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Should Buffy have been gay?

RachM

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Now I'm wondering about the Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike storylines playing out ... but with Darla and Drusilla instead :D

Although, given the personalities of the two female vampires, I can more see Drusilla being the tortured, broody ensouled vampire whom Buffy falls in love with, and Darla being the problematic, Bad Girl vampire whom Buffy uses for sex when she's all PTSD and depressed.

That being said, I think Drusilla would get more attached to Buffy than Darla would ... this whole Buffy-Being-Gay/Bisexual thing opens up a world of fanfic AU possibilities!
 

Priceless

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Well it wouldn't be the exact same Maggie Walsh. Yes, she'd still be building Adam and running an undercover government agency, but through Buffy's eyes we'd see a softer side to Maggie. She might have to be recast as a younger actress, but I think it could work.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
They would've already done the evil lover angle in Season 2.

thrasherpix

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Since Buffy got dumber in college (because she fell for seduction ploys she brushed off as a high schooler, simply because Joss felt that college girls are that way so Buffy must be that way even though she wasn't before) I could see her seduced by Maggie Walsh who ultimately betrayed Buffy, especially after Buffy turns against her experiment once Maggie lets her in on it (maybe Maggie even felt something for Buffy, but her obsession overrode sentiment, especially if she felt angry and heartbroken that Buffy rejected her work, or maybe it's when Buffy saves Oz...).

Still, if Buffy is part of the Initiative as she was then it has all the problems of Giles/Buffy.
 

TriBel

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Well it wouldn't be the exact same Maggie Walsh. Yes, she'd still be building Adam and running an undercover government agency, but through Buffy's eyes we'd see a softer side to Maggie. She might have to be recast as a younger actress, but I think it could work.
Cate Blanchett or Gillian Anderson? I can see them with a softer side. ;)
 
Priceless
Priceless
I don't think you're taking my Maggie-Walsh-as-love-interest seriously :-)

TriBel

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@Priceless "I don't think you're taking my Maggie-Walsh-as-love-interest seriously :)"

I wasn't :D ....then I saw some more comments and reconsidered...so I'm half-serious about Blanchett and Anderson.

TBH, I need to think it through. She's like Dr Frankenstein...yeah? The Dr Frankenstein who appropriated the role of both God and Woman...I'm "figuring"... Is Prof Walsh the phallic mother?

Happy to be fully persuaded. :)
 

Honoria Dedlock

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I know you guys are probably joking, but the whole Maggie/Buffy pairing sounds a lot more interesting than the schiebedreck we actually got in season four. ..

Gillian Anderson could pull it off. Imagine those hurt yearning looks she would give to Buffy during the psychology lectures. And maybe Willow could figure out somethings going on when she sees Buffy getting a higher grade than her...
 
Priceless
Priceless
Honestly I wasn't joking. If Buffy were bi in S4, instead of Riley I think Maggie would have been a really interesting relationship, and still involving the initiative.

Mr Trick

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@Btvs fan But that's in Britain which is a different market. Its not a major network like this would have been. Its telling how far American TV has come that its now much more common to see gay relationships on US shows than UK today.
 

Honoria Dedlock

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@Btvs fan But that's in Britain which is a different market. Its not a major network like this would have been. Its telling how far American TV has come that its now much more common to see gay relationships on US shows than UK today.
UK television often had less restrictions. American networks were beholden to some very conservative sponsors...UK in a way was ahead of the curve. Bad Girls was popular outside of lbgt viewers, I was an eleven year old school boy and I used to watch it after Yu-Gi-Oh...I remember talking about it with classmates! There were also tons of gay themed European movies aired, particularly French ones.

Compare that in America to the L word which came out years later and had to be targeted specifically to gay women. Mostly it seemed like Americans had to separate their gay audiences, with people like Willow and Tara and David from Six Feet Under being the exceptions and not the norm.
 

Mr Trick

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UK television often had less restrictions. American networks were beholden to some very conservative sponsors...UK in a way was ahead of the curve. Bad Girls was popular outside of lbgt viewers, I was an eleven year old school boy and I used to watch it after Yu-Gi-Oh...I remember talking about it with classmates! There were also tons of gay themed European movies aired, particularly French ones.

Compare that in America to the L word which came out years later and had to be targeted specifically to gay women. Mostly it seemed like Americans had to separate their gay audiences, with people like Willow and Tara and David from Six Feet Under being the exceptions and not the norm.
But that's the way it used to be. What I'm saying is things have changed. American TV shows are now much more diverse than UK ones. I think part of the reason for that is that a lot of British shows tend to period pieces or genres that tend reproduce the typical sort of middle class, white, straight characters. This is another positive about to the streaming age. The likes of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu wouldn't have the issues like more traditional Networks.
 

