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Should Angel have just kept the Gem of Amara?

SunnydaleGlitz

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Sep 25, 2017
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266
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Sineya
For plot purposes, I understand why it was necessary to destroy it. But within the 'verse, it seems an illogical waste to have destroyed it.

I feel like the main problem was that it was a visible ring that could be taken off, mid-fight, leaving the vampire in a high risk situation. If not immediately dead in sunlight.

But if the problem was that it was a visible, pull-off-able ring, why wear it publicly in the form of a ring?! Why didn't anyone think of this? It's called the GEM of Amara, not the ring of Amara, so if it was only the gem that was vital, couldn't it have been plucked out and worn differently? Concealed, or perhaps even swallowed, where no one could get it, and wouldn't it have caused permanent invincibility?

I can't imagine why a vampire, even a "noble" vampire like Angel, didn't think this through more carefully/ strategically. There were so many ways to get around it! He could have simply swallowed the Gem, after pretending he'd destroyed it. Or worn it as a hidden piercing underneath clothes. Or had an operation where it would be permanently sutured/attached to some internal organ where it would always remain (kind of like Spike's chip had been implanted.)
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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Given that the Buffy verse didn't really have any guardians at that point in the story, aside from the Watcher's Council and arguably Whistler, it was really either destroy it or become it's full time guardian. The Oracles weren't around yet, the Church was never developed beyond that one episode at the end of season 1, W&H was still an unknown factor, the covens, the priesthoods, the random cave demon all really weren't part of the lore yet. So you couldn't really leave it with anyone.
 

Steven123

Angel's Buddy
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For plot purposes, I understand why it was necessary to destroy it. But within the 'verse, it seems an illogical waste to have destroyed it.

I feel like the main problem was that it was a visible ring that could be taken off, mid-fight, leaving the vampire in a high risk situation. If not immediately dead in sunlight.

But if the problem was that it was a visible, pull-off-able ring, why wear it publicly in the form of a ring?! Why didn't anyone think of this? It's called the GEM of Amara, not the ring of Amara, so if it was only the gem that was vital, couldn't it have been plucked out and worn differently? Concealed, or perhaps even swallowed, where no one could get it, and wouldn't it have caused permanent invincibility?

I can't imagine why a vampire, even a "noble" vampire like Angel, didn't think this through more carefully/ strategically. There were so many ways to get around it! He could have simply swallowed the Gem, after pretending he'd destroyed it. Or worn it as a hidden piercing underneath clothes. Or had an operation where it would be permanently sutured/attached to some internal organ where it would always remain (kind of like Spike's chip had been implanted.)


I think if you look at it from a very skeptical and basic view...it's a ring..typically worn on your finger. Yes it's called the Gem, but the Gem is the center piece of a RING in this instance, again something typically worn on the finger. I think if you were to go the distance and say as you suggest have it concealed all the time, it would completely change what Angel is.

If he was to have the ring all the time, concealed, nobody knows about it, why would he continue to help people in L.A, why not try to reconcile and try again with Buffy (Obviously there are limits there) but he could withstand sunlight which in the least would give them a tiny bit of normality in that aspect, for what they would consider normal anyway. The show and Angel would lose that "vampire" appeal/feel. He becomes a vampire with a soul who can withstand sunlight and has no vampire vulnerabilities, so in essence, it's not really Angel.

I get the point you are making though, this was talked about a long time ago, why didn't he keep it for certain situations etc, if he had then other situations would have became much easier obviously. But in terms of destroying the ring you can see why even in terms of a potential story arc , the ring would be a constant target that would have to be defend, basically makes it a huge story line about a gem in my opinion.... , but as I said, I would have liked it to have remained for a future battle.
 

crazysoulless

Scooby
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
1,099
Location
Las Vegas, US
Buffy views her Scythe the same way Xena views her Chakram. In both instances, it was an ancient weapon meant for a chosen one and its origin discovered in a pagan temple.

I initially agreed with Angel destroying the Gem of Amara in the same way I initially agreed with him leaving Buffy. It's already been stated. They represent forgiveness and happiness but he didn't think he deserved to be rewarded when he just started the road to redemption. It's supposed to be the hard path, the one less traveled.

But then he started to see AI as a business and by s2 he owned a 68 bedroom hotel. Buffy never gets paid, has to have crap jobs (waitress, fast food worker, community funded counselor) to support herself and others, spends hours every night on patrol, and her entire house can fit inside the Hyperion lobby. He was not as humble as he was in s1. He was a lonely hero pining for the love (Buffy) he sacrificed and living in an only slightly metaphorical bat cave then he became a Champion with lots of friends, went out to group dinners, dressed up for the ballet, celebrated their birthdays, and had the money to pay for foreign vacations. That actually made him better off than she was.

