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Spike or Angel.

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thetopher

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Sineya
if you found it unpleasant enough to adress then you should’ve reported it rather than policed another member yourself.
I wasn't aware staff members could police the specific comments section of any post, only the posts themselves. In any case I apologise for my response but the said comment seemed mean spirited and uncalled for. I'll leave it at that.
 

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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Angel. Always Angel.
(I'm mainly talking about BTVS and ATS Angel as I've not read the comics)

I find him such a compelling and complexing character. Yes he broody. A lot. But there is more to him than that.

Angelus makes it more complicated HOWEVER he has never been a reason for me to love Angel. If he had never appeared again after being in the 2nd series, I would not miss him. He served his purpose for that season's arc.

I love Angel for his deep and enduring love for Buffy but I discovered upon watching ATS, I grew to love him even more without her being there with him.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a BAngel fan through and through and in my heart they are endgame but I come to realisation that I want this for them but I don't need it for them. (although I absolutely need for Buffy to NOT end up forever with Spike!)

Angel grew as a character on his own show. Buffy did inspire him but his journey became about what his life meant for him. His drive to help even coming to the point where it's not the total focus of his ultimate dream but more so for the greater good.

Angel makes mistakes and does at times give into the darkness in himself but he has proven that he is strong character that can find himself. A few times with others helping him along the way but also doing so just with himself having to deal with his emotions in the situation.

Angel's love for Buffy was inspiration in giving meaning and purpose but it won't be all that his life is about. He will love her to the end of his days but he can live a life without her and it can be just as rewarding, just as fulfilling.

His love for his son and for Connor's peace of mind makes him do pretty much the same thing like he did with Buffy and give him up and carry the loss and heartbreak and knowledge of their history and how it virtually destroyed Connor. And yet he does so believing it's the right thing even if he loses out in the end.

Angel's burdens weigh heavily on him but he still continues the battle.
The only time he wanted to give up completely was because he was so scared about hurting the one person (at that time) that meant more to him than even himself.

I've not like some of the decisions that Angel has made but I have understood his reasons even when I'd completely disagree with how he handled the situation.

Angel needs to be with others just to feel like he's not alone in the world where no one cares for him but he strong enough that he can live his life on his own. After getting his soul back and giving up on being with his vampire family or anyone, he was still strong enough to live even if it was with no regards towards himself. Living on the streets and scourging for blood by killing rats, still tortured by the memories of all his deeds and destruction as a soulless vampire and yet never having got to the point were he gives up and just let the sunlight take him. He's of stronger mind then, even more than he comprehend.

I feel like he's on his own unique path where he doesn't have the luxury of seeing anyone do it before him to guide him in his decision making.


Which brings me to Spike.
I'm not (usually) a fan of wisecracking, arrogant and over confident bad boy characters like Spike, Damon, Pacey, etc, etc.
And for me he served his purpose in series two with Drusilla.

What I find about his story in BTVS is basically it's virtually Angel's story. It may have come about in different circumstances but it's still about a vampire falling in love with the slayer and how she loves him because he has a soul.

And my feeling was the the BAngel love story never overrides the other characters or their stories. Especially in the first series when I've read complaints about how the relationship of Angel and Buffy was played out. And yet particularly the last two series became a show literally about spuffy (IMO) to the point that it was it's main focus.

I find that they made Spike a character that couldn't cope on his own in the long term. I mean he got with Harmony and it never came across to me that he really like or respect her. But he rather be with her than be by himself. He's just a little too clingy and obsessive. His main purpose for his life is just about living for the person he is in love with. No thought or ambitious for himself in his own life but what his life means for and with his love one. If he can't have that love then there is nothing left for him so what can he do to get that love back. It comes over to me as unhealthy way to love.

However I'm not saying that Spike should have been killed off when he was suppose to. I'm now at a place where I'm indifferent to him continuing on in the show. Series 1-5 is the best of BVTS for me so I'll put up with him.

