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Spike - why Buffy changed her attitude in S7

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
Hey all!

So I have seen a lot of people discussing S7 Spuffy and I wanted to test a theory with you.

Now before S7, Buffy always saw Spike for what he was : a vampire. Even if she had sex with him, even if he was fighting evil, even if she somewhat develop feelings for him that she doesn't have for others vampires. Because she is the slayer, she can never let her guard down with him and never truely love him without trust.

Then came season S7 where she learns that Spike has a soul. Because of her experience with Angel, she now believe that Spike is a good person and more importantly a different person from Spike the souless vampire. Like with Angel/Angelus, she separate him from the monster he was before. She can now let herself feel for him as he has finally gain her trust. This also, explains why she defended him against the scoobies like she did with Angel in S3.

What do you think? If we put aside our allegion (Spuffy or Bangel) do you believe this explains why Buffy was so protective of Spike?

Lets discuss :D
 

Puppet

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Personally I feel like that was only part of it. If some stranger had shown up in S7, being a vampire with a soul, sure Buffy would have been helpful as proven by S1-S2, but I doubt she would have the bond that she had with Spike in that season. They had a history and I feel like it's a bit disrespectful for anyone to overlook that and say her acceptance of him was just because of the soul. No offense meant to the OP, of course :)
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Good precision, I do agree that she had feelings for Spike before he got his soul.
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
People tend to forget that Buffy is fairly hard on Spike in s7. There is this great tender moment, where Spike talks to Buffy about Drusilla. BOM! It is not Buffy, it is the first evil. Buffy appears and tells him to get his shit together.

Also:

"I get you know. I understand the violence inside."
"Violence? You think you have insight now, just because your soul is drenched in blood? You don't know me!"

:D
 

thrasherpix

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His having a soul made a difference, and I support her on that.

However, that's not an excuse for why Buffy is reckless with Spike. Willow loved Oz but they still locked him up when he was dangerous. When Buffy became dangerous (as her soul was being sucked out by her first roommate in early season 4), Giles and the Scoobies restrained her, not say, "We love her, so let's let her run loose even though she may hut people!' Buffy didn't do that in season 7. She was an idiot, even genuine love wouldn't excuse it, and the only reason it worked was because of blatant plot armor. (And so I say that's because of bad writing, not because Spike had a soul.)

I also didn't like her comment of "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" She wasn't in love with Spike, she was using him, though I think her abandonment issues showed up when she saw Spike and Anya (s6) since she was so hurt. Even then, right after the pain, Buffy soon tells Spike "Ask me again why I could never love you." It was a jarring retcon to say that Buffy and Spike were in love. Having sex does not mean people are in love, even if they have other bonds and shared history that tie them together.
 

Mrs Gordo

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His having a soul made a difference, and I support her on that.

However, that's not an excuse for why Buffy is reckless with Spike. Willow loved Oz but they still locked him up when he was dangerous. When Buffy became dangerous (as her soul was being sucked out by her first roommate in early season 4), Giles and the Scoobies restrained her, not say, "We love her, so let's let her run loose even though she may hut people!' Buffy didn't do that in season 7. She was an idiot, even genuine love wouldn't excuse it, and the only reason it worked was because of blatant plot armor. (And so I say that's because of bad writing, not because Spike had a soul.)

I also didn't like her comment of "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" She wasn't in love with Spike, she was using him, though I think her abandonment issues showed up when she saw Spike and Anya (s6) since she was so hurt. Even then, right after the pain, Buffy soon tells Spike "Ask me again why I could never love you." It was a jarring retcon to say that Buffy and Spike were in love. Having sex does not mean people are in love, even if they have other bonds and shared history that tie them together.
Well said. Add to this the chaining Angel up in Season 3 when she found him feral post hell drop. She was taking no chances. But no not Season 7 Buffy.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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Spuffy was more than sex. Willow restored Buffy's body, but you could argue it was Spike who truly brought her back to the world.

Also, Spike was useful. The Scoobies always lacked muscle.
 

Mrs Gordo

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but you could argue it was Spike who truly brought her back to the world.
How so? Was it when he told her that she belonged in the shadows with him as he screwed her over a balcony railing? Or was it when he told her she came back wrong?

Lol. I mean really Spike was not helpful to her in Season 6. He was a symptom of destructive behavior.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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How so? Was it when he told her that she belonged in the shadows with him as he screwed her over a balcony railing? Or was it when he told her she came back wrong?

Lol. I mean really Spike was not helpful to her in Season 6. He was a symptom of destructive behavior.
Poor example :p Spike says that after having been angry at Buffy for keeping their relationship secret.

