Spuffy was the most realistic relationship in the show.

[Bluebird]

When you're attacked a lot you percieve attack. I tried searching for your OP but maybe it's a bit far back. You did moan you'd almost quit the board because of mean ole Spuffys if it's happened before then it's possible you are 'being attacked' because you are attacking even if you don't realise it. I know Dora seems to have a problem seeing the difference between persecution and contradiction so it's not as if there isn't precedent for it.

This was the original problem. There was a perceived personal attack in my criticism of Spike, when it was just my opinion of a character. I've been involved with this fandom for years, and people take an attack on a ship as deeply personal and it becomes as contentious as politics. I do take issue with the way some Spuffys argue their point ie to say Angel's a paedo - is just not effective. It's never a good argument to attack your supposed opponent rather than giving positives of your side. But I don't have any problem with people shipping, I mostly find it odd because I don't, but I respect the passion people have and I can understand why they get invested. Do you, who cares. I certainly don't.

I didn't quit the boards cos I felt bullied by the mean Spuffys, as you said. I don't feel victimised, I was just bored by it all. Ask someone who was around at that time, they'd probably tell you the same thing, regardless of their Buffy's man preference.

And yeah I'm a big moany grump. Most people know this.

 

[katmobile]

This was the original problem. There was a perceived personal attack in my criticism of Spike, when it was just my opinion of a character. I've been involved with this fandom for years, and people take an attack on a ship as deeply personal and it becomes as contentious as politics. I do take issue with the way some Spuffys argue their point ie to say Angel's a paedo - is just not effective. It's never a good argument to attack your supposed opponent rather than giving positives of your side. But I don't have any problem with people shipping, I mostly find it odd because I don't, but I respect the passion people have and I can understand why they get invested. Do you, who cares. I certainly don't.

I didn't quit the boards cos I felt bullied by the mean Spuffys, as you said. I don't feel victimised, I was just bored by it all. Ask someone who was around at that time, they'd probably tell you the same thing, regardless of their Buffy's man preference.

And yeah I'm a big moany grump. Most people know this.

Can understand if you've not got a dog in that the fight it's boring. I do have a dog in the fight and yeah it gets tedious enough I wish I didn't especially the rubbish that gets spewed. I wish we could live and let live too but I'm not gonna accept someone else's truth. Prob best if you want to stay out of it don't declare a preference and stay off some threads.

 

[Btvs fan]

I completely agree! We did that one year and the place went into a frenzy. All trace of Spike was deleted. It was great.

Seeing as this is the Spike forum and a Spike thread that might make this thread ... Bare 😃

 

[Bluebird]

Can understand if you've not got a dog in that the fight it's boring. I do have a dog in the fight and yeah it gets tedious enough I wish I didn't especially the rubbish that gets spewed. I wish we could live and let live too but I'm not gonna accept someone else's truth. Prob best if you want to stay out of it don't declare a preference and stay off some threads.

But why should I have to stay away from this thread specifically, you know? This wasn't a Bangel vs Spuffy thread, it was a question based on personal perspective of reality and relationships, which is really the threads I'm interested in now since I've been here so long and seen so many discussions. You may notice I don't usually post that often. I like reading posts by new viewers but I don't feel I have much to contribute without repeating myself after 10 years of discussion. Certain threads take my fancy because they are asking a more thoughtful question than the same old Buffy chats.

 

[Spanky]

Seeing as this is the Spike forum and a Spike thread that might make this thread ... Bare 😃

Oh, it did. That was the best part of it. The whole Spike threads were gone. No hint of Spike anywhere. It was amazing. So many Spike fans were gnashing their teeth and weeping on their keyboards for the injustice.

 

[Btvs fan]

Oh, it did. That was the best part of it. The whole Spike threads were gone. No hint of Spike anywhere. It was amazing. So many Spike fans were gnashing their teeth and weeping on their keyboards for the injustice.

Lol you know what I'm gonna ask next don't you. If you don't like Spike why post in his forum 🤓🤔

 

[Spanky]

Lol you know what I'm gonna ask next don't you. If you don't like Spike why post in his forum 🤓🤔

I post where I like, that's the point of a discussion forum- to discuss things. And who said I didn't like Spike? I just thought it was funny that one time in April all of the Spike threads were gone.

