1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Something weird Doc says to Spike in "Forever"

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by flow, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    968
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    626
    In Forever (S5) Dawn wants to resurrect Joyce and Spike wants to help her and recommends a visit of "Doc" whom he doesn`t know personally, but he has heard that Doc is an expert for resurrection spells. When Spike and Dawn arrive at Doc`s home the following weird conversation takes place:

    DOC
    Hold your horses…
    (sees Spike)
    I know you.

    SPIKE
    Don't think so, mate.

    DOC
    (confused)
    No, you're that guy. That guy always
    hangs around down at the corner mart.
    Big into dominos, aren't you?

    SPIKE
    Can't say that I am.
    Look, we came because-

    DOC
    That's crazy, isn't it? I'd swear you
    were him. I mean, your hair's a
    different color and you're a vampire,
    but other than that…

    Okay. Doc seems to know Spike. Spike denies knowing Doc. If that is true or a lie, is never confirmed later (as far as I know). What I don`t understand is, that Doc seems to talk about William, before he was turned into a vampire. But he also talks about a guy who hangs around at the corner mart and is into dominos.

    I couldn`t find a translation for corner mart, but I guess it is a kind of shop ? Thanks to Google I have found out that Domino is a game that has been known in England in Victorian times. But why would William hang around by a Corner Mart ?

    Has there ever been an explanation for Doc`s remark ?

    It is, by the way, the same demon who throws Spike off the tower and opens the portal in "The Gift". But I don`t see any connection to this scene. Do you ?

    Flow
     
  2. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    5,453
    Likes Received:
    5,352
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    4,215
    I always thought Doc behaving like a fool, so to appear non threatening, but just an annoyance. I didn't think the character he was talking about had any relation to Spike at all, but it would be really interesting if he were referring to William
     
    flow likes this.
  3. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    Location:
    Blighty
    Reputation:
    410
    I think Doc was just supposed to be making himself seem quirky, a bit daft and off the wall so that he didn't appear to be potentially dangerous or threatening. I don't think he was actually supposed to be talking about Spike or William at all. He behaves the same at first when Xander and Spike go there later (which links to this earlier visit in Forever), offering them cocoa and bumbling around his answers about Glory. But once Spike accuses him of lying and hiding something he changes his manner and we find out he worships Glory as he turns on them. So the persona is revealed to have been false. Of course they think they have killed him but are wrong and he later appears to start the ritual on the tower. The way he behaves at first could possibly be a front he uses in the demon community as a whole rather than specific to the gang. It was his reputation that meant Spike suggested him to Dawn and his knowledge of the darker sides to magic that led to them going to him again as a last resort for information in The Weight of the World. Rather than them having any suspicions of his involvement.

    In a rewatch I'm involved in the reviewer of Forever suggested an episode specific reason for Doc's strange behaviour too beyond it being for the later reveal. The scene deliberately mixes that Spike/Dawn notice some traits of Docs but overlook others. Spike takes Dawn to Doc because Spike is a questionable partner to bring in, someone that won't morally steer her, and Dawn is focused on what she wants and is willing to look past the indications that there could be danger in what she is doing, hidden threats etc. Behind the curtain Doc seems frightening and then he emerges and seems friendly but his incorrect placing of Spike is mixed with him also stating that Spike is a vampire. His strange behaviour and weird comments mixing nonsense with truths possibly even puts them off asking him more questions, Dawn even considers leaving. On one hand Doc seems harmless, but then taking a hair from Dawn without asking, the tail, the black eyes all make him seem more questionable, that he could possibly be a bit threatening. He is certainly indicated to be more than he seems. Basically they know very little about him but want what he can offer enough to look past risks and indications that he could be hiding the truth under his apparent foolishness and harmlessness. It all mixes for an unsettling tone and works for the questionable choice in Dawn's actions but her want overriding her concerns.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2017 ---
    Oh yes, I forgot to say, in terms of linking Forever to The Weight of the World and The Gift - Didn't the box that Xander and Spike recovered from Doc after their visit which revealed his fake persona and involvement with Glory contain the ritual scrolls? Giles then talks to Buffy about what they have learned about the ritual. That it looks to open a portal, has to be performed at a set time/place, through bloodletting and Dawn's death (as they thought) would be the only way to stop it. It then makes sense that Doc, who wasn't dead, appears to perform the ritual and cut Dawn in The Gift as he was the one who had those scrolls and was probably always supposed to come and be a part of the ritual.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    flow likes this.
  4. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    5,453
    Likes Received:
    5,352
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    4,215
    This mix of the threatening and quirky reminds me of the toy maker, Kaltenbach in All The Way. Both characters are unsettling, written so the audience doesn't know if they are good or bad and we are thrown off-balance by them. I still don't know it Kaltenbach would have murdered Dawn and Janice if he hadn't been murdered himself.
     
    flow and Stoney like this.
  5. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    968
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    626
    Thanks to both of you !

    Thinking about it again, it makes much more sense, that Doc was just trying to confuse Spike and Dawn, especially as we have never seen Spike or William playing domino at all.

    I thought the reference to the hair and to Spike not being a Vampire, meant, that Doc must have known Spike back when he was human. But as it is obvious that Spikes haircolour can not be natural and Doc probably can sense that Spike is a Vampire, he might just have connected these two things in his attempt to appear quirky but not threatening.

    I would still like to know, what a Corner mart is. Do you have any ideas ?

    And do you think, Doc opened the portal for himself or for Glory ? By the time, he starts the ritual, Buffy has already defeated Glory, if I remember correctly.

    Flow
     
  6. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    Location:
    Blighty
    Reputation:
    410
    I always assumed a corner mart was probably a little like a British corner shop, although possibly a little bigger but not as comprehensive/big as a supermarket. I've done a little google search and a 'mart' is defined by Collins as 'a place such as a market where things are bought and sold.' The wiki page for convenience store also gives the term mini-mart and references the Canadian Quickie Mart as well as the Kwik-E-Mart in the Simpsons. So I'm not sure on the size, but a local shop seems to be the general gist.

    I don't know that Doc would have known what the situation was with Glory. It makes sense to me that he would prioritise performing his role as intended and be hoping that Glory would win the battle going on around him and be able to go through the portal as planned.