Seriously, Anne was running a homeless shelter and Angel had 66 spare bedrooms. And in BtVS s7, Buffy was pretty much doing the same when she housed dozens of girls seeking asylum, trying to fit them all in a 3 bedroom 1 bath surburban house. He kicked his teenage son out of his home and forced him to live in an abandoned building.

I hope I'm not sounding anti-Angel.
 

Steven123

Angel's Buddy
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Buffy views her Scythe the same way Xena views her Chakram. In both instances, it was an ancient weapon meant for a chosen one and its origin discovered in a pagan temple.

I initially agreed with Angel destroying the Gem of Amara in the same way I initially agreed with him leaving Buffy. It's already been stated. They represent forgiveness and happiness but he didn't think he deserved to be rewarded when he just started the road to redemption. It's supposed to be the hard path, the one less traveled.

But then he started to see AI as a business and by s2 he owned a 68 bedroom hotel. Buffy never gets paid, has to have crap jobs (waitress, fast food worker, community funded counselor) to support herself and others, spends hours every night on patrol, and her entire house can fit inside the Hyperion lobby. He was not as humble as he was in s1. He was a lonely hero pining for the love (Buffy) he sacrificed and living in an only slightly metaphorical bat cave then he became a Champion with lots of friends, went out to group dinners, dressed up for the ballet, celebrated their birthdays, and had the money to pay for foreign vacations. That actually made him better off than she was.

Seriously, Anne was running a homeless shelter and Angel had 66 spare bedrooms. And in BtVS s7, Buffy was pretty much doing the same when she housed dozens of girls seeking asylum, trying to fit them all in a 3 bedroom 1 bath surburban house. He kicked his teenage son out of his home and forced him to live in an abandoned building.

I hope I'm not sounding anti-Angel.


Isn't AI a business as such? I think the circumstances between Buffy/Angel, although similar in many ways, are also very different. I mean for Buffy it's her 'job' for lack of a better sentence, she's the slayer, she has to patrol, it's what she has and what she has to do, and who would pay her? It's not as if Sunnydale even after everything, seem to still be able to fully accept or even acknowledge that demons are around, so she's not going to be funded from the town to protect the town.

Where as with Angel investigations, he has employees, people who are choosing to work for him, rather than be on a 'mission' , and while they "fight the good fight" , they OFFER services to people in a huge city, this is what we can offer you, this is what it will cost, if Buffy went door to door marketing her services, how many people would give her that look and close the door?

Again in comparison you have to look at the huge contrast between Sunnydale and L.A , not to mention that Angel through fighting is also giving command at W&H which in its self brings everything they need without needing financial aid any more.

There are so many things you could question about it, why didn't Slayers get money from the council? Why were they expected to come from nothing as such, be trained as a Slayer, never make a penny, and be expected to save everyone? I suspect that's the 'burden' sort of thing they wanted to portrait.
 

crazysoulless

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Messages
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Isn't AI a business as such? I think the circumstances between Buffy/Angel, although similar in many ways, are also very different. I mean for Buffy it's her 'job' for lack of a better sentence, she's the slayer, she has to patrol, it's what she has and what she has to do, and who would pay her? It's not as if Sunnydale even after everything, seem to still be able to fully accept or even acknowledge that demons are around, so she's not going to be funded from the town to protect the town.

Where as with Angel investigations, he has employees, people who are choosing to work for him, rather than be on a 'mission' , and while they "fight the good fight" , they OFFER services to people in a huge city, this is what we can offer you, this is what it will cost, if Buffy went door to door marketing her services, how many people would give her that look and close the door?

Again in comparison you have to look at the huge contrast between Sunnydale and L.A , not to mention that Angel through fighting is also giving command at W&H which in its self brings everything they need without needing financial aid any more.

There are so many things you could question about it, why didn't Slayers get money from the council? Why were they expected to come from nothing as such, be trained as a Slayer, never make a penny, and be expected to save everyone? I suspect that's the 'burden' sort of thing they wanted to portrait.

Buffy would probably say that while she didn't choose to have power, she chose what to do with that power. "I use the power that I have." But her sense of morality is so strong being the Slayer in more than just species was her only real choice since she couldn't walk away knowing she had the power to help despite the damage it did to her life.

It's true that Sunnydale while a Hellmouth is teeny in size to a major city. But Buffy was born & raised in LA and had she gotten to stay there Whedon & the writers wouldn't let her charge for her services. In the comics she lives in San Francisco and isn't allowed to charge.

AI is a business but the Fang Gang act as if it is that and a selfless mission. They talk about being "champions" and believe they're working for & guided by the Powers That Be. It's like they're being paid to be Scoobies. If they weren't allowed to ever charge and had to get outside jobs, would they devote so much time and effort to AI?

