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Should Angel have just kept the Gem of Amara?

white avenger

white avenger
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There is a distinction there: if you are concealed carrying or not carrying, no one knows you have a gun. But if Angel is walking outside at noon, everyone who knows what he is will know exactly what he has and where it is. As for a safe place, Spike dug it out of a "safe" place and he is not necessarily the poster child for perseverance.

If Angel only used the ring when it was absolutely necessary, that wouldn't be the same as strolling along the beach at high noon. That would be, to use your metaphor, concealed carry, or to use my metaphor, leaving it locked up until he needed it. At the worst, he could have Lorne spread the word that he used some kind of glamor that allowed him to walk in daylight for a short time before it collapsed. Given the size of the supernatural community around L A, that would have kept anyone interested in it searching for the wizard, witch, sorcerer, or shaman who produced it for years without ever bothering to even ask Angel.

And Spike dug the gem up originally from a concealed space, not necessarily a safe one. Simply putting it in a safe deposit box in a bank vault would have made it impossible for any vampire to reach, since banks are only open during the day. ("How would Angel be able to use it that way?" you ask. He wouldn't. But if he had returned the ring to Buffy, as he should have, if he felt incapable of keeping it safe, she most certainly could have. Well, except for weekends and holidays. No plan is flawless. Luckily, Big Bads in the Buffyverse all seemed to plan their final battles on Tuesday nights, and Buffy seemed to always know which Tuesday it would be at least a week beforehand, so she would have had plenty of time to pick it up during banking hours)
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
^^^

You mean like Buffy protected the Key? That was supposed to be secure but Tara let the cat out of the bag in the altered state of mind Glory had caused. Don't forget, the Gem of Amara was a well-known legend among vampires, that's how Spike knew about it. Giles confirmed that it was a legend known among the vampire community but it had been believed to be just a legend, but the story proves it existed so a lot of vampires would already know about it. A cover story of a glamour may have worked once but when he is wearing the ring, it is visible and some vampire or demon will spread the story that Angel was out in the light and had the Gem of Amara on. And once this was known, some of the richer vampires would employ some form of sorcerer to find out where it is hidden and a courier or thief to pick it out of the vault or wherever it was.
 

white avenger

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some vampire or demon will spread the story that Angel was out in the light and had the Gem of Amara on

Which is why I said that Angel could return the ring to Buffy for safekeeping. It would be far safer with her than it ever could be with him, and she would have the option of letting whichever vampire she wanted, or needed, to wear it as the circumstances dictated. Granted, at that time, Angel was the only vampire ally that Buffy had, and no one could have ever guessed that Spike would one day fight on her side, but, still, it would be at least as safe with Buffy keeping it until it was needed as the Scythe, an arguably far more powerful artifact, is. For that matter, Buffy could wear the thing herself until it became necessary to pass it on to Spike or Angel in time of need.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
Buffy does like her jewelry; rings, necklaces, earrings

DeadlyDuo

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Superman doesn't go around wearing that stupid blue longjohn outfit all the time.

Technically not true. Superman wears his costume under his Clark Kent suit. When trouble arises, he runs out into the street, takes off his glasses and rips open his shirt to reveal the giant S logo on his chest.

As for a safe place, Spike dug it out of a "safe" place and he is not necessarily the poster child for perseverance.

Spike can be quite determined when he puts his mind to something eg finding the cure for Drusilla, finding the gem of Amara. It could be argued that his infatuation with Buffy was a test of perseverance. Spike can be impulsive and get side-tracked, but if it's something he wants, he normally sticks at it to achieve his goal.
 

white avenger

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Superman wears his costume under his Clark Kent suit. When trouble arises, he runs out into the street, takes off his glasses and rips open his shirt to reveal the giant S logo on his chest.

True, but most of the time, as Clark Kent, his super suit is just an elaborate set of underwear, the equivalent of underwear He doesn't wear the long johns OPENLY. Probably a better metaphor would have been Green Lantern, who wears his ring constantly, but only uses its power when the need arises. Sorry, my comic book references are about 50 years outdated.

