each other but now they were so in love they were getting married. Sexual chemistry wise, both JM and SMG did there best to make it work but it wasn't as natural as their chemistry was with JL and DB respectively. JM and SMG had different acting styles, JM was more method which worked well with JL as she too had a similar acting style, whereas DB and SMG had similar acting styles.

He doesn't seem to know how to write anything else romance wise.
Joss seems incapable of writing a happy relationship. Either the couple break up for some contrived reason or one of them dies. Killow happened literally just so one of the scoobies ended the series in a relationship despite being piss poor storytelling. There is no reason why Willow would be attracted to Kennedy, she's a horrible character and there's nothing drawing Willow to her like there was with Tara or Oz. The couple that made the most sense to get back together (Xanya) were kept apart and Killow was only because Joss got flack over Tara's death as a continuation of the "kill your gays" trope. Tara should've lived.

It would've been interesting to see what would've happened if Tara had been brought back to life. Killow would've sank faster than a stone.

The scene between them Afterlife and hex with her hands is fantastic and the end scene of TR is great.

Then after that it they really put the hammer down, it was joyless sex in an Alley, the brutal beat down in DT/The Riley worship and Dr Spike in AYW 🤢
The Hells Bells scene was good though at least.
I agree that the platonic Spuffy scenes are good. It goes downhill from OMWF onwards.
 
B
Btvs fan
Sorry my bad, i meant that Joss knew that doing the AR meant he would not have them kiss. He even says on commentary about Sam and Diane in cheers

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Fair enough. What was it that you could empathise with ?
The whole point of the chip was to socialize him to practice acceptable behavior patterns. Upon entering into a relationship with Buffy he learned a pattern of behavior which he thought was acceptable and in Seeing Red he was acting upon those behavioral cues as he had done in the past.

Due to the chip and the lack of a soul Spike was relegated to being something akin to a dog, in my eyes. So, just as when I watched It's Me or the Dog and I felt sorry for the dogs as Victoria Stilwell had to correct them because of the traits their master(s) instilled in them, I too could empathize with Spike and his situation. He was only behaving as he had been conditioned to behave.
 

Btvs fan

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I think he knew he'd be hauled over the coals big time by fans if he showed Buffy kissing her attempted rapist. Joss likes to call himself a feminist, even he'd know that it would be in poor taste. Saying that, Buffy did then declare her love at the end of Chosen, though it could be argued she was just saying it because Spike was going to die which is what Spike believed, Essentially Joss tried to have his cake and eat it too.



Buffy and Spike had great frenemy chemistry, Something Blue worked so well because it played off of that, Buffy and Spike hate each other but now they were so in love they were getting married. Sexual chemistry wise, both JM and SMG did there best to make it work but it wasn't as natural as their chemistry was with JL and DB respectively. JM and SMG had different acting styles, JM was more method which worked well with JL as she too had a similar acting style, whereas DB and SMG had similar acting styles.



Joss seems incapable of writing a happy relationship. Either the couple break up for some contrived reason or one of them dies. Killow happened literally just so one of the scoobies ended the series in a relationship despite being piss poor storytelling. There is no reason why Willow would be attracted to Kennedy, she's a horrible character and there's nothing drawing Willow to her like there was with Tara or Oz. The couple that made the most sense to get back together (Xanya) were kept apart and Killow was only because Joss got flack over Tara's death as a continuation of the "kill your gays" trope. Tara should've lived.

It would've been interesting to see what would've happened if Tara had been brought back to life. Killow would've sank faster than a stone.



I agree that the platonic Spuffy scenes are good. It goes downhill from OMWF onwards.
I disagree about the style if acting. Juliet's crazy accent was just ott. She actually sounds more British in interviews now than she did then.
And does DB have a style/method if acting, I thought he just played himself in well pretty much everything. Whether it be that or Bones or that Seal team show he does
 

DeadlyDuo

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I disagree about the style if acting. Juliet's crazy accent was just ott. She actually sounds more British in interviews now than she did then.
And does DB have a style/method if acting, I thought he just played himself in well pretty much everything. Whether it be that or Bones or that Seal team show he does
JL and JM are both method, the almost kiss face turn was something that occurred naturally during JM's audition which was kept for the episode. Also JM said that they were constantly pushing each other with their acting, when one raised things a level, the other would try and raise things higher.
 

