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Spike in the basement

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
Joined
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Sineya
We know he spent a lot of time down there. What do you think he was doing in between First trips?
 

Dora

Scooby
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I never understood (A) how he got there (B) why was he never found either by construction or maintenance staff (C) what did he feed on ( D) why Buffy never told the other scoobies
The whole Spike in the cellar was again I feel just looking to try to fit Spike in , as with everything Spike was mixed up with from S5, what was the First brainwashing him for ? never understood the whole it is not time yet thing , was Spike leaving the cellar to kill ? if so why? why was we not shown ? the first had him kill the ten people he buried in the cellar plus at least Holden what for ? the first surely could have attracted as many vampires as it wanted as did the mayor , it already had a army of super vamps plus the bringers
While Angel brooded for years about what he had done as a Vampire , took Spike only a few episodes of acting nutty , hardly affected him when he found he had been killing again under the influence of the first
Much better to have introduced Spike saving Buffy life , say from her first fight with the Turkey Ham by killing it , hence that way helping make Spike a good guy from introduction
 

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
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Sineya
Maybe a guilty consciousness is cured by rats blood. Spike was less squeamish about interacting with rodents so ate way more than Angel did? Cured! Chasing rats would have taken up a fair amount of time. Or maybe it was pigs blood that is the cure to the curse of memories past... did that pig get away from Andrew before or after Spike left the basement? Or Maybe navy blue skivvies are the cure to broodom?
 

sharlto

irons her jeans
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
30
I always thought Spike was kind-of-sort-of implied to be having some kind of psychotic episode during those scenes? Obviously not kept 100% accurate to the DSM, but that's probably what kept him a little anti-social.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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My guess is, ME had said everything they wanted to say about ensouled vampires. In lessons, they had to establish a new setting, they had to foreshadow the half formed season Arc, they had to introduce the new high school characters, they had to establish what was going on with Willow and Giles. They also had write the final scene, which was awesome, but was probably a pain to create. Spike in a feral stage being used by First Evil was probably the least involved story they could come up with, and meet their contractual obligations to the actor.
 

white avenger

white avenger
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(A) how he got there
Since it was established later in the Season that the First Evil had sinister pland that included Spike, I always just assumed that agents of the First somehow transported Spike from Africa back to Sunnydale and into the basement.

(B) why was he never found either by construction or maintenance staff
Assuming that Spike actually was put there by agents of the First, it might be that he wasn't there until after the construction of the school was complete, and the basement was so extensive that none of the staff, other than Buffy, ever bothered to go down there.

(C) what did he feed on
We saw him feeding on, or at least stalking, a rat at one point, though it seems unlikely that there would have been a large enough rat population there that quickly to sustain him for very long. However, we have no real idea how long that Spike had been in the school basement before Buffy found him, so he might not have been there long enough for it to have become a major issue at that point.

( D) why Buffy never told the other scoobies
Maybe she was remembering the Scoobies' attitudes toward Angel when he returned in Season 3, and was just reluctant to start all that trouble once again. Spike was pretty well contained there in the school basement. He wasn't apt to hurt anyone. Maybe Buffy just figured that he was her problem to deal with, and none of anyone else's business.

While Angel brooded for years about what he had done as a Vampire , took Spike only a few episodes of acting nutty , hardly affected him when he found he had been killing again under the influence of the first
It's quite possible that a large portion of Angel's guilt over Angelus' sins and crimes was actually part of the curse that ensouled him in the first place, combined with the initial reaction of the person most important to him at the time, Darla, who saw the soul as something that made him less that he had been. On the other hand, from the moment that she discovered what he had done, Buffy was nothing but supportive of Spike, even to the point of taking his side against her closest friends.

Ultimately, it could be argued that Buffy was instrumental in both vampires reaching some sort of peace with their past and getting on with the business at hand, namely, fighting the forces of evil. Spike just met her within a few weeks of attaining his soul, whereas Angel had his for over a century before ever meeting her.
 
Joined
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Black Thorn
While Angel brooded for years about what he had done as a Vampire , took Spike only a few episodes of acting nutty , hardly affected him when he found he had been killing again under the influence of the first
Oh I have an answer to this one!
How I see it, Spike had brooded for a few months maximum before Buffy found him, and he had basically been thrown directly back into the fight. He had to get his crap together, the first was influencing everything he does through guilt and Buffy was encouraging him to be as violent as pre-soul Spike was, it is something you would put in the 'deal with later' part of your brain. Buffy was also the centre of Spike's morality, so what Buffy says goes for the most part. Spike is also 'an in the moment' type person rather than someone who puts time into reflection like Angel. This is why I don't really consider Spike to be on the road to redemption until he was on Angel, he was doing what Buffy wanted rather than what was good, and Spike was different in season 7 - he is of the of the biggest complaints about the season because he's boring.