Angel is trying to atone without expecting any rewards and yet he's allowed to make money off it even though he owns the hotel and never has to pay rent on property he has lived (apartment, mansion, office combo).

Xander had a full-time job. Anya had a full-time job. Buffy had a full-time job. So it's possible to support yourself while saving the world each week.
 

Steven123

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Buffy would probably say that while she didn't choose to have power, she chose what to do with that power. "I use the power that I have." But her sense of morality is so strong being the Slayer in more than just species was her only real choice since she couldn't walk away knowing she had the power to help despite the damage it did to her life.

It's true that Sunnydale while a Hellmouth is teeny in size to a major city. But Buffy was born & raised in LA and had she gotten to stay there Whedon & the writers wouldn't let her charge for her services. In the comics she lives in San Francisco and isn't allowed to charge.

AI is a business but the Fang Gang act as if it is that and a selfless mission. They talk about being "champions" and believe they're working for & guided by the Powers That Be. It's like they're being paid to be Scoobies. If they weren't allowed to ever charge and had to get outside jobs, would they devote so much time and effort to AI?

Angel is trying to atone without expecting any rewards and yet he's allowed to make money off it even though he owns the hotel and never has to pay rent on property he has lived (apartment, mansion, office combo).

Xander had a full-time job. Anya had a full-time job. Buffy had a full-time job. So it's possible to support yourself while saving the world each week.


It depends what aspect you look at it though. When Angel took over the hotel, did he do it because it was vacant? Or was it because that it was a very much sentimental place for him after what had happened in that episode? Cordelia regularly (early on) goes to auditions etc, yes probably more so because she wants to be famous, but she wants everything that comes with that, and gaining auditions and getting parts, pays money.

Again on the flip side if you were to look at it as, once Angel got his soul, how many years did he live on the streets, in gutters, anywhere, feeding off rats etc and anything else? Surely that would be work it's way back around to be able to have somewhere comfortable at some point? And once you get to the later seasons once they take over at W&H, as I said, everything is ready made and provided there anyway, it would be the same if it was reversed, would Buffy and the Scooby's turn it down in order to continue to struggle financially etc?

I think the fact is that Buffy is aimed at being the average, unassuming high school girl who has these amazing abilities, saves others, saves the world, but still has to try and hold down a full time job, even from the very first episode, that we seen, we are watching high school kids growing up, facing every day struggles plus more, this is something that we do in real life every day , where as with Angel, we know who he is, what he's done, and where he's trying to go, does he necessarily NEED money himself? Probably not, does he need a comfortable bed, house, work place etc? Again, probably not, his intentions while to help people, the opportunity of it being a business came up and that's where it went. Again this is looking at it very rationally if you were to try and summarize it up.
 

LilahFan

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Mar 14, 2018
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35
Nah it would have been dangerous to both himself and his friends.

Regardless of if he wears it or not because eventually he has to go to sleep, and if he works in the day and sleeps at night there's no one to protect the helpless at night, then eventually all those evil vampires will look to get the ring off of him to do more damage in the day.

Another thing that might have happened is Wolf-ram and hart getting their hands on it, then who knows what would happen if they start recruiting vampires. Especially if it ends up on the finger of Drusilla.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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I always thought it could've been useful down the line. It could've been used for emergencies. Buffy and Faith could've taken care of Angelus.
 

KaitKat

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I honestly think that Buffy giving Angel the ring in the first place shows that she still has a romanticized view of him and backs up the theory that she didn’t always take the threat of Angelus returning as seriously as she should have. No person or demon with a soul that isn’t exactly permanently anchored should ever have that much power or be indestructible. The threat of other vampires isn’t the problem the threat of Angelus is the problem. I also honestly couldn’t think of a bigger cluster than Buffy being the only one who knows where the ring is or it being clocked to everyone except Buffy. What if Angelus would have came back after Season 5 when Buffy was dead and nobody knew that the reason that they couldn’t kill him was because he had the ring? What happens when Willow the only witch who can ensoul Angelus dies and now nobody can kill him or rensoul him? This is where I finally start to believe that he’s a 240 year old vampire that actually gained some wisdom on the way.
 

Dogs of Winter

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It makes sense to me. Angel was clearly worried what would happen if he turned again.

But he also wanted to help the most helpless and that meant being around at night. He knew if he could go out during the day he may end up spending more and more time in the light and stop seeing those in the night who needed him most

I dont see the point in giving it back to Buffy. She had given it to Angel to do with as he wished, it would only benefit a vampire and at the time the one vampire Buffy would want to wear it was Angel.

And if he had hid it or put it in a bank vault then Angelus could have retrieved it if he ever lost his soul again.

It was also more poetic this way and the Buffyverse has always been about the grand gestures. If Angel could roam around in the light it would have changed him and the show too much
 
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