But I will forever rage about him coming over to ATS.
He wasn't needed.
 

DeadlyDuo

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And yet particularly the last two series became a show literally about spuffy (IMO) to the point that it was it's main focus.
I agree. I'd say from Season 5 onwards, Spike ceased to be a character in his own right and was there purely to serve Spuffy since that became his sole storyline.

I find that they made Spike a character that couldn't cope on his own in the long term. I mean he got with Harmony and it never came across to me that he really like or respect her. But he rather be with her than be by himself. He's just a little too clingy and obsessive. His main purpose for his life is just about living for the person he is in love with. No thought or ambitious for himself in his own life but what his life means for and with his love one. If he can't have that love then there is nothing left for him so what can he do to get that love back. It comes over to me as unhealthy way to love.
Spike was doing okay in Season 4 post-chip. The problem started in Season 5 when Spuffy became his sole storyline.

His reaction to Drusilla breaking up with him in Lovers Walk is understandable. They'd been together for over a century and she broke up with him because of the truce with Buffy which he partially did to save Dru (which was actually necessary since Buffy had intended on killing her). Fool for Love then tried to retcon this break up to be all about Spuffy, continuing the way Spuffy tried to take over the series.

It's very telling when a ship has to try and destroy another (superior IMO) ship in order to fly rather than standing on its own two feet. The writers had Drusilla appear in Season 5 literally just so Spike could reject her for Spuffy because there was no chance of Spuffy ever being a thing whilst there was still the ghost of Sprusilla hanging around.

But I will forever rage about him coming over to ATS.
He wasn't needed.
Angel only got a Season 5 on the proviso that Spike was brought over to the show, hence why his return was so heavily publicised by the network despite the writers intending for it to be a surprise for the audience.
 

Btvs fan

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Spike was the most interesting and organic of the 2 love interests even if the writers hated it and did everything to undermine it. That failed and fans are still for it. It holds up better long term than B/A imo
 

Mrs Gordo

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Spike was the most interesting and organic of the 2 love interests even if the writers hated it and did everything to undermine it. That failed and fans are still for it. It holds up better long term than B/A imo
The writers hated it? What evidence do you have of that? Jane Espensen would probably marry Spike herself if she could. Joss has always said he thinks b/a is for the masses and s/b was his personal preference. I guess this is the first time I hear any allegations that the writers hated the pairing.
 

spikenbuffy

My true nature. You want a taste ?
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Spike, I've always loved his character, S7 was the first season of BTVS that I have seen on TV when I was a little more than 10 years and I loved Chosen when Spike died with a smile in his face and that last Spuffy moment was great. So from this moment I loved BTVS and wanted to watch this show. When TV rerun BTVS from the beginning, I was so happy to see Spike in S2, I knew that he was gonna be there till the end of S7 have a journey's character and have great moments. I remember how I loved when he hit his wheelchair in IOHEFY, his speech about the world in Becoming, his moments in Lover's Walk and how I was happy when he got back in S4 even appeared in the opening rather Seth Green.

I've always loved his cool attitude, his badassness, his journey from S2 to ATS S5, his pathetic and funny moments. He's so funny and entertaining, the way he walks, talks, smiles... I love how JM plays Spike. His sensibility towards women in his life that he loves. The way he 's nothing without love and would do anything like when after he dreamt about Buffy looking in horror and then the next episodes, he accept it. The way that he doesn't want to see Buffy hurting if she lost Dawn in Intervention even as a soulless vampire.... Plus he is sexy lol.

I love Spike more than Angel but now that being said I have nothing against Angel, he's in my top 10 favorite characters of Buffyverse (Spike 2nd and Angel 6th in my top 10). I just find Spike more entertaining than Angel, in a TV show that what I need to see (entertainment). Plus Spike's strong feelings about his love for women really gets to me.
 