Angel was slightly different. Angel couldn't deal with the guilt and it seems to be amplified by being alone (hence Spike being better around Buffy, also Angel going back to Darla). He also killed quite a few people - regardless whether they were murderers and rapists, that is going to weigh on someone, especially since he can't use 'well I didn't have a soul then' as a response, there is no logical way to get rid of the guilt from that. Angel was also trying his best to be what Darla wanted and she is evil, with Spike it was Buffy and she is good, now if Drusilla was still his main romance, it would have probably gone the same way as Angel. There was no support for Angel for a long long time, whereas Spike had it from the moment Buffy had known about his soul.

This is something that goes down to the core of their pre-soul characters, Spike did things for fun, Angelus did things for the evil of doing them, again making Angel probably feel a hell of a lot more guilt in that regard then Spike. Comparing their journeys is kind of difficult, the are the same but they are also the opposite, they chase after their romantic interest and try to be who they wanted them to be, only Angel had no one after that, but Spike had Angel, Fred, Gunn, Wesley and Lorne who accepted him.

Spike does feel the guilt, a lot. But after being found, he had an amazing support system in a way, the focus kept on doing good and with too much to do to worry about what he had done, even on Angel he was constantly kept going, especially with Fred. In his alone time, like in the basement, I could easily imagine he feels quite deeply about the horrific things he has done as he is a particularly sensitive character, but he can't exactly sit there crying while Buffy's in the fight of her life with them all being picked off.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
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Sineya
The really brilliant writing is in "Same Time, Same Place" where Spike speaks to both Buffy and Willow using the same words in the same conversation but since Buffy and Willow cannot see each other (but Spike can see both of them), the conversation seems a bit disjointed until it is revealed that he has been talking to both of them. This is some of the best writing in Season 7.

And glad tidings - buffyworld is back under this URL:


for the "Same Time, Same Place" crowd and it seems to be an automatic redirect if you try to go to buffyworld.com.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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Yeah, I agree with that. Angel shut himself off from the world for a hundred years. Spike didn't.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

Potential
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Hmmm in order to know the answer to any of this we need to know answers that aren't given. For example - is Spike's insanity a side effect of the return of his soul, or is it purely because the first is messing with him? And how long has he been there?
My thinking is: Angel didn't go insane with the return of his soul. There was very little raving - a bit, but not much. Second and third time around there was no raving at all. And his soul was always forced on him against his will. Spike went there for his soul, he knew what he was getting - and had seen Angel with a soul and how it affected him - so was probably slightly more prepared for the after effects. Which means while he might have been a bit mopey, following the return of his soul, he wouldn't have been incoherent or a danger to himself.
Therefore he would have been capable of getting himself back to Sunnydale without wandering out into the daylight by accident or getting on the wrong ship and ending up in China.
So it then becomes a matter of timing. We have to assume that the Spike we see during the final episodes of S6 are not in real time. We have the <ahem> bathroom event in Seeing Red and then, if we're watching in real time, he is in Africa by the end of the next day. Considering he definitely didn't fly there (not only has Angel already warned us of the risks of vampire's and aeroplanes - but Spike says he has never been in an aeroplane before in 'A hole in the world') then he didn't really get there the next day. And he had to 'search out a legend' - travel into the deepest part of the continent, only at night, that's more time. Then he has the trials. Then he has the return journey. The chances are he has only been back in Sunnydale a week at most by the time Buffy finds him.
So ... why does he got to the basement? Meh - he was probably lured there. The First took on the guise of Buffy, he followed her - and then he was trapped down there by the hellmouth/the seal being tortured by the ghosts of the first. Added to the new found guilt of his soul, it probably took less goading than it normally would to drive him completely sack of hammers.
He isn't found by the construction team because a) the basement is already finished, most of the school is by the time he gets there, so it is unlikely for there to be any contractors actually in the basement and b) in the event of a contractor arriving in the basement then the the first - or possibly the seal - is able to bend the shape of the basement - as is commented on later in the season - so Spike wouldn't be found.
He is knowingly eating rats when he can - Angel fed on nothing but rats for twenty years, he was rubbish at catching them - he averaged about one a week, for twenty years - he was fine. Spike might have been hungry, but he would have survived. And as he hadn't been there very long when Buffy found him - it wasn't an issue for very long. Plus he must already have been going out and killing people before he moved in with Xander (he moves in in 'Him' and is found out to be killing people the very next episode) so that would have been keeping him full even if he didn't know why he was.
As for what the First's eventual plan was ... probably he was wanted to kill Buffy. Not only is he one of the few vampires powerful enough to actually do it - but he was also a trusted ally, he becomes the only one she really trusts - he is in the perfect position to turn on her and kill her. Caleb doesn't come into town until after the trigger is deactivated the episode before. Almost as if he is called in when plan A fails (after all that scythe would have been a heck of a lot better hidden from her if he hadn't turned up and started looking for it. I think that's the Streisand Effect - where attempts to conceal something only draw attention to it). As to why it isn't time for Spike yet - it's not time to kill her yet because she is collecting all the potentials - the people the first is currently killing - and putting them in one place. If Buffy is killed, the potentials remain scattered and the First's job is harder.
 

