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Spike never truly "loved" Buffy

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Tome

    Tome Berktwad

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    Black Thorn
    Absolutely sorry. I did not notice your response until now.

    Anyhow, Angel was obsessed with Buffy from the moment he first saw her in LA. He only began to move away from her after he came back from Hell. Even after that, you could tell Buffy remained on his mind. I mean, even in his torrid dream, where he has sex with Cordelia, he thinks of Buffy when he reaches perfect happiness(tm).

    Fair enough, vampires stalk. I am not sure where this leaves us, though.

    I think Dalton was deserving for more than that, but we did not know the character very well. As for Angelus, well... ugh! If we really got into this debate, it would never end considering even emotions like rage, hatred, etc. could be regarded as human, and, consequently, even Angelus could be considered human-like.

    He did not have “that much humanity”, but he had some. He needed a soul because the sad incident in Buffy's bathroom proved to him that he could never be the *man* he wanted to be around Buffy. He murdered, raped, and tortured for 120 years because he was a vampire. That's apparently what monsters do. It does not mean he could not care for someone.

    Sadly, this argument will go in circles because the writers, including Joss, have changed the rules many times for Spike in the Buffyverse. Even if I take Spike's defense with some sound arguments, there will always be some holes that you can point out considering there WAS holes in Spike's character arc. I will admit that gladly. ;)

    P.S.: You are Groot?
     
  2. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    People keep mentionning the curse and how Angel could have found a cure for it as if Angel left because they couldn't have sex... It's been canon since early season 2 that Angel wanted more for Buffy and felt extremely insecure about his vampireness. It's not about not being able to have sex, it's about not being able to give her the normal relationship he thinks she deserves. Sex is definitely a part of that but I thought Choices and The Prom made it clear it was more than that.
     
  3. Tome

    Tome Berktwad

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think he only left because they could not have sex, but it definitely played a part in it. After all, Buffy spoke of children and you could tell it got him thinking. I agree, however, that Angel hoped that Buffy could get a better relationship, one with a man that could take her out under the sun. ;)

    I still get pissed, though, at how Buffy's mother went over to lecture Angel behind her daughter's back. That was one of the reasons I disliked Joyce as a mother until S5.
     
  4. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    That was also wildly OOC for Joyce. Since when did she even take any kind of interest in Buffy's life? lol I was not a fan of Joyce in the early seasons
     
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  5. Tome

    Tome Berktwad

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    Black Thorn
    Can you imagine if Buffy had ever found out her mother had been partly responsible for Angel breaking up with her? Yikes!
     
    GraceK: She would be furious!!
    sparethetragic: Get ready for an ass kicking, LOL.
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  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Funny aneurysm?

    I don't think anything Joyce said made a difference. Angel already got there long before Joyce meddled. Angel had been thinking it since Buffy started talking college in early S3. I actually don't mind her going to him because for once she acts like a mother. What I hate is her going behind Buffy's back. At least have some respect for your daughter by going to her first and if Buffy decides to blow you off, then go to her boyfriend. But first you talk to your daughter.
     
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  7. Zenseem

    Zenseem Evil, skanky and kinda gay

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    Black Thorn
    But Buffy would definetely overreact and Joyce was probably aware of that.
     
  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Doesn't matter. She's the mother and the adult. She should be able to handle that. It's actually her job as the mother to care about her child even if she knows what she says/does gets her child angry at her. Welcome to parenthood.
     
  9. Zenseem

    Zenseem Evil, skanky and kinda gay

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    Black Thorn
    I get your point. I don't agree with some of Joyce's attitudes and she's definetely not the mother of the year. Recklessness must run in the Summers' blood.
     
  10. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    But that's the real difference Angel firstly followed Buffy to make sure as much as possible she was safe helping the Scoobies with their problems, eventually Buffy and Angel fall in love, where Spike stalked Buffy because he lusted after her , so much so her stole her underwear and made a sex doll of her , Angel left Buffy unselfishly to give Buffy a chance to have ordinary life perhaps a family neither ever stopped loving each other, Spike was totally selfish he wanted Buffy to go into the dark with him there was no thought of what she wanted or needed, he went for his soul for one thing himself, because he knew would have no chance of getting jollies off and back into Buffy knickers with out it. there was never any love with Spike if there was he would have gone and got his soul much earlier because that is what Buffy wanted
     
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  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    Here's a perfect video to demonstrate that Spike, even the soulless monster he was, could have loved Buffy.

    Looking at the video and thinking of the different episodes- before season 7- it's more proof Spike was in love.
     
  12. Alara

    Alara Townie

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    Well that's not saying much since the creator kinda agrees with what I am saying. I'm not saying Spuffy is better than Bangel or that Spike is her one true love (in her mind) but I am saying Spuffy is a more realistic relationship than Bangel.

