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Spike and the soul request

What did you think Spike wanted?

  • Saw it when it aired and thought he wanted a soul

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • Saw it when it aired and thought he wanted the chip removed

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • Saw it later and thought he wanted a soul

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Saw it later and thought he wanted the chip removed

    Votes: 9 40.9%

  • Total voters
    22

nightshade

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Black Thorn
#1
When you first saw the end of season 6, what did you think Spike went to the demon for?

Did you watch it when it first aired, or did you see it later?
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#3
I saw it later and I did not see the soul thing coming. In Crush, Drusilla suggests that Spike could defeat the chip through sheer force of will, so I thought he was proving himself worthy of his freedom from it.

To be fair, I had bigger concerns than Spike when I watched this episodes the first time. :p
 
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#4
IMO, he wanted two things - what the Slayer deserved and what Buffy deserved. What the Slayer deserves/needs is a warrior. (She testifies to this in Get it Done). The chip helped with that (note Spike refers to himself as a "Warrior" in contradistinction to Lloyds' "dark warrior") but, in some ways, was also a hindrance (he comments earlier on its limitations - won't allow him to stop muggers etc). What Buffy needed and deserved was a good man. How he becomes a good man - his soul - is Lloyd's decision. Removing the chip was Buffy's. Ironically, given his determination to take charge of the situation, the process by which he changes is taken out of his hands.

I always think of it in terms of irony. He remains "bad...wicked" but in the sense that urban slang's inverted the meaning of "bad" to mean "good". It's how he distinguishes himself from Angel and it's what allows him to make the following statement in GiD, which marries both the concepts of warrior and good man: "(In vamp visage, Spike takes out a cigarette and puts it in his mouth) I don't know your feelings, big guy, but to me, a tussle like that... (strikes a match on the demon's ear, brings the match up to his cigarette; Spike's now in human face) is good for the soul. (Spike lights his cigarette and takes a puff).

He doesn't have to name the soul as a source of his goodness. It's like me sending one of my lads out for "something nice for dinner". It doesn't matter whether they return with a Chinese meal or a Japanese meal - as long as it's nice.

So...I don't think your choices accommodate my understanding. I watched it when it first aired and can't remember what I thought then. I've no problem justifying my beliefs now but TBH I think Whedon's "twist" was too clever for its own good.
 

nightshade

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#5
What you thought when you first saw it wasn't influenced by what happened afterwards, or by others opinions. It's your immediate response.

This thread isn't actually about Spike, or his reasonings, but about what you were thinking.
 

nightshade

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#6
I saw it when it aired, and did not think that Spike went to get his soul, I thought the demon had made a mistake. I was rather disappointed in him getting one. By that point I was giving up on Buffy and Spike getting the chip removed interested me, I loved the idea of Spike being bad again.
 
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#7
What you thought when you first saw it wasn't influenced by what happened afterwards, or by others opinions. It's your immediate response.

This thread isn't actually about Spike, or his reasonings, but about what you were thinking.
Yep...and that's what I was thinking on rewatch but you don't give me an option for neither/both. :)
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#8
This reactor is going to be watching the end of S6 soon. Remembering first reactions is hard, but here, we get to see it in real time.

I think Spike getting his chip out would have been a complete non-event. Spike gets his chip out, goes to fight Buffy, looses just like he has done so many times before, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah, but he does not even need to loose the chip, because he is perfectly capable of fighting Buffy as he is. He was fighting her, until she kicked him. I think the misdirection is important, though, because we need to see that Spike is evil when he goes to the demon.
 
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Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
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#9
I watched it when it aired - but in Britain ... so it had already aired a few weeks earlier over in the States. Some of my Buffy nut acquaintances had printed the scripts off that there new fangled internet machine witchcraft and brought them into school. I was gutted about the twist at the end - because I feared it would lead to Spike becoming like early seasons Angel. My blondie bear. No!
As a result, when I watched the end of Seeing Red I knew exactly what he was going for. As such, I can see that the writers did mean for him to actively seek his soul, because they dance around what he actually wants without saying it. If he wanted the chip removed he'd just come out and state it - he has before (with Adam and with the doctor near the beginning of season 5). They were deliberately setting up OUR expectations to be thwarted - but not Spike's - who knew exactly what he was after. However the writing is very clunky and could have been done better.
I have no idea what I would have believed if I didn't know the twist going in. But knowing the twist going in - you can see it coming a mile off.
 
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Sineya
#11
I saw it when it aired and thought he wanted his chip out. When he says, "Bitch is gonna see a change" in "Villains", this does not seem like something someone who wanted to improve himself would say. The whole exchange is here:

DEMON: Answer me.
SPIKE: Yeah. I seek you.
DEMON: Something about a woman. The slayer.
SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.

Close on the green glowing eyes as the demon laughs evilly.

SPIKE: What?
DEMON: Look what she's reduced you to.
SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-
DEMON: You were a legendary dark warrior, and you let yourself be castrated. (Spike looking angry) And you have the audacity to crawl in here and demand restoration?
SPIKE: I'm still a warrior.
DEMON: You're a pathetic excuse for a demon.
SPIKE: (angry) Yeah? I'll show you pathetic. Give me your best shot.
DEMON: You'd never endure the trials required to grant your request.
SPIKE: Do your worst. But when I win ... I want what I came here for.

The demon watches him, breathes loudly but says nothing.

SPIKE: Bitch is gonna see a change.


I thought the demon double-crossed him by restoring his soul. At the end of the trials in "Grave", he says:

SPIKE: "So, give me what I want. Make me what I was... so Buffy can get what she deserves."

At this point we don't know whether he thinks Buffy deserves a good man or a monster whose ability to go on a killing spree. We do know the demon does not make him what he was - he has never been a vampire with a soul.
 