(For example, back when I was reading the comics, Superman's uniform was made from the blankets that he was wrapped in when Jor-El and Lara put him in that rocket to send him to Earth. This foolishness about a force field extending out 1/4 inch from his body, rendering whatever he's wearing indestructible at the time is ridiculous)
 

Slayrunt

Oh ho! Aren’t you Mr. Dicey Semantics?
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ive always thought yes... but then again it is a massive target. and also what if angelus turned up again. it would have been cool to see at least one angel task be done in daylight with the ring. good excuse for an interesting episode.
 

Ann

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I was not happy that Angel got rid of the Gem Of Amara and think he should have kept it. If Angel didn't want to wear it he could have put it somewhere where Spike, Angelus, or any other vampire that came looking for it wouldn't have found it. Angel could have told those who worked for him not to let Angelus have it if he came on the scene again. Buffy wanted Angel to have it to protect himself from his enemies, she trusted Angel to keep the ring safe and Buffy didn't want anything to happen to Angel.
 

Alittlegrim

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I think he was right to destroy it. It is too much power for one individual, even a good one like him. There is also the risk that someone else might get it. Remember how easily Buffy got it from Spike? The world is safer without it.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
I think he was right to destroy it. It is too much power for one individual, even a good one like him. There is also the risk that someone else might get it. Remember how easily Buffy got it from Spike? The world is safer without it.

I agree BUT the reason he gave for destroying it was really stupid. He said he would get used to walking in the light, and that he belonged in the dark. Even if he could walk in the light he’d still be an undead guy with tons of grief.

To me that episode was a way for the writers to tell the audience that they weren’t going to take any easy way out. That Angel would continue to have the limitations placed on him. (Unlike other shows where vamps can hang out in the sun with a ring or pretty much function normally with the exception of the being immortal thing).

I commend the decision to keep Angel in the dark but the reason should have been that having that ring was dangerous. People would continue to come after it and he couldn’t risk someone like Spike ever getting their hands on it.
 

Spanky

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I agree BUT the reason he gave for destroying it was really stupid. He said he would get used to walking in the light, and that he belonged in the dark.
He was just being a little drama queen. It's a laughable excuse meant to make his crusade seem more noble than it is.
 

EarthLogic

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I agree BUT the reason he gave for destroying it was really stupid. He said he would get used to walking in the light, and that he belonged in the dark.
Well actually what he said was:

Doyle: “So what, you don’t get the ring because your period of self-flagellation isn’t over yet? I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.”
Angel: “They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.”
Doyle: “And who’d look out for all the insomniacs?”
Angel: “I was brought back for a reason, Doyle, and as much as I would like to kid myself, I don’t think it was for 18 holes at Rancho.”

Which is a little different - Angel is saying that his purpose is to help those who are overlooked by the systems of the human world, which is overwhelmingly structured around the daytime. Angel seems to fear being drawn into those systems through his desire to be part of the human world, and so not concentrating as much on the world that takes place in the dark. Sure, the ability to continue his detective work in the day would logically be an asset, but I think from Angel's (self-flagellating) POV, he fears that he would be tempted to easily by the illusion of huamanity the ring would provide.

Besides, I think they were going for the 'poetic' reason rather than the straight-up rational one anyway.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Besides, I think they were going for the 'poetic' reason rather than the straight-up rational one anyway.

Yes, they were trying to be rather poetic.

I guess I don’t really understand this whole - daytime v. Nighttime dychotomy with the human world. People at night are not forgotten, the world continues to function just as well at night. Especially in a city like LA.

And another thing that bugs me is - this doesn’t fit with the theme of this episode. It wasn’t set up for us to understand how Angel came to this conclusion. Maybe take another episode to see him get too comfortable and lose a victim. Then I’d understand his position.

