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Shouldn't Darla have been cursed as well as Angelus?

Slayerofslayers

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In the Angel episode "Five by Five," we see that it was Darla who kidnapped the gypsy girl from their clan and took her to be killed by Angelus. She also watched as Angelus killed her. If Darla hadn't kidnapped the girl, then Angelus wouldn't have known about her, killed her, and he wouldn't have been cursed by the gypsies. I think that Darla then shares some of the blame for her death because Angelus wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill the girl if Darla hadn't brought her to him and she watched and encouraged her murder as Angelus killed her. It seems that if the gypsies knew that Darla had been a participant in the girl's murder that they would have cursed her as well as punishment.

So did the gypsies not know that Darla was the one that kidnapped her and just assumed it was Angelus since he was the one that killed her? How did they even find out it was him that killed her when Darla was the one that went to their clan and kidnapped her and Angelus killed her in a secluded home? They must of found the body, but they didn't see him actually kill her. Maybe they saw him try to get rid of the body?

What I'm trying to get at is that I think that the particular death of this gypsy girl is both the fault of Angelus and Darla. Angelus is more to blame, of course, but it wouldn't have happened if Darla hadn't brought her to him as a gift. Shouldn't Darla have been cursed as well then? What would have happened if the gypsies knew both of them had caused her death? Would they have cursed both of them or only Angelus since he is the one that actually killed her? Darla was a viscous monster just like Angelus and she had been at it for longer than he had, and she taught him a lot of the cruelty that he thrived in. So she had a similar amount to suffer for and deserved to be cursed with a soul just as much as Angel. But it seemed like the gypsies didn't know that she had been involved. What do you guys think would have happened if both Angelus and Darla had been cursed with a soul? Would they have tried to figure things out together or still part ways? Would they have tried to stay with Spike and Dru or would they go off together trying to figure things out together? How would Spike and Dru react to them both having souls? How would both of them being cursed by the gypsies affect the history that happened and what happened on both shows in general?

This is my first thread by the way besides the introducing yourself thread so yay for my first thread. I hope that it's an interesting one lol.
 

white avenger

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Within the context of the show, the Gypsies probably chose to curse Angelus because he was the one most directly responsible for the girl's death, he was the leader of the vampire group, and, I suspect, the spell was very difficult to perform (which might explain the "moment of complete happiness" escape clause, since that could make the spell, in effect, only temporary, therefore easier to cast. Just my opinion, of course) They were focused on the "man in charge."

As for the character as presented in the series, and the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, I think that the writers had to come up with a way to make Angel both a vampire and not evil, plus, of course, he would be the "one vampire in all the world..." just like Buffy was the "one girl in all the world..."since he was supposed to be Buffy's love interest. If they had given Darla a soul, Angel wouldn't have had that uniqueness. Plus, I think, by the time that the decision was made to make Angel a vampire, Darla was already established as totally evil
 

Bluebird

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which might explain the "moment of complete happiness" escape clause, since that could make the spell, in effect, only temporary, therefore easier to cast. Just my opinion, of course

That's a cool theory, I like it. Because the curse doesn't make a whole lot of sense if they had complete power. I mean I understand the 'moment of happiness' as a kind of poetic justice, but it's problematic when you think of vampires and souls in the literal sense, which both shows ended up exploring. There were other ways to resoul vampires that were truly permanent, like the demon Spike went to. I bet Willow had that kind of power by the end too.
 

Slayerofslayers

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Within the context of the show, the Gypsies probably chose to curse Angelus because he was the one most directly responsible for the girl's death, he was the leader of the vampire group, and, I suspect, the spell was very difficult to perform (which might explain the "moment of complete happiness" escape clause, since that could make the spell, in effect, only temporary, therefore easier to cast. Just my opinion, of course) They were focused on the "man in charge."