Puppet

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The writers hated it? What evidence do you have of that? Jane Espensen would probably marry Spike herself if she could. Joss has always said he thinks b/a is for the masses and s/b was his personal preference. I guess this is the first time I hear any allegations that the writers hated the pairing.
Probably referring to S6, which I find weird; all that attention paid to Spuffy tells me they did the opposite of hate them, but I suppose some viewers may see it differently *shrugs*
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
The one that did the episode Crush maybe?
B
Btvs fan
That was David Fury and before the episode eveb aired, he did an interview in which he compared Spuffy fans to serial killer lovers.
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
omg your banner!!! I love it....

Btvs fan

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The writers hated it? What evidence do you have of that? Jane Espensen would probably marry Spike herself if she could. Joss has always said he thinks b/a is for the masses and s/b was his personal preference. I guess this is the first time I hear any allegations that the writers hated the pairing.
Well David Fury always said he hated it and Doug Petrie made pretty clear in As you Were he has always been for Riley. Theres literally Script directions on how great Riley is.
The writers only saw Spuffy as a chance to do the abusive boyfriend storyline. They didn't mean for it to be liked. Why do you think they threw in the AR ? To show how evil Spike is.

Even back in Something Blue it was only done to show why Buffy is wrong to be into the bad boy thing and to show why Riley is awesome. Of course they had the complete opposite effect :cool:
 

Btvs fan

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Probably referring to S6, which I find weird; all that attention paid to Spuffy tells me they did the opposite of hate them, but I suppose some viewers may see it differently *shrugs*
Stuff like joyless sex in an alleyway and Buffy pounding Spike to a pulp show s6 Spuffy was never meant to be seen as a good thing. It's just the actors had amazing chemistry and the characters clicked. It was all unintended by the writers. It happened organically even though they tried to fight it Though admittedly that's only my opinion and I'm sure others feel differently.
 

Puppet

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Stuff like joyless sex in an alleyway and Buffy pounding Spike to a pulp show s6 Spuffy was never meant to be seen as a good thing. It's just the actors had amazing chemistry and the characters clicked. It was all unintended by the writers. It happened organically even though they tried to fight it Though admittedly that's only my opinion and I'm sure others feel differently.
Except that there are plenty of Spuffy shippers - myself included - that ship it because of how destructive and unhealthy it is. What I'm saying is that the writers, imo, meant for the pairing to be exactly what it was, all along. They never meant for it to be loved or hated, just for it to be. Whedon has always said that he wants the fans to take from the show what they want, to read into it what they want, he doesn't want to place ideas into our heads.
 

Mrs Gordo

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The writers only saw Spuffy as a chance to do the abusive boyfriend storyline. They didn't mean for it to be liked. Why do you think they threw in the AR ? To show how evil Spike is.
Stuff like joyless sex in an alleyway and Buffy pounding Spike to a pulp show s6 Spuffy was never meant to be seen as a good thing.
Well... yes, but that's just - spuffy? I mean that IS the dynamic - at least during that time period - season 7 notwithstanding. That is not the writer's "not liking" the relationship that is just how the dynamic is written. And if I'm not mistaken that's what draws some of the fans to the pairing? It's a dark and twisty thing that some fans enjoy. It was never meant to be written as saccharine. I do recall that some writers expressed surprise at how a section of fandom was super into the relationship, particularly David Fury. So I guess I can see what you mean in that respect?
 

Btvs fan

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Angel's a better boyfriend than Spike. At least for him it is selfless when it comes to Buffy rather than selfish.
Is he ?
He first spied a 15 year old Buffy from a blacked out car. He then spent the first year just being the cryptic mystery guy refusing to help her because in his own words he was afraid. Xander has to force him to help in Prophecy Girl. That seems pretty selfish IMO
When Spike gets back in Angel S5, he stays away from Buffy and let's her get on with her life. That seems pretty unselfish to me.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
The blacked out car doesn't count for Angel as he was a passenger (and a broken spirited one at that). I don't recall Spike staying away from Buffy even in s5, though I recall Giles telling him they were not his way to Buffy (so he got the bot)

FaithLehane16

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Is he ?
He first spied a 15 year old Buffy from a blacked out car. He then spent the first year just being the cryptic mystery guy refusing to help her because in his own words he was afraid. Xander has to force him to help in Prophecy Girl. That seems pretty selfish IMO
When Spike gets back in Angel S5, he stays away from Buffy and let's her get on with her life. That seems pretty unselfish to me.
Angel is still selfless. I think your vocabulary is messed up.