Dora

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#12
Saw it when it aired, how did Spike get to Africa before the Ambulance got to Buffy ?
Spike never mentions his soul so I thought he went to get his Chip removed , as said I believe the demon played a trick on Spike
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
I don't think we're watching Spike in real time those last few episodes : )

Mrs Gordo

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#13
Yeah I bought into Joss' fake out. I watched it "later" but before s7. I thought in s7 maybe we'd get him back to give Buffy some hell. And then Buffy would be forced to kill him and given their previous 'relationship' it would be difficult for her. I even remember I told my friend "I can't wait to see Buffy stake him after what he did to her."

Boy oh boy was I off the mark!

I didn't really get on forums back then so I didn't have people around to offer me alternative possibilities.
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
#14
I saw it later, and as far as I recall I thought he was going to get his chip out / or somehow become season 2 Spike again. I don't think it crossed my mind that it could've been anything else. Like you could just go get a soul. I also interpreted his depature as antagonistic and that probably played into my reading. I prefer the idea that the demon double crossed him actually, makes it a better story for me.
 
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#15
Now I do believe he was there to get his soul but the first time I must admit that I believed he was there to remove the chip. So yeah Joss fooled me, kudos to him.
 

thetopher

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#16
I saw it when it aired and thought 'chip' all the way through. The soul twist pretty much blindsided me. Looking back its a case of 'clever idea, shame about the execution'. Like a lot of S7 really.
 
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#17
I watched it live but don't remember what I thought. Definitely didn't think he went there to get the chip out since that makes no sense.

Spike wanted Buffy more than he wanted to kill randoms. Just like Anya wanted Xander more than she wanted to curse people. He was less likely to fall back on his evil past since he was actively trying to get Buffy while Anya had the opportunity to get with Xander but was too hurt to try to fix things.

In Smashed when he thought the chip stopped working he had to talk himself into attacking someone and even then only did it because he was upset Buffy rejected him & said "you're not a man, you're a thing, an evil soulless thing." It was like Faith, the eye rolling destructive you-think-I'm-bad-I'll-show-you-bad behavior.

Once he got a real taste of Buffy, he couldn't be swayed. Spike didn't have his own personal moral code but he would've been more than willing to fake it and toe the line if it meant getting to be with Buffy. It's like in the SMG movie Possession, a violent man is in prison, falls for his lawyer, she marries his sweet brother, he gets released, she feels uncomfortable having him around, the brothers get into a car accident, and he wakes up and gaslights her into believing he's her husband trapped in the body of the inmate brother. He was going to spend the rest of his life in the ruse in order to be with her.

Spike didn't want to kill Buffy. And the chip hadn't worked on her since her resurrection.

You don't need to travel to a wish granting cave in Africa to remove a government implanted neural inhibitor.
 

Dora

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#18
I watched it live but don't remember what I thought. Definitely didn't think he went there to get the chip out since that makes no sense.

Spike wanted Buffy more than he wanted to kill randoms. Just like Anya wanted Xander more than she wanted to curse people. He was less likely to fall back on his evil past since he was actively trying to get Buffy while Anya had the opportunity to get with Xander but was too hurt to try to fix things.

In Smashed when he thought the chip stopped working he had to talk himself into attacking someone and even then only did it because he was upset Buffy rejected him & said "you're not a man, you're a thing, an evil soulless thing." It was like Faith, the eye rolling destructive you-think-I'm-bad-I'll-show-you-bad behavior.

Once he got a real taste of Buffy, he couldn't be swayed. Spike didn't have his own personal moral code but he would've been more than willing to fake it and toe the line if it meant getting to be with Buffy. It's like in the SMG movie Possession, a violent man is in prison, falls for his lawyer, she marries his sweet brother, he gets released, she feels uncomfortable having him around, the brothers get into a car accident, and he wakes up and gaslights her into believing he's her husband trapped in the body of the inmate brother. He was going to spend the rest of his life in the ruse in order to be with her.

Spike didn't want to kill Buffy. And the chip hadn't worked on her since her resurrection.

You don't need to travel to a wish granting cave in Africa to remove a government implanted neural inhibitor.
No you dont need to travel to a wish granting cave in Africa to get your soul returned to you, you can ask Willow. Spike had plenty of time before Seeing Red to get his soul , if he really thought that was what Buffy wanted
Spikes last line is make me the man I was .....he was never a soul vampire .... all points to the demon playing a trick on Spike
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
Willow can curse him to be like Angel. He doesn't want to be cursed. Plus ... she isn't supposed to be doing magic right now.

Spanky

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#19
all points to the demon playing a trick on Spike
Not really. Not all signs point to that. Many signs point to him going there to get a soul. Many signs also point to him going there to get the chip removed. Those are easier signs to read, but if you really look at it, it's quite obvious he went to get a soul.
 
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#20
I'm not sure the signs really point to him going for a soul - the writing is really clunky, and could have been done much more cleverly. But when you watch closely the signs all do point to the fact that he isn't going for the chip removed. Spike has talked incessantly about getting that chip removed ever since he got it - explicitly. All that coy 'bitch is gonna see a change' 'give the slayer what she deserves' 'make me what I was' - and not a straightforward (as has been stated previously many times) 'get this soddin chip out of my skull' - is a great honking neon sign that he isn't trying to get his chip removed. If he was - he would say it.

Besides, the very last dialogue is
Spike: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Demon: Very well. We will return your soul.

Spike asks if the demon will give him what he asked for and the demon says yes. The demon then gives him his soul. Ergo that is what Spike asked for.
Plus - he doesn't need the chip removed to kill Buffy. He can already hurt her. Going to Africa to give the slayer what she deserves and then only getting his chip removed, which changes nothing re: him and Buffy, makes absolutely zero sense.
 
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