As for the character as presented in the series, and the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, I think that the writers had to come up with a way to make Angel both a vampire and not evil, plus, of course, he would be the "one vampire in all the world..." just like Buffy was the "one girl in all the world..."since he was supposed to be Buffy's love interest. If they had given Darla a soul, Angel wouldn't have had that uniqueness. Plus, I think, by the time that the decision was made to make Angel a vampire, Darla was already established as totally evil

Those are good points. It probably would have been too much effort on their part to do the spell for both of them. And it does make Angel's arc and that story line unique if only one vampire has a soul (But they changed that later on anyways when they gave Spike a soul lol). I just think it's interesting because Angelus never would have killed her if it hadn't been for Darla. But I still don't get how they knew it was Angelus in the first place when Darla is the one that kidnapped her and they didn't see him kill her. Did they use magic to find out who killed her and that's why they overlooked how she was taken from the camp? Did they know about Darla's involvement or just ignore it because Angelus was the one who killed her? Or was the Whirlwind so infamous throughout Europe that the way she was killed they assumed it was one of them and knew about Angelus because of how widespread his name was for how much evil he would cause and that he was the most infamous of the four?
 
I feel that Darla having to watch Angelus transformation was torture enough for her. Perhaps her age made her harder to cast a spell on? She lost her love.

I hadn't thought of it in that way. So she actually did suffer punishment for the gypsy girl's death by not having Angelus be the same and losing him when he left. Don't think that was their intention when they did the curse but still that's an interesting point. But I think that pain was a lot smaller though compared to what Angelus endured by the actual curse so she got off a lot easier than Angelus did considering the girl wouldn't have died if she hadn't helped cause it.
 

Octavia

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I do agree the pain Darla experienced would be small compared with Angels experience.

Initially I had thought that the Gypsys had not known of Darlas involvement, but vaguely remember her on talking terms with the camp leader later - after the spell and when Darla is seeking revenge. In that time, as you mentioned, they may not have heard her name so much as the famous Angelus - who wanted everyone to know him. Darla always seemed slightly more cautious with spreading her name around. (What did they say in s4? All these names been thown around, takes the power away :p truth because they target the one who is named).
 

white avenger

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But I still don't get how they knew it was Angelus in the first place when Darla is the one that kidnapped her and they didn't see him kill her.

Remember, we're talking about Angelus here. He probably bragged about killing the Gypsy princess, and maybe even sent the body back to her prople with a note thanking them for the sweet snack. That's his style. Darla, on the other hand, just makes her kill and moves on, which is probably why they never knew that she was involved until after the spell had been cast.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Wasn't it hinted that Angelus did a little more than just kill the gypsy girl?

Darla tried to make a deal with the Gypsy leader in exchange for his family's safety until Spike emerged having just killed them which suggests the leader might've known who Darla was.

Perhaps that's why Angelus was cursed with a soul, because he didn't just kill the girl but did other things to her beforehand so his punishment was to be tormented by his actions via the soul?
 

Slayerofslayers

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Remember, we're talking about Angelus here. He probably bragged about killing the Gypsy princess, and maybe even sent the body back to her prople with a note thanking them for the sweet snack. That's his style. Darla, on the other hand, just makes her kill and moves on, which is probably why they never knew that she was involved until after the spell had been cast.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. So they probably just assumed he was the only one involved and saw how deliberate and cruel he was in showcasing the art of the kill that it made it even worse for them because they were already upset about their favored girl dying and how Angelus tends to flaunt it made them even more upset with him. So they cursed him to make him pay for it. I don't think they knew at all that Darla had been involved then.
 
Wasn't it hinted that Angelus did a little more than just kill the gypsy girl?

Darla tried to make a deal with the Gypsy leader in exchange for his family's safety until Spike emerged having just killed them which suggests the leader might've known who Darla was.

Perhaps that's why Angelus was cursed with a soul, because he didn't just kill the girl but did other things to her beforehand so his punishment was to be tormented by his actions via the soul?

Yeah I think it was hinted that he did some terrible things to her beforehand. He certainly tortured her as we see in that scene he bites her leg instead of going for the kill so we can assume what he did to her was beyond just killing her. What I'm trying to say with this thread is that if they knew that Darla had been involved as well and knew about the kinds of things she had done throughout her time as a vampire (she was the one that taught Angelus a lot about the art of causing evil and she seemed to be the spark for many of his schemes; she was the one that showed him Drusilla and saw the potential for her suffering since she could see the future) then they would have wanted to curse her as well since she brought the girl to him. But it makes sense that if they were only going to curse one of them it would be Angelus since he actually killed her and caused her suffering directly. While they may have known who Darla was, it doesn't seem like they knew that she was involved in the girl's death because the gypsy leader didn't seem like he was angry with her or say anything that indicated that she was involved. I feel like if he knew than he would have been more defiant towards her when she was telling him to remove the curse. Instead he just explains his reasoning of why he won't lift the curse.
 