Spike represents the best and worst of life. Violence, passion, love, lust, etc. Buffy yearns for the peace and serenity of Heaven. It is too bad Gone is such a hated episode, because it contains one of Spike's best pep talks.

Dawn also plays an important role. Her accusation in Dead Things is spot on, methinks.

IMO, Buffy must find a compromise. She cannot spend her life wishing she was dead, but neither can she become like Spike. If I was showrunner, I would not have brought Spike back for an eight season. S8 would have had to be very different from the preceding two. It probably would have been, because the show seemed to reboot itself every two years.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Spike says that after having been angry at Buffy for keeping their relationship secret.
And does that excuse or justify his behavior?

I'm not going to turn this into a long drawn out argument I understand your position and I'm sure you know mine on Spuffy, especially Season 6.
 

Priceless

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Buffy loved Spike in S6, she was in love with him. He was the only person she could be herself with so how could she not love him. She also resented him for exactly the same reason. Even after the AR she went looking for him and was disappointed when he wasn't there.

In S7 they already had a connection, and the soul finally meant she could show her true feelings for him openly. She even admits she loved him in S6 with the line 'why does eveyone think I'm still in love with Spike'.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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And does that excuse or justify his behavior?
No. That is why he must die :p In fiction, the tragic characters are usually the most compelling. They are great in their own way, but their flaws doom them. Spike represent an extreme position. Buffy must walk on a tightrope.

Look at it this way. Buffy and Angel jumped ships, because their love was destructive. Spike would never do that. He would ride anything to the end. Of course, Buffy cannot replace love with pragmatism, because that would make her too callous. Riley was safe, but too boring. Hopefully she can achieve a middle ground.
 

Monkey Pants

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Imo the only reason Buffy accepted Spike in season 7 is because the writers loved Spike and wanted him to get what he wanted. For Buffy to ignore her own trauma and somehow have feelings for Spike and side with him against Robin and Giles is so annoying and gross and ooc imo. And for them to write the whole fight between her and everyone else, which was horrible and again ooc, just so they could have Spike be the only one to go after her and "the only one to care about her and understand her"? Ridiculous. Season 7 is just so contrived.
 

GraceK

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Even after the AR she went looking for him and was disappointed when he wasn't there.
I have to disagree with this part. She literally only went to look for him because Dawn, who was unaware of what he did, was insisting on staying with him. She wasn't disappointed, she was more surprised that he just took off. The idea that she was so was in love with her attempted rapist that she was "disappointed " he left... Is actually kind of gross and disturbing. I'm not gonna argue whether she loved him or not in season 6, although personally I don't think she did.

The next season you can see she has flashbacks and PTSD when she sees him again.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Look at it this way. Buffy and Angel jumped ships, because their love was destructive.
Must. Resist. The bait...

But to the OP's theory:

Then came season S7 where she learns that Spike has a soul. Because of her experience with Angel, she now believe that Spike is a good person and more importantly a different person from Spike the souless vampire. Like with Angel/Angelus, she separate him from the monster he was before. She can now let herself feel for him as he has finally gain her trust. This also, explains why she defended him against the scoobies like she did with Angel in S3.
I don't believe it is very realistic for her to "now believe that Spike is a good person." Certainly people with souls can be good/bad/neutral etc. and Buffy knows this from Faith, Warren/Nerd trio. But I do think it is consistent with Buffy's character to want to see the good in a souled being. See Angel Season 1, See Faith in Season 3, so I don't blame Buffy for wanting to give Spike the benefit of the doubt to try and be good, to find his redemption. The way she goes about it in Season 7 is out of character as she consistently places people in danger where as in earlier Seasons she was smart enough to chain Angel up until she knew what his status was and she asked Angel to restrain faith until she could see reason.

And certainly Buffy's history with Spike is at play here. You cannot be intimate with someone for that many months without developing some type of attachment. I don't agree she loved him (I personally agree with Spike in Chosen when he says "no you don't) but I do believe she had feelings, conflicted however they may be due to the toxic nature of their relationship. But I think the difference in Season 7 is as @Athene says, she feels a tremendous amount of guilt for using Spike during her depression and because she thinks she is "responsible" for his going and getting his soul. I don't agree with Buffy but I think these emotions and these thoughts are reasonable given their past. I think guilt is the main motivating factor for most of her behavior in Season 7 towards Spike.
 

Mylie

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Must. Resist. The bait...