Btvs fan

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JL and JM are both method, the almost kiss face turn was something that occurred naturally during JM's audition which was kept for the episode. Also JM said that they were constantly pushing each other with their acting, when one raised things a level, the other would try and raise things higher.
There's only so much you can do/push with Bit parts, so they were just having fun with it. I mean that was back in School Hard the very first episode

I think he knew he'd be hauled over the coals big time by fans if he showed Buffy kissing her attempted rapist. Joss likes to call himself a feminist, even he'd know that it would be in poor taste. Saying that, Buffy did then declare her love at the end of Chosen, though it could be argued she was just saying it because Spike was going to die which is what Spike believed, Essentially Joss tried to have his cake and eat it too.



Buffy and Spike had great frenemy chemistry, Something Blue worked so well because it played off of that, Buffy and Spike hate each other but now they were so in love they were getting married. Sexual chemistry wise, both JM and SMG did there best to make it work but it wasn't as natural as their chemistry was with JL and DB respectively. JM and SMG had different acting styles, JM was more method which worked well with JL as she too had a similar acting style, whereas DB and SMG had similar acting styles.



Joss seems incapable of writing a happy relationship. Either the couple break up for some contrived reason or one of them dies. Killow happened literally just so one of the scoobies ended the series in a relationship despite being piss poor storytelling. There is no reason why Willow would be attracted to Kennedy, she's a horrible character and there's nothing drawing Willow to her like there was with Tara or Oz. The couple that made the most sense to get back together (Xanya) were kept apart and Killow was only because Joss got flack over Tara's death as a continuation of the "kill your gays" trope. Tara should've lived.

It would've been interesting to see what would've happened if Tara had been brought back to life. Killow would've sank faster than a stone.



I agree that the platonic Spuffy scenes are good. It goes downhill from OMWF onwards.
I disagree here. It was more than that. The best comparison was Han Solo/Princess Leia style bickering. TBH Spikes scene in Chosen should've been I know. Would've worked better imo
Hell ASH is a method actor too (JM calls him the best actor on the show) he and JM equally had awesome chemistry by the style of acting.
Buffy and Angel did have chemistry but the B/A angst routine was getting very boring by Buffy S3.

Also like I said before the whole jutting jaw John Wayne style love interest gets boring real fast. They tried to replicate it with Riley and it failed big time. But that's a personal preference, (I'm more counter culture )Its common in Hollywood not just in Buffy. I guess it sells and it fulfills the Directors/Producers fantasy.
 

MissChristina

👱🏻‍♀️👩🏻‍🦰🧑🏻👨🏼‍🏫
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There are some very compelling points made on this thread. I very much agree that Season 7 had been rushed, the writing is not as sharp, portions of the plot made zero sense. But I’m trying to look back at Season 7 more sympathetically, examine the broad brush strokes, and try to headcanon whatever possible.

To me, it seems obvious that Season 7 was written like it was a high-stakes poker game. It has been about sowing confusion, frustration, and chaos, in an effort to put the Slayer (or Slayers) on tilt before she triumphs in the end. It seems evident from the very first episode.

If anyone is unfamiliar with the poker term “being on tilt” - It refers to a player’s mental state, whether it’s confusion or frustration, that causes them to adopt a less optimal strategy, usually leading a player to become overly agressive and make risky and uncharacteristic choices. And the common cause of “being on tilt,” is usually from losing, in a public way, in a humiliating fashion.

The way I see it, from the start of Season 7, Buffy was already suffering a series of setbacks in a public way, some embarrassing or humiliating for her. Just to name a few:

-Buffy starts off the season with a severly dimished core group. Spike hasn’t been found yet, she doesn’t have a new boyfriend, or even any prospects on the horizon (despite the McGuffin of Wood as a romantic interest way later in the season). Willow is banished to England. Mom is gone. No Giles. Even the couples, Anya/Xander and Willow/Tara, have all split, gone demon, or one-half has died. Even for Buffy, who prefers a level of solitude, her usual circle of family and friends from the previous six years is now just Xander and Dawn. This is a setback for Buffy.

-Then the whole thing with Anya, and Xander’s fight with Buffy right before it in “Selfless.” Don’t kill Anya, but you should kill Angel and Spike, according to Xander. Buffy, Willow and Xander begins the season’s theme of dredging up past secrets/grievances. Here, Willow finds out Xander lied to Buffy about what she said regarding Angel back in Season 2, while Buffy reveals that she thought both Xander and Willow were rooting for Angel to be killed. Later on, it’s Wood’s grievance against Spike. Frustration.