DeadlyDuo

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While they may have known who Darla was, it doesn't seem like they knew that she was involved in the girl's death because the gypsy leader didn't seem like he was angry with her or say anything that indicated that she was involved. I feel like if he knew than he would have been more defiant towards her when she was telling him to remove the curse. Instead he just explains his reasoning of why he won't lift the curse.

The rest of the Whirlwind had obliterated the camp so I don't the gypsy leader wanted to provoke them more than necessary. Darla was offering him a deal that would've enabled him to leave alive with his family that were hiding in the wagon. Of course when Spike emerged having just killed all of those inside, Darla knew she'd lost her leverage so she just killed him. I think if that hadn't happened, Darla would've continued to pile on the pressure and the man would've eventually caved. Of course the Whirlwind would've probably killed him afterwards for kicks but Darla may have held up her end of the deal.
 

Slayerofslayers

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The rest of the Whirlwind had obliterated the camp so I don't the gypsy leader wanted to provoke them more than necessary. Darla was offering him a deal that would've enabled him to leave alive with his family that were hiding in the wagon. Of course when Spike emerged having just killed all of those inside, Darla knew she'd lost her leverage so she just killed him. I think if that hadn't happened, Darla would've continued to pile on the pressure and the man would've eventually caved. Of course the Whirlwind would've probably killed him afterwards for kicks but Darla may have held up her end of the deal.

Yeah that's true. And it did seem like he would have gave in and lifted the curse if Spike hadn't killed his family. So do you think that he did know or didn't know that Darla had been involved? That's what I'm curious about. Also I just think it's interesting that Darla influenced what caused Angelus to have his soul restored and to think about what could have happened if they had both been cursed if the gypsies had decided that they both shared the blame.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think he did know that Darla had some involvement but it was Angelus' actions that were the main issue. If it had just been a quick kill, then I think the gypsies would've still been pissed but not to the extent that they were so they might not have cast the soul curse. It was the torture that was inflicted that really made them go for Angelus.

If both Darla and Angelus had their souls restored then I think they would've cried on each other's shoulders whilst Spike and Dru would be wondering what the hell was going on.
 

Slayerofslayers

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I think he did know that Darla had some involvement but it was Angelus' actions that were the main issue. If it had just been a quick kill, then I think the gypsies would've still been pissed but not to the extent that they were so they might not have cast the soul curse. It was the torture that was inflicted that really made them go for Angelus.

If both Darla and Angelus had their souls restored then I think they would've cried on each other's shoulders whilst Spike and Dru would be wondering what the hell was going on.

That makes sense. And I feel like Darla would be angry for having to have a soul as well since she got pretty mad at Angelus for having a soul so there would definitely be some conflicting emotions going on between the two of them as well as their own internal conflict. If Spike and Dru found out what actually happened, there probably would have been a confrontation between the two couples at some point and Spike and Dru would go off on their own eventually I think.
 
I'm surprised that Drusilla didn't know that Angelus had a soul when they were destroying the camp and when they met up with him again in the Boxer Rebellion when she usually knows about things before anyone else does.
 

DeadlyDuo

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That makes sense. And I feel like Darla would be angry for having to have a soul as well since she got pretty mad at Angelus for having a soul so there would definitely be some conflicting emotions going on between the two of them as well as their own internal conflict. If Spike and Dru found out what actually happened, there probably would have been a confrontation between the two couples at some point and Spike and Dru would go off on their own eventually I think.

I agree, though I think Darla and Angelus would maybe try to reign Spike and Dru in initially without telling them the reason why. Drusilla might have been more compliable, albeit thinking she was being punished for something, whilst Spike would probably suspect something was up that he and Dru weren't being told about. He would probably be the one to provoke the confrontation between the two couples.