But to the OP's theory:



I don't believe it is very realistic for her to "now believe that Spike is a good person." Certainly people with souls can be good/bad/neutral etc. and Buffy knows this from Faith, Warren/Nerd trio. But I do think it is consistent with Buffy's character to want to see the good in a souled being. See Angel Season 1, See Faith in Season 3, so I don't blame Buffy for wanting to give Spike the benefit of the doubt to try and be good, to find his redemption. The way she goes about it in Season 7 is out of character as she consistently places people in danger where as in earlier Seasons she was smart enough to chain Angel up until she knew what his status was and she asked Angel to restrain faith until she could see reason.

And certainly Buffy's history with Spike is at play here. You cannot be intimate with someone for that many months without developing some type of attachment. I don't agree she loved him (I personally agree with Spike in Chosen when he says "no you don't) but I do believe she had feelings, conflicted however they may be due to the toxic nature of their relationship. But I think the difference in Season 7 is as @Athene says, she feels a tremendous amount of guilt for using Spike during her depression and because she thinks she is "responsible" for his going and getting his soul. I don't agree with Buffy but I think these emotions and these thoughts are reasonable given their past. I think guilt is the main motivating factor for most of her behavior in Season 7 towards Spike.
Interesting... you made me realize that this is sort if a parallel to s2 when she feels responsible/guilty for Angel losing his soul. I don't even know where I'm trying to go with this lol.
 

Priceless

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I have to disagree with this part. She literally only went to look for him because Dawn, who was unaware of what he did, was insisting on staying with him. She wasn't disappointed, she was more surprised that he just took off. The idea that she was so was in love with her attempted rapist that she was "disappointed " he left... Is actually kind of gross and disturbing. I'm not gonna argue whether she loved him or not in season 6, although personally I don't think she did.

The next season you can see she has flashbacks and PTSD when she sees him again.
Agreed that Buffy had ptsd and flashbacks when she's with Spike again. But not when she first sees him in the basement, at that moment she stares at him and allows him to stroke her face (or go to stroke her).

When Clem tells Buffy that Spike has left town it's clear that Buffy has mixed feelings about it. I am not disagreeing that to feel disappointed that your attempted rapist has left isn't gross or disturbing . . but I do think that's what she's feeling. Love isn't rational.

I'm quoting myself here, but Spike was the only one she could bear to be around, the only one she was truthful with and he was the only one who made her feel anything. I don't think it's possible for Buffy not to love Spike. Why wouldn't you love the only thing in this world you can stand to be around?

When she breaks up with him, she doesn't say 'I don't love you', but 'I can't love you', which I think means she can't allow herself to love him. Her whole life as the Slayer has been built around the notion that not having a soul makes you evil and loving Spike as he is, turns her whole world view upside down.

When Clem tells Buffy that Spike has left town it's clear that Buffy has mixed feelings about it. I am not disagreeing that to feel disappointed that your attempted rapist has left isn't gross or disturbing . . but I do think that's what she's feeling, and those are feelings she has to come to accept about herself. She's not the worlds definition of 'normal', but who the hell is. She loved Angel after he came back from hell, even though he's killed Jenny and tortured Giles . . . Buffy is loving and forgiving by nature, so I think this is totally in character for her.
 

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
For Buffy to ignore her own trauma and somehow have feelings for Spike and side with him against Robin and Giles is so annoying and gross and ooc imo.
But don't you think she didn't ignore the trauma but only decided to seperate Spike souless's actions vs Spike with a soul? Like with Angelus killing Jenny and still loving Angel?

I do agree with you that they took things too far by making Spike more important than her friends to her because it's like she didn't learn anything from her depression which is stupid. I can accept her change of heart for Spike but it could have been done better for sure!
 
jls
jls
I really agree with the ensouled Spike vs soulless Spike (attempted rapist) and the comparison with Angel and Angelus (murderer and torturer). People overlook that comparison frequently imo.

flow

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Then came season S7 where she learns that Spike has a soul. Because of her experience with Angel, she now believe that Spike is a good person and more importantly a different person from Spike the souless vampire
I don`t believe, she thinks, he is a good person just because of the Soul. She knows, that there are many bad persons with souls and also good persons with souls who sometimes do bad things.

But she believes, that he can be a good person and can choose to do good and she is willing to give him the chance to prove himself.

She is definetly taking a risk there. But it is not necessarily a bigger risk than having a powerful witch, who once went dark, a carpenter who once summoned a demon that killed many innocent People or a watcher who believes himslef justified in killing humans aroun.

No matter, what her feelings about Spike were in S6, she knows him at this point better, than anybody else does. The connection between them does not cloud her judgement (as Giles believes), it is the reason for her trust in him. She trusts, that he can be a better man and wants to be a better man. She says at some point in S7 "You faced the monster inside yourself and you fought back". That is basically, what she sees in him in S7 and it is enough for her.

flow
 
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