 

[spikenbuffy]

It was because of April's fool lol

 

[SiobanD1981]

This is such a controversial discussion and probably every aspect has already been discussed before but here I go. I love Spuffy.

As a teenager, I was in love with Angel. I cried when Buffy killed him in S2. He was the tragic hero that I wanted to find IRL (yes, I was 15 years old).

Now that I’m 20 years older, I truly prefer Spike/Buffy. I think that they both grow together throughout the show (something that we didn’t see with Angel, prob because he left). But I can empathize with those that are not Spuffy fans. Spike was portraited as an opportunistic character, that soon changed to be somewhat pathetic and obsessive.

But by S7, he was no longer that individual, he finally became a “better” man, imo (yes, I missed the funny and sarcastic Spike at times, but I loved who he became towards the end). Both Buffy and Spike went through life changing circumstances that made them a better fit imo.

But, despite having my heart broken by those statements, I agree with JM. They did need a little bit more time to finish making Spike fully deserving of Buffy – she has her own flaws, of course. However, in spite of the shortcomings of the characters and of the relationship, I still root for Spuffy as a couple that matured together and that loved each other in their own way.

I think that people and feelings are not static and that’s why I love Spuffy so much, they grow and become stronger individually and together (as a couple) as the seasons go by. Plus he’s really hot .

 

[DeadlyDuo]

A pattern is three or more instances of the same specific behavior, I would've thought. Like if Riley tried to undermine Buffy's confidence in her home life three or more times.
Tbh two examples of something that could be taken multiple ways is not a pattern, it could be a co-incidence.

Repeated patterns throughout a relationship examples: 'You came back wrong' or 'you're a creature of the dark, like me'. Controlling behavior by undermining Buffy's confidence, self of self, isolating her from all her friends.

Riley repeatedly grabbed Buffy's arm, repeatedly refers to what Buffy needs without asking Buffy herself etc.

Briley would never tick the boxes of what constitutes an abusive relationship because it hadn't reached that stage yet (unlike Spuffy which we can agree was a terrible relationship for both participants).

What we can see though is instances where Riley's behaviour does come under some headings but doesn't have the frequency (aside from the arm grabbing during arguments which is an aggressive gesture) for it to be classed as abusive. It's still "red flag behaviour" though, as in behaviour that should be addressed (though unfortunately never really was until the final argument which was then undermined by Xander's speech).

A non-ship related example of red flag behaviour would be Kennedy's treatment of Chloe. By definition, Bullying has to be deliberate and persistent. Now Kennedy's behaviour in that training scene shows clear indicators of bullying towards Chloe but because Chloe killed herself before any more instances could happen, technically it's not bullying because it lacks the persistence factor- it goes from Kennedy was bullying Chloe to Kennedy was mean to Chloe.

6 red flags that someone is a bully:
Repeatedly upset someone around them
Lack of empathy
Can get aggressive
Thrives around insecure people
Spreads malicious rumours
Misuses power or position over others

Kennedy clearly hits several of those points during the training scene but only hits the aggressive one throughout the rest of Season 7. There are "red flags" that indicate she is a bully, though not enough instances to "prove" it.

This is so incredibly vague and nebulous. You call it 'red flag behavior; that could lead to something worse' whereas anyone else might go 'wow, that was a douche kinda move, what's up with that?' and then look at the context.

And the context doesn't support Riley getting more and more controlling, but getting more and more insecure and therefore self-destructive as he tries to 'connect' with Buffy on some level.

Here is an article from the same place you got yours from entitled 10 Relationship Red Flags 10 Relationship Red Flags

Feel free not to read it as I didn't read yours (so it's only fair) but the titles are:

Lack of communication
Irresponsible, immature, and unpredictable.
Lack of trust
Significant family and friends don’t like your partner
Controlling behavior
Feeling insecure in the relationship.
A dark or secretive past
Non-resolution of past relationships
The relationship is built on the need to feel needed.
Abusive behaviour


Briley hits several of those points, particularly number 9.

There are some instances where Riley's behaviour comes under the headings you listed, however there is not enough frequency for it to be declared "abusive" or "controlling" outright. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it's not "red flag behaviour" which is indicative that it could evolve to that state were it given time. So Riley isn't "controlling" of Buffy per se, but he is showing behaviour of control towards her. It's in its very early stages and could easily be missed (I missed it the first few times) but the elements are there.