I'm surprised that Drusilla didn't know that Angelus had a soul when they were destroying the camp and when they met up with him again in the Boxer Rebellion when she usually knows about things before anyone else does.

I'm trying to remember how Darla knew Angelus had a soul, I think she either smelled it on him or his behaviour gave it away. Drusilla didn't see Angelus during the camp massacre hence why she was worried that he would be angry they had fun without him (which again hints at an abusive relationship between Angelus and Drusilla in that she's worried about his reaction), she only joined in when Darla told her to (again if Angelus was going to be angry at Dru, she could at least say that "Grandmother" told her to join in. It could also explain Drusilla's distress at Darla's angry reaction when she sired her, Dru thought she was doing what Darla wanted and was getting punished instead "Did I do something to displease you?").

As for why Dru couldn't tell Angel had a soul during the Boxer rebellion, there was a lot going on with various smells and she was with Spike. When she was near Angel, she was too focussed on the alley way "I smell fear" so it's likely there were so many scents that she couldn't smell his soul.
 

Slayerofslayers

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I agree, though I think Darla and Angelus would maybe try to reign Spike and Dru in initially without telling them the reason why. Drusilla might have been more compliable, albeit thinking she was being punished for something, whilst Spike would probably suspect something was up that he and Dru weren't being told about. He would probably be the one to provoke the confrontation between the two couples.



I'm trying to remember how Darla knew Angelus had a soul, I think she either smelled it on him or his behaviour gave it away. Drusilla didn't see Angelus during the camp massacre hence why she was worried that he would be angry they had fun without him (which again hints at an abusive relationship between Angelus and Drusilla in that she's worried about his reaction), she only joined in when Darla told her to (again if Angelus was going to be angry at Dru, she could at least say that "Grandmother" told her to join in. It could also explain Drusilla's distress at Darla's angry reaction when she sired her, Dru thought she was doing what Darla wanted and was getting punished instead "Did I do something to displease you?").

As for why Dru couldn't tell Angel had a soul during the Boxer rebellion, there was a lot going on with various smells and she was with Spike. When she was near Angel, she was too focussed on the alley way "I smell fear" so it's likely there were so many scents that she couldn't smell his soul.

Yeah I can definitely see that, and I agree Spike would be the one to start something with Angelus and Darla.

I watched the scene again and I think she could just tell by his behavior because he was kept talking about all the people he's killed and he was getting choked up about it. But maybe she could smell it too because I feel like at some point on either show it was revealed that vampires can smell souls but I can't remember where or if I'm remembering incorrectly.

Those are some interesting insights, I can definitely see both of those examples as being indicators that there was an abusive relationship between Drusilla and Angelus and that she was afraid of displeasing both him and Darla which makes her character even more tragic. That scene between her and Darla after Dru sires her by the way always makes me feel sad for Dru because she starts crying because she doesn't want to displease Darla. Poor Dru, she makes me so sad because of what Angelus did to her and she just wants a family again and to not be alone. That's why even though she's a sadistic killer you can't help but feel bad for her because a lot of it isn't her fault.

Those are good points about why Dru didn't know about Angelus having a soul and I agree. I just think it's interesting that she didn't have a vision about it and find out. In season two she knew about what Ethan Rayne was going to do before he did the whole halloween thing and she had a vision of Angelus losing his soul before the judge revealed that he had lost his humanity. So maybe her visions are just random and during that time she just happened to not have one about what happened to him?
 

FaithLehane16

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Well since Darla did bring that gypsy woman to Angelus, and brought Spike and Drusilla to "help" her along to kill the rest of that gypsy clan, yes.
 

ILLYRIAN

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Well I think it is obvious when the person isn't a vampire, no wrinklies. That Dru didn't realize Angelus was Angel just makes her seem more dumb than anyone could say.
Given that point does the vampire heal the person, Darla's appearance when not a vampire?
Also, I think that Darla had more *go* in her when she was on her death bed than Angel did when the gypsy's put the soul back in him (in case you don't realize it, I *might* be biased in favour of Darla).
And about why Angelus let the gypsy's let them re-soul him, where did Spike get the idea to call Angel/Angelus Captain Blockhead?
I do not consider that Darla would have allowed herself to be caught by a bunch of Romanies.
 
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