-The Bringers busting into her house, and just straight-up stealing Spike from under her nose while he was chained in her basement. Embarrassing loss.

-Then she got beatdown twice by the Ubervamp, getting herself pretty badly hurt for the Potentials to see. The first loss was ok. But the second loss was humiliating: Xander and Willow found her under debris, unconcious, and badly cut and bruised. She was brought home and had to listen to others debate about how she was beaten. Sure, she later won the fight at Thunderdome, but even then, the Ubervamp didn’t make it easy.

-Then, the public embarrassment that everyone (Willow, Xander, Dawn, Giles, Anya) now knows Buffy and Spike had been lovers, while the Potentials all have suspicions or various levels of confirmation (Rona and Molly making comments during that practice session when Spike got hurt). The revelation about Spike/Buffy was never properly addressed before Willow went all Dark in Season 6, so really, when the gang is more or less back together again, it’s the first time everyone is reckoning with that fact. And when everyone found out about Spike’s trigger, it was another humiliating WTF in the house.

-Then everyone kept seeing dead people. The house kept getting destroyed. More and more Potentials are cramming into a 3-bedroom house. Confusion.

-The biggest humiliation, I think, was Giles plotting behind Buffy’s back with Wood to kill Spike. And the resulting tension between them afterwards was palpable. Did anyone else see Giles wince when Buffy told him to go teach the potentials who still needed a teacher. Ouch.

There may be others, but these losses and setbacks, although relatively minor, were public and opens Buffy up to feeling exposed, maybe feelings of embarrassment, maybe humiliation. Importantly, it’s making Buffy feel frustrated and spiraling things further from her control. By the episode “Get it Done,” Buffy was clearly on tilt. Her jumping into the vortex for that exchange without knowing where it goes was a crazy move. Sure, she was able to come away with some information (she now knows there are hundreds of Turok-Han under the seal), it was an incredibly risky play. It was a bluff and Buffy got lucky cuz everyone folded.

Her reckless decision to hit the vineyard in “Dirty Girls,” even though the core Scoobies were all against the idea, not just Spike and Giles, is more evidence of her being on tilt. The Scoobies gave very good reasons why it’s a bad idea, and offered many alternatives. But Buffy was on track to keep making bad plays. And then, the utterly devastating, humiliating bad beat by Caleb. I dunno if anyone plays poker, but Buffy’s actions after that defeat were clear signs of her being on full tilt.

Her decision to re-enter the vineyard without understanding what she’s after is the perfect illustration of being on full tilt. It’s no plan. She’s been suffering loss and setbacks all season long. The Caleb smackdown was a humiliation. Has she ever retreated in such a devastating fashion? Right down to watching her best friend lose an eye?? Her whole persona afterwards was of someone on full tilt, judgement complete out-of-whack, and about to take a deep dive down some more bad choices.

When she returns to the vineyard alone, even though she was proven right afterwards, it was pure luck, not her leadership, that got her the wins. By the episode “Empty Places,” the Scoobies and Potentials turn against her, and Dawn is essentially the pit boss who tosses Buffy out of the game to walk it off. Buffy uses the opportunity to lessen the tilt.

There are a lot of posts on this thread that Buffy’s been acting out of character all of Season 7. But it was the writers’ intent to put her on tilt; they kept dealing her bad hands to build the frustration and confusion that would knock her mentally off-balance, and lead her to make rash decisions, often bad decisions. Her “uncharacteristic” lean on Spike, keeping him at the house despite the trigger danger is akin to Buffy holding onto what she thinks is her ace card, while everyone questions her inabilty to see the card as a liabilty to her hand. “I’m not ready for you to not be here,” is classic hanging on to the ace because you think you can get a winning hand.

Ultimately, Buffy gets a lucky break, plus a series of mistakes by the opponents, before she goes all-in and literally brings the house (town) down. And she did it all with that ace card she held on to. Sure, Season 7 is not a stellar season. And I agree that Spike’s chip and Spike’s soul and Spike’s trigger were big nothing-burgers cuz the reasons why he was still alive and/or still in town were so thin. But as I re-watch again this week, all the poker references suddenly became so clear. And I don’t even play poker.
 
K
katmobile
She did have an ace card but remove all the Spike references and yeah I'd argee with you. I like season seven and actually you've helped explain it.
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