Honoria Dedlock

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But that's the way it used to be. What I'm saying is things have changed. American TV shows are now much more diverse than UK ones. I think part of the reason for that is that a lot of British shows tend to period pieces or genres that tend reproduce the typical sort of middle class, white, straight characters. This is another positive about to the streaming age. The likes of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu wouldn't have the issues like more traditional Networks.
I agree with you about American TV being more diverse...but I disagree about UK being less so, although you're right about the BBC literary adaptations.

An example being 'The Bisexual' . That show is about an Iranian woman in a relationship with another woman who nevertheless feels judged about being attracted to men by her lesbian friends. I can't think of anything that ticks more boxes for 'diversity' and yet the showrunner couldn't get it picked up in America, she had to go to Channel 4. And that's a recent show.

And in terms of cinema/movies, Hollywood is probably the least diverse in the world...
 

katmobile

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UK television often had less restrictions. American networks were beholden to some very conservative sponsors...UK in a way was ahead of the curve. Bad Girls was popular outside of lbgt viewers, I was an eleven year old school boy and I used to watch it after Yu-Gi-Oh...I remember talking about it with classmates! There were also tons of gay themed European movies aired, particularly French ones.

Compare that in America to the L word which came out years later and had to be targeted specifically to gay women. Mostly it seemed like Americans had to separate their gay audiences, with people like Willow and Tara and David from Six Feet Under being the exceptions and not the norm.
Never mind Bad Girls just google Brookside and Beth Jordache - that's right the ok had lesbians in soap operas in the 80s and a male gay couple (Colin and Barry) in EastEnders another soap opera also in the 80s.
 

Altoz

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For the record, the thought that Buffy might be lesbian never occurred to me during the lifetime of the series. She always seemed to be an empowered straight woman to me. In any case, Joss seems to have a double standard when it comes to lesbians and gay men. Lesbians get a nice soft focus love relationship which is sensitively handled and sympathetically rendered. The audience is left in no doubt about the legitimacy of Willow and Tara's relationship, especially when Tara's family shows up to reclaim her and both Buffy and Xander stand up for her. After that, they seem to accept her relationship- enough for Buffy to question her humanity with, and entrust her to scrutinise it. Enough for Buffy to be held by Tara. As for Xander, I liked his honest expression of grief at Tara's death and anger at Warren for Willow's suffering as a consequence. That sounds like he accepted their relationship.

As for gay men... okay, so Larry came out to Xander. But we never saw Larry's boyfriend, or anything resembling a Sunnydale lesbian or gay bar/s. and Larry died at the end of Season 3 anyway. Andrew Wells was an infuriating closet case and too damned stereotyped. As for Lorne, at least he was more effective, but like Andrew, he was totally celibate. He flirted with the male customers but he was never shown with a male love interest. Added to which, there were no lesbian or gay characters whatsoever when it came to Dollhouse, Firefly and Agents of SHIELD.
Getting back to Buffy herself... the problem here seems to be the straight metahuman female dilemma. You're a young straight metahuman wo,man and the issue is that you're more powerful than most straight men. Relationships and ongoing sex lives are going to be a problem unless you hook up with equally powerful guys. Hence Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike, and why her interlude with Riley didn't actually work out in practice. And at the very end of the extended series, Buffy, Willow and Faith all end up single. Okay, that's a legitimate choice, but also a damning one., In the case of Buffy and Faith, what it says that egalitarian heterosexual relationships are impossible. In Willow's case, the conclusion is much the same for lesbian metahumans. Okay, so they're not exactly alone in all that- exactly the same can be said in the context of Jack Harkness in the context of Torchwood, and Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Power Girl and Captain Marvel all seem to be single. Which is all very well, and singleton status is defensible too, but at the cost of intimacy and ongoing relationships of any kind?
 

DeadlyDuo

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As for gay men... okay, so Larry came out to Xander. But we never saw Larry's boyfriend,
I don't think Larry had a boyfriend. He certainly wouldn't have had one before he came out, and afterwards, I think he was just enjoying his sexuality being out in the open and not having to hide it anymore. Admitting he was gay doesn't automatically mean he has to jump into a gay relationship.

or anything resembling a Sunnydale lesbian or gay bar/s.
The show had no reason to show a lesbian/gay bar. The focus revolves around the scoobies, who tend to go out socialising together. Buffy and Xander would find a gay bar awkward and you know the writers would have a gay guy hit on Xander and it would awkwardly be played for laughs. Also the show is only going to build a limited amount of sets that they can reuse, they're not going to get much usage out of a "gay bar" set unlike with "The Bronze" set because the majority of the characters aren't gay and thus wouldn't likely be choosing to go there regularly.