I do think there is something to be said for the fact that if he had kept the ring and had begun to integrate into humanity so much he forgot what his mission was, he would forget his place amongst the forgotten, that I can relate to at least from the perspective of the story. But I also really don’t buy it. Even if he has the ring, he is still dead, needs to drink blood, he still is haunted by his past acts. I think despite his ability to live in the light he would be drawn to the night.

At the end of the day. Part of me wonders if he doesn’t feel like he deserves the light. Same as he will give it up again in a few episodes.
 
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Joan the Vampire Slayer

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I mean it didn't enhance his abilities in any way so he could still be restrained and the ring removed if need be so I don't see why he didn't just keep it and take advantage of the perks that it gave.

I always interpreted it as Angel didn't trust himself with the power of the ring, so we got rid of it.
 

EarthLogic

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Even if he has the ring, he is still dead, needs to drink blood, he still is haunted by his past acts. I think despite his ability to live in he might he would be drawn to the night.
True, but then you've pointed out the deeper truth anyway:
At the end of the day. Part of me wonders if he doesn’t feel like he deserves the light.
I think he feels like the ring is too easy a fix. And possibly the things you've just mentioned might be another factor - the ability to walk in the in the sun provided by the ring would just be an illusion of humanity and redemption rather than the real thing* because like you say every other aspect of his vampirism would still be present. In fact it might be even more painful for him to be so close to the human world and yet still be so greatly separated from it. I think Angel would feel like he's living a lie.

*I think Marcus draws this out during the torture:

Marcus: 'You hid the ring Angel, or you could be walking in the light right now. So I have to wonder: what do you want if not the ring?'
...
Angel: “I want - - forgiveness.”
Marcus: “Yes. That’s the truth, - and you want to earn it. You’re not the type that takes the easy way out."
 
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Mrs Gordo

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@EarthLogic and couldn’t he just have said something along those lines instead of what amounted to the LAPD night shift is subpar?

And another thing, Angel in Season 1 was walking all over the freaking city in the day. Using the convenient sewage excuse. Sometimes I swear I saw him accidentally in direct sun in s1. I need to go back and watch but I remember the show took some liberties that first season he was always very well lit. His office was FULL of windows. Seems dangerous for him. Lol.
 

EarthLogic

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@EarthLogic and couldn’t he just have said something along those lines instead instead of what amounted to the LAPD night shift is subpar
But wouldn't the point be that even the LAPD night shift couldn't handle the things Angel faces and rescues people from? And besides for the viewer he doesn't need to say those things again. For us his reasoning has already been laid out over the episode, so really the final scene is for Doyle. Doyle even mentions the deserving/flagellation issue anyway, and then goes on to suggest the idea of daytime help, which becomes another reason Angel has to shoot down.

And another thing, Angel in Season 1 was walking all over the freaking city in the day. Using the convenient sewage excuse. Sometimes I swear I saw him accidentally in direct sun in s1.
Lol, yeah he did!

Something else he should have pointed out - the gem in no way fixes the curse! If he lost his soul again, Angelus would be invincible!
 
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Mrs Gordo

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Something else he should have pointed out - the gem in no way fixes the curse! If he lost his soul again, Angelus would be invincible!

Woah. mind = blown. Didn't think of that. Very true.

Anyway you shake it Angel had to give the ring up. It wouldn't work for his character, his story, it would be dangerous etc etc etc.
 

EarthLogic

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@EarthLogic and couldn’t he just have said something along those lines instead of what amounted to the LAPD night shift is subpar?
Just realised he did basically sum up the easy fix/illusion argument:

DOYLE
Care to explain? I mean, this ring is your redemption. It's what you've been waiting for.

ANGEL
No. It just looks like it.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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I think it might be useful, and I think that if some way could have been found to protect it from Vampires and their minions, that they should have kept it around, and that Angel would need such a device at some point in the future. And that was clearly Angel's original decision. However, it's very clearly an evil artifact, and ultimately, I agree with his logic and would have to support his decision to destroy it.
 
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