DeadlyDuo

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If Buffy is killed, the potentials remain scattered and the First's job is harder.
Yet as Chosen shows, there were still potentials out in the world who made no effort to get to Buffy's house or even looked like they were in danger. A girl was playing baseball.

Caleb digging up the scythe makes absolutely no sense. Team Evil can't use it so why helpfully dig it out when it's the only thing that enabled Buffy to win. Either Caleb shouldn't have mentioned it at all or left it in rock so Buffy's team had to dig it out, thus luring them all to one place and leaving them vulnerable.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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Or poison the scythe with magic. Make it a trap instead of a gift.

But getting season 7 to make sense is an ambitious project.
 

sharlto

irons her jeans
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Aug 9, 2019
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'Where Spike Is' really depends on how canon you like to keep your comics. He's firmly back in California by 'Into the Light', at least, which allegedly takes place just before S7 starts. Nothing in that comic particularly implied that The First was in any way involved - it's really just seems like a question of how and when They (?) showed up.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
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I think I have an idea.

J.W.: "But won't it be super difficult for Spike to travel from California to Africa without touching sunlight?"

M.N.: "Actually no, it will be super easy, barely an inconvenience."

J.W.: "So how are you going to explain it?"

M.N.: "I won't."

J.W.: "Fair enough. Hey, is Bush still president, because I am not fond of that man."

Fin.
 

Fuffy Baith

2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
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Sineya
I never understood (A) how he got there (B) why was he never found either by construction or maintenance staff (C) what did he feed on ( D) why Buffy never told the other scoobies
You know I never really thought about that. I guess he got the soul and came back to Sunnydale to try to win over Buffy. Maybe the First or the Bringers got to him first. The Hellmouth is under the school. So maybe that is what drove him down to the basement. But why was he staying there? It's a brand new school, I don't imagine that many rats living down there. Buffy then found him in the church so he could leave the basement. Idk why he wasn't just in his crypt then. Hmm.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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Gods forbid I imply the writers put any thought into season 7 beyond how to fit a few key points in, but maybe Spike went to destroy the Hellmouth himself (and perhaps expected to die) only for the First to torment him all the way (though the first speech seems to imply to me that Spike had just gotten there, though in truth the speech was for the audience rather than Spike), visions of his mother combined with the Hellmouth energies finally broke him down before he could do anything effective. And that's when it began to put the trigger into him.

'Course that begs the question why others couldn't have similar triggers put into them, perhaps even Buffy or Andrew.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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You know I never really thought about that. I guess he got the soul and came back to Sunnydale to try to win over Buffy. Maybe the First or the Bringers got to him first. The Hellmouth is under the school. So maybe that is what drove him down to the basement. But why was he staying there? It's a brand new school, I don't imagine that many rats living down there. Buffy then found him in the church so he could leave the basement. Idk why he wasn't just in his crypt then. Hmm.
He says in the comics he avoided his old crypt out of guilty memories and he'd let Clem have it at the end of season six. Also he was unstable due to being newly ensouled which made him an easy target for the First's gaslighting.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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Gods forbid I imply the writers put any thought into season 7 beyond how to fit a few key points in, but maybe Spike went to destroy the Hellmouth himself (and perhaps expected to die) only for the First to torment him all the way (though the first speech seems to imply to me that Spike had just gotten there, though in truth the speech was for the audience rather than Spike), visions of his mother combined with the Hellmouth energies finally broke him down before he could do anything effective. And that's when it began to put the trigger into him.

'Course that begs the question why others couldn't have similar triggers put into them, perhaps even Buffy or Andrew.
Andrew doesn't have an inner demon and is easy to manipulate without it. Buffy has already gone through her mentally fragile phase and her demon is deeper down. Spike has a demon and is very emotionally fragile when the trigger is being implanted in him.

The First is conditioning him like an abuser would an emotionally vulnerable person.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Wow, I bet you know more about how the First works than the writers do!
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