Relationships and ongoing sex lives are going to be a problem unless you hook up with equally powerful guys. Hence Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike, and why her interlude with Riley didn't actually work out in practice.
I always wondered if Spike's taunt "Did you bruise the boy?" in regards to Parker does have a basis in truth. Buffy kicked Riley across the room and that was with her still holding back, in the throes of passion, she might not have that control so bruising could happen. It could also possibly explain the change in Riley's behaviour between Seasons 4 & 5. The super soldier drugs would've been wearing off, so it's likely that Riley is sustaining more bruising than he would've whilst on the drugs. As a result, he begins to feel weak in comparison to Buffy, hence his red flag behaviour towards her.

And at the very end of the extended series, Buffy, Willow and Faith all end up single. Okay, that's a legitimate choice, but also a damning one., In the case of Buffy and Faith, what it says that egalitarian heterosexual relationships are impossible.
Not true. Faith is kind of with Wood.

Just because Riley took issue with Buffy's strength, doesn't mean other men would. Xander would've happily hopped into bed with Buffy in the early seasons.

In Willow's case, the conclusion is much the same for lesbian metahumans.
Willow ended the series with Kennedy (though she would've been better off single) because the writers were responding to fan backlash over the "kill your gays" trope. Kennedy was an awful character.

Okay, so they're not exactly alone in all that- exactly the same can be said in the context of Jack Harkness in the context of Torchwood, and Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Power Girl and Captain Marvel all seem to be single. Which is all very well, and singleton status is defensible too, but at the cost of intimacy and ongoing relationships of any kind?
Trends seem to swing from one extreme to the other. Too many white male leads? Flood tv and movies with female leads who don't "need a man", bonus points if she's POC and/or gay.
 

NothingVentured

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I don't think Larry had a boyfriend. He certainly wouldn't have had one before he came out, and afterwards, I think he was just enjoying his sexuality being out in the open and not having to hide it anymore. Admitting he was gay doesn't automatically mean he has to jump into a gay relationship.
He did say he was quite out and his grandma(?) was setting him up with guys. Could have been a joke. Either way, the point stands that he was a super minor character.

Not true. Faith is kind of with Wood.
I am assuming they are referring to the comics. At the end of the verse on TV, all three were in relationships as far as we know unless W/K and F/W broke up offscreen.

Just because Riley took issue with Buffy's strength, doesn't mean other men would. Xander would've happily hopped into bed with Buffy in the early seasons.
So did Riley. There are quite a few indications that Xander would have ended up the same way. Even as late as S6 he's constantly belittling himself as useless and he took umbrage when Buffy wanted to send him away in EoD/Chosen. His whole talk to Dawn was about him being lesser than those around him.
 

Altoz

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Yeah, I am talking about the comics. Buffy, Willow and Faith don't end up with ongoing relationships at the end of the comic continuation. Willow runs a womens aid organisation and Faith and Buffy work for the LAPD. The only ones who end up happily coupled are Dawn and Xander, who even have a baby together. Okay, Andrew does finally come out in the comics (uh huh. The Scoobies are living in San Francisco at that point!??!!) Right. So, if you;re a straight female metahuman, you might as well give up hope when it comes to intimacy and relationships, because you can't have that and a successful mainstream career. Or, in Willow's case, lesbian metahuman. It's even more insidious in that context because Willow's a lesbian and the 'solution' to that is either casual relationships or celibracy. Sorry, ick.
 

DeadlyDuo

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To be fair, Faith and Willow are better off without Wood and Kennedy respectively.

Faith isn't stuck with a guy who has an Oedipus complex about slayers, whilst Willow is free from the self-entitled brat that is Kennedy.
 

Give Us A Kiss

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While Buffy/Maggie Walsh, Buffy/Darla and Buffy/Drusilla are all interesting concepts to play with, I'd rather have Buffy/Faith, the subtext is so obvious in season 3...
To be fair, Faith and Willow are better off without Wood and Kennedy respectively.
Thank you !
Wood doesn't deserve Faith and Kennedy doesn't deserve Willow.
 
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