    Buffy's deepest desire is to be a normal girl so of course she will always say that Angel (who is as boring as all get out) is her one true love over Spike but deep down I think its a front to keep up that facade. Spike brings out the side of her that she hates and keeps her from that fantasy of being normal but towards the end of the series we start to see that shift a bit and I'm sure as it goes on in the comics that shift come out even more as time goes on.
     
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  13. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Buffy went to Spike when she was mentally ill, not before, Buffy went to Spike because the Scoobies had basically deserted her , Giles buggering off, Xander and Anya was more interested in their wedding , Willow addicted to her Magic. The scoobies selflessly brought Buffy back and abandon, her lets face it she even had to dig herself out of her grave.Buffy in full metal health would have never gone to Spike season seven she did put up with him but that was because of the History . Buffy relied on him as she did in Five but he was following her around all the time anyway why not make use of him ?
    Would they have got together if the trip had not stopped working on Buffy I doubt it,being told she had come back wrong and was a demon pushed her into Spikes arms as he said, I am the only one here for you . Spike was Buffy's self harming, Spike words, you like what I do to you, Buffy words, the only time I feel anything is when....
    Buffy was happy in heaven,warm, safe, finished, Sunnydale was hell fighting every night,. bills, responsibility, living was Hell Spike was dead with him she could forget her problems be happy be in heaven for a short while, that's why she apologised Im sorry I am using you and it is killing me,Death. Dawn was life but Dawn was a brat in six making Buffy life even more difficult, Buffy knew she had to go to life = Dawn away from Death= Spike. Buffy tried when Spike came onto her she no and don't but was easily persuaded even though she Knew it was wrong with Spike back to death, remember the garlic around her bed in Wrecked , but again she was forced to Spike when Willow took Dawn
    On Spikes side there was no love, he wanted something he took it and he was able because of Buffy metal state, later when his infatuation got the better of him he tried again in Buffy bathroom, only that time she was mentally strong enough not to give in
    But you can't really blame Spike because he was evil and selfish, love means like Angel he thought what would be best for Buffy ,Spike thought what would be best for Spike ( come into the dark with me )
    The real cop out was the writing in season seven making the whole thing Buffy fault despite her Mental illness ,if Spike felt remorse for all he had done as a Vampire then he would have shown remorse for what he had done to the women he professed to love and he did not, no real love,.....Spikes words ... I love what you are = the Slayer...not who you are = Buffy
     
  14. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Realistic how? First love versus domestic abuse...that's more like a 50/50 with better chances for first love IMO. And abuse NEVER leads to happiness. The only realism in Spuffy was that domestic abuse is an actual real life problem. The fact remains though that Spike was a sociopathic mass murderer and Buffy the police officer who chose not to arrest the killer, instead slept with him and repeatedly let him go, giving him the chance at more victims. And that is absolutely UNREALISTIC. I wouldn't be surprised that it actually has happened but it's definitely not something that happens every day.

    It doesn't matter that you think Angel is boring (lmao to that one btw) and that somehow she chooses him to pretend to be something she isn't .Why are you denying Buffy her agency? Isn't it bad enough when Spike constantly does it? Or are you just following in your fave boy's footsteps? I hate this line of thinking. Buffy feels what she feels and she has a RIGHT to those feelings. Just because YOU don't agree with them doesn't make her delusional, wrong or as you say just pretending to keep up a facade. Buffy is her own person (much as Spike and you want to deny it) who can be whoever she wants to be, feel whatever she wants to feel and express it or not. If she says in S7, years after her and Angel are over, that she loved him more than anything in this life than that's her feelings. Same as when Angel comes back at the end of the same Season. Angel isn't even making a move on her that might tempt her to pretend to feel something she doesn't (as you insinuate she always does). SHE kisses him.

    And since you act like Spuffy was touching on something that Buffy actually is, Bangelus was there years before Spuffy was a cramp in Whedon's pants. The Angelus storyline flirted with that 'darkness' already except back then the show (and Buffy) was too young to actually take it further. As to the comics, who cares? Too many retcons, too many character assassinations, too many 'can only do this in comics' storylines and Buffy's story still only revolving around which vampire she bangs this Season. Well that and Whedon declared them non-canon. What do I care what happens there? And a comic drawn character lacks complete depth.
     
  15. Alara

    Alara Townie

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    I also never said she didn't love Angel...just loved him in a superficial way. As teenagers and young adults often do.
    Which is precisely why imo they match each other. I love Buffy but she is as much of a narcissist as Spike. She has the God complex and thinks she can do no wrong. Even though Spike is the opposite, he also thinks very highly of himself. He is after all the only vampire that has killed 2 slayers and he never lets anyone forget it.

