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So, The Master, who was he?

ILLYRIAN

Druish Pervonian Wizard
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or who did he think he was?
According to him and Giles he'd been around for 3 score years or on these shores for 60 years which was a load of crap 'cos he made Darla a vampire and that was more than three score years ago. Maybe Darla wasn't in the New World, was The Master the First, or was he the only vampire to have a soul?

what do you think?
 
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He made Darla a vampire 400 years ago and was later seen in London - when Darla brought Angelus to him (7 years after she'd sired him, despite him supposed to be being brand new - because maths is no friend of the Buffyverse). So he obviously went to America and then back to Europe and had returned at some point - possibly immediately before the unfortunate incident with the hellmouth and the earthquake and the collapsing church, or maybe a while before ... that's not really important, he was just in America in the 1930s - and we know he has been there at least once, centuries before but not stayed.

There is some outside the show lore for him - he has a name, I wanna say Heinrich something or other but ... I don't know what this actual lore is based on. I also don't think the lore makes him anywhere near as old as he should be but then ... maths is no friend of the buffyverse.

Things we do know - he is as old as any vampire on record. He is stuck in demon face because he has 'grown past the curse of human features' ... meaning he is old. This is in the 1760s (when he meets Angelus), but he already looked that way when he sired Darla in the early 1600s - meaning he was already 'grown past the curse of human features' in the 1600s.
Which means, if Darla is 400 and still has a human face, he must be considerably older than 400 in the early 1600s.
He isn't the only vampire to have changed on account of age - Kakistos is so old his hands are cloven. As his name is Greek I wonder if this means he is Greek - and he is from Ancient times.
Which possibly means the master and Kakistos are peers and so would put the master at about 3000 years old.

I'm always struck by how the master looks like the half way point between modern vampires and the Turok Han, however. This goes against the 'lore' as laid down outside the show but I headcanon that the master is even older than Kakistos and is in fact the first man the last pure demon to leave this dimension fed on. The original slayer fought Turok Hans, she successfully trapped them all in the hell mouth but before she did, one of them fed off a human, mixing its blood with his, ... and that human became the master. Kakistos would have been one of his earliest - and longest lasting - victims.
The Turok Han are also much harder to kill with regular sized stakes then normal vampires. When Buffy stakes Kakistos with her stake nothing happens and he says 'you're gonna need a bigger stake' - so Faith impales him with a much larger one. The master is killed first time but he too is impaled on something much larger than a normal stake, meaning perhaps - like with the Turok Han - he couldn't be killed with a regular stake which could suggest a connection between him and the neandervamps.

One point that possibly suggest him being much younger than all that, though, is the question of crosses. He is afraid of them - but would a vampire who predated the crucifixion be afraid of them? How would that work - they used to be fine with them but all of a sudden they burned?
One vampire lore of the real world is that Judas Iscariot was the original vampire, that is why they are afraid of crosses - and why stakes of ash can kill them (the wood of the cross) and why they don't like silver (30 pieces of silver).
However, not only does the show have the Turok Han acting as prehistoric vampires, informing us vampires predate Judas, but also, in school hard, one of the annointed's flunkies claims to have been at the crucifixion (there was a solar eclipse as Jesus died) and as Spike points out, if every vampire who said he was at the crucifixion actually had been it would have been like Vampire Woodstock (now, he was actually at Woodstock...) So this is obviously a lie a lot of vampires tell, and from that we can presume that - as far as vampires are aware - vampires must predate the crucifixion... unless the master is Judas. Which would be cool but seems like something they would have brought up if true. If he isn't, it means vamps are older than Jesus and therefore means Kakistos and the master - even if not directly descended from the Turok Han - can be thousands of years old.

In thousands of years I imagine he managed to circle the globe multiple times. He at least went to America on two separate occasions. Though I'm still not convinced as to why pre- Christian vampires would fear crosses.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Heinrich Joseph Nest was 600 years old, which I think was from a season 1 shooting script. I think that's best understood as a hypothesis of the Watcher's Council, not his true name and age.

The Comics had him sired by an ancient vampire known as Archeus, about a thousand years ago.

As far as age goes, Darla is 400, Lothos was almost a thousand. However, I doubt either of the sources for him are canonical. And Dracula, but that was a crossover. No age is provided for Kasistos or Prince of Lies.

A Sumerian text was consulted regarding his life, so, 3000 BC?

In all fairness, I prefer him to have a mysterious origin.

As far as Holy Symbols, we don't know why they work. But it's worth noting that Christ worked as an exorcist and trained exorcists. The unclean spirits that inhabit vampires are just possessor demons when they don't grab the undead, and were probably taught to abhor Crux.
 

DeadlyDuo

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or who did he think he was?

This guy

TheMaster.jpg
 

ILLYRIAN

Druish Pervonian Wizard
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Who came up with the ages of the vampires mention here? Myheadsgonenumb said about the Judas Iscariot rumours (#2), of why some vampires from pre-Christian times were afraid of the Christian cross or why vampire fears silver as Judas got paid with 30 pieces of silver. Has anyone got any facts of what the metals made up those coins?
That causes me to think why it was called The Order of Aurelias, why wouldn't there be an The Order of Iscariot?
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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The Master being 600 years old? According to Wikipedia, it was a factoid published in the Shooting script of "Welcome to the Hellmouth." Again, I don't think it's likely, Darla was 400 years old, didn't look a day over 19, whereas the Master has clearly changed. Wiki also contains speculation he's a relic from the time of the old ones, which is possible, I guess. It does explain why the prophetcies in Sumerian.
 
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As far as Holy Symbols, we don't know why they work. But it's worth noting that Christ worked as an exorcist and trained exorcists. The unclean spirits that inhabit vampires are just possessor demons when they don't grab the undead, and were probably taught to abhor Crux.

But Jesus didn't use crosses to perform exorcisms! He used to just lay hands on people and tell the demon to leave. A cross is only a symbol of Christ - and therefore God, and goodness - post crucifixion. A vampire who was a peer of Jesus, even if they were afraid of Jesus, would not fear crosses. In fact - the cross didn't become the official symbol of Jesus until ages afterwards - early Christians used to recognise each other by the mark of the fish. It would make more sense for a vampire contemporary of Jesus to be afraid of fish than it does for them to be afraid of crosses.

And whereas it makes sense for a post Jesus vampire from a Christian society to fear the cross - even if only on a psychological level - it makes very little sense that a pre crucifixion vampire - already settled in their human body - would be fine with two strips of wood bound together one day as simply a method of torturous execution (they were probably quite fond of it in fact) and then to suddenly be afraid of it, once Christians settle on it as the big God symbol ages after Jesus is dead.

Also I don't see why a vampire would fear an exorcist. You can't exorcise the vampire out of people - if you could, then the role of the slayer would be both totally pointless and totally immoral. A vampire would just kill the person trying to cast out their demon and go on their merry way.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
I now want to see a vampire smacked with a fish, to see what happens!
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