He was just trying to cope with Buffy about to die. He didn't want her to die.

Spike was very selfish in Season 5 when he was faking his death. He told Andrew not to tell Buffy that he was alive.
 
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B
Btvs fan
Spike was not faking his death, seeing as how he and Angel went to help Buffy in The Girl in Question

DagonSphere

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I'm more of a Bangel shipper, but I must say that Spike later becomes the better boyfriend in season seven, he is going to extreme lengths to become a better person for her, working hard to improve himself for her, and becomes her steady rock, supporting her without any expectations and his speech to her in "Touched" about how he loves her for what she is rather than what he wants from her is really touching and beautiful.

In seasons five and six though, Spike is very problematic, with his stalking, kidnapping and abuse and I think they never properly dealt with his attempted rape of Buffy, which deserved more exploration in season seven. I'm not opposed to a redemption narrative where a rapist can become a better man if he really tries hard enough to be worthy and to be a better man and make amends, though my general stance on rape is that it is unforgivable and that rapists are garbage. In this case it's also very icky and questionable, as he basically turns into a viable love interest without them tackling the attempted rape heads-on, but it does make for a better story to deal with how a remorseful guy deals with the horror he was capable of rather than just make him an one-dimensional villain.

As far as shipping goes, my heart will always remain with Angel though, but I must say, looking back at it now, I see Sarah's and David's fantastic chemistry, but Buffy's and Angel's relationship feels a lot emptier to me. I don't feel like there is all that much that connects them and Angel in itself is a far more boring character, at least on Buffy.
 
B
Btvs fan
Regards the AR it was dealt with in Beneath You.
Besides Angel is also a rapist ie regards Holts wife "i repeated on her" and of course the Gypsy girl.
Youve also got Xander in The Pack.
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
@Btvs fan Xander shouldn't be discussed in a Spike or Angel thread.
thetopher
thetopher
^ Beneath You never 'dealt' with anything in regards to the AR. That assertion is laughable.

FaithLehane16

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At least Angel never built a robot of Buffy to have sex with it.

@Btvs fan He still faked his death in a way. He still had insecurities of Buffy choosing Angel over him, trying to make himself look better than Angel by choosing to not go to her.
 

CHK DeWilSon

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Pacey ? From Dawson's creek ? Bad boy ?
Yes a bad boy character as opposed to Dawson that was suppose to be the good boy character.

Plus it was a loose term as I'm not saying he is totally like Spike or Damon as in evil killing vampire!!

Of course that's not all to Pacey but that is the slot he was in at the start with his traits because of his family life and how he had an affair with his teacher!

This is a thing that many many tv shows do with two male characters. One (usually the lead character) must be the 'moralistic' good boy and the sidekick is the 'break the rules' bad boy although these lines get blurry the longer the show goes on.

So yeah that's how I see Pacey in an overview as the good guy verus the bad boy trope.

And I thought it was basically establish thatnSpike wasn't exactly Buffy's boyfriend in the 7th series because then her kissing Angel would have meant she technically cheated on him??
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
Ah ok, I know what you mean but yeah, he 's surely not a bad guy like Damon or soulless Spike who are evil and killers unlike Pacey who is surely not that.

Btvs fan

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At least Angel never built a robot of Buffy to have sex with it.

@Btvs fan He still faked his death in a way. He still had insecurities of Buffy choosing Angel over him, trying to make himself look better than Angel by choosing to not go to her.
Buffy said loved him. Its perfectly possible to love more than 1 person so I believe her. She also sent Angel away not Spike.
 
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