    Buffy wasn't mentally ill...maybe a bit depressed and dissociative but definitely well enough to decipher from right and wrong and therefore I don't think her choices when it came to Spike were totally excusable. She knew she was using him...its part of being a narcissist and thats why when she ended it she apologized for her actions.

    Should he have attempted to rape her? No. But treating him like a thing instead of a person was only going to set him off even more.

    He's proved since s5 that he is capable of doing good and therefore should have been treated better in s6 imo. I'm not forgetting that Spike is a vampire and has killed many people but so has Angel or Angelius.
     
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  16. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Wow. Just..wow. I happen to be a Spuffy shipper, but I don't disregard what the show and Buffy herself says. A superficial, teenage love??? Really? She has literally put the world at risk, put her LIFE at her risk, to save Angel. Years after they broke up, she still considers him the love of her life and would still give up everything for him. He has always been a top priority, actually to her detriment...and you dismiss it as superficial?? I am sorry but that is pure fanon. This is what I don't understand...why do some fans feel the need to tear down Angel to prop up Spike, and vice versa? Angel was the love of her life, get over it. That takes nothing away from Spuffy. I firmly believe that she loves Spike and that he is in her heart, and important to her. I just don't find the need to make things up to push the Spuffy agenda. And I am not even going to attempt to respond to the massive victim blaming you are saying about season 6. Honestly...I have no words
     
  17. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    This is not about if I'm agree or not with that you say but I find the word "Realistic" really inapropriate. Both relations aren't realistic in my opinion. Of course we have metaphor to enable us to relate to these stories but It certainly not realistic.. Briley was more real than the others relations
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Dismissing love on the specter of age is weird to me. Are you saying 'high school sweethearts' who stay together for the rest of their lives get by on superficial love? Because it might surprise you but it does happen in real life. People can fall in love young and stay with that person until one of them dies. Shocking, I know.

    And if you dismiss the love of young adults, then Spuffy 'love is' null and void in the series. Buffy was a young adult during her dealings with Spike in S6/7, so according to you, whatever she feels is just superficial anyway. You can't have it both ways. Either Buffy is old enough to know her feelings or she isn't. In which case that needs to be applied to all her relationships and not on a case by case basis.

    Clearly you don't love Buffy. Otherwise you would allow her the right to her feelings instead of dismissing what she feels as a 'facade'.

    Since the comics are canon for you, Buffy herself described her mental state in S6 as 'clinically depressed'. Which means mentally she wasn't well, at all.

    We and Buffy are well aware that she was using him and being borderline abusive while doing so. However Spike was also fully aware of both her mental state and about what she wanted from him, because she was upfront about that every time. If Spike still chooses to engage in a 'relationship' with her despite knowing all that, then my sympathy cup doesn't run very deep.

    And it's really funny to me how you paint Buffy as the ONLY bad guy in a MUTUALLY abusive relationship.

    So basically it's her fault? If only she had treated him with kid's gloves she wouldn't have gotten herself almost raped?
     
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  19. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Answer to Alara

    Clinical Depression....... does Buffy match 5 of these things
    Psychological symptoms

    Continuous low mood or sadness
    Feeling hopeless
    having low self esteem
    feeling tearful
    feeling guilt ridden
    feeling intolerant of others
    having no motivation or interest in things
    not getting enjoyment out of life
    having thoughts of harming yourself or suicidal

    Does Buffy do any of these ?

    Social symptoms

    Not doing well at work
    Avoiding contact with friends and taking part in fewer social activities
    Neglecting hobbies and interests
    Having difficulties in your home and family life

    I think Buffy ticks most boxes in both above if not all don't you?

    Clinical depression is a serious mental illness

    Spikes knew there was a good chance Buffy would come back wrong , he took advantage of Buffy mental state

    The AR was all Spike, Buffy had done the decent thing and broke it off with Spike
    He proved since five he was capable of what ? Stalking , stealing her underwear , sex doll, what else could he do but hang around Buffy after he had been chipped, he could not feed and killed his own kind who else will protect him, we saw in season six just what a caring sensitive vampire he could be , as soon as he thought his chip had stopped working he went out and tried to kill

    To use James Marsters own words Spike was evil and you don't want evil in your life
     
  20. Spikeyspike

    Spikeyspike Townie

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    As a soulless vampire he did love her, in his twisted vampire way. He loved more than most vampires. When he gained his soul, he loved her in the right way, as a human would. And it's not like he planned on raping her and then tried to. He got caught up in the moment, their sex was violent in the first place, then when Buffy kicked him off he realised what has happened and ran away and made a huge change. He didn't mean to try to rape her. And it was soulless vamp Spike who did that, not soul Spike.
     
    ChaseRules: You have a good point there
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