I disagree. Buffy never treated Riley like an important part of her life. She never treated him as a confidante and came to him when she needed help. When things got on top of her she shut everyone else out. She didn't do that when Angel was around.
So Riley has some reason to be insecure, it just doesn't excuse any of his subsequent behavior.

Buffy clearly doesn't see it that way.

BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
BUFFY: Well, whose fault its that? Because I'm telling you, this is it, this is me. This is the package. And if it's so deficient that you need to get your kicks elsewhere ... then we really have a problem.


Riley's put out that Buffy isn't crying on his shoulder and acting how he thinks she should act in certain situations..

"It's okay. Just let it out. I'm right here."

I find this line kind of creepy (and that could just be my opinion) but it's like Riley wants Buffy to break down in tears so that he can be the one to comfort her.

Season 6 Buffy would be Riley's perfect Buffy if he was still there (and hadn't helped resurrect her). He would've loved to have her confide in him like she did with Spike in Afterlife. He would've loved helping her try and hold it all together and comforting her because she would've "needed" him.

Question is though, would it have made Buffy feel even worse?

As bad as Spuffy got it never pretended to be something other than it was. Things got difficult when Spike was no longer content to be Buffy's dirty little secret anymore and that's when she felt like she was losing control.

With Riley she would still be using him to "feel" (like she did with Spike) however their past relationship would make it even harder to get out of and I think in some ways Season 6 Buffy would feel even more trapped.

Wait, how can he jump to a conclusion if he already assumes Buffy has slept with Angel?
Both can't be true. Either he always thought that Buffy and Angel were going to have sex, and therefore he should just immediately attack Angel when he sees him- 'cause evil now- or he took Buffy at her word, despite being upset about it, and then jumped to a conclusion only when Angel barges into town looking for Buffy and beating people up.

Riley jumped to the conclusion that Buffy and Angel had slept together when Angel came to town (though obviously "feared" that they'd sleep together which was then "confirmed") and it was only after when Buffy denied it, that he seemed to accept it hadn't happened (though he doesn't seem as accepting of it as he made out given that he brings up Angel in arguments when Buffy hasn't even mentioned his name).

Riley can be a jealous idiot? Because most males in the Buffyverse can be jealous idiots I guess.
You keep on bringing this up like it defines Riley's behavior towards Buffy and all other guys- which is what a possessive, controlling boyfriend would be like. Riley is not jealous of Xander and Buffy hanging out, or thinks there's anything between Buffy and Spike.
To a controlling personality Buffy being around any other attractive male would be unacceptable and he would comment on it. Because it would be about control, not about insecurity

The only guys Buffy hangs/hung out with are: Xander, Giles, Oz, Spike and Angel. Given that Oz is out of the picture and has been more or less since Wild at Heart (so pre-Briley), he doesn't really count. Out of the 4 other guys Buffy knows, Riley has tried to warn 2 of them off, that's 50%

Giles is a father figure and Riley has spent enough time with Xander to know he's not a romantic rival. Spike and Angel on the other hand, plus Dracula, seem to be Buffy's "type" hence why Riley feels the need to "step in".

I can be, or it can be a simple apology for acting like an ass-hat. It's not a particularly good apology but, in this instance, I very much doubt that Riley is trying to manipulate Buffy. He's been beat up and humiliated a bit by her ex and is actually a bit pathetic here.
His explanation is lame, but its also kind of a trope. You might not like the trope but that's separate from this being controlling behavior.

Riley essentially tries to blame his going to see the vampire prostitutes on Buffy because they made him feel "needed" whereas Buffy didn't. He blames his actions towards Angel as being "so in love with [Buffy} that [he] can't think straight".

He's trying to justify his crappy behaviour by relating it back to Buffy in some form.

The curse and the cause of ti breaking is pretty much THE big thing in Buffy and Angel's relationship so it is odd that Buffy wasn't clear about it.
I'm just saying that Buffy could've been more forthright/clearer, not that she necessarily should've been.

But isn't that kind of contradictory? Angel was pre-Briley so it really wasn't any of Riley's business so why should Buffy talk to him about it?

Riley only uses the word transference because he doesn't get 'vamp mind control' or whatever; he's rationalizing it into something he can understand. Plus insecure.

I disagree. Here's the interaction from that scene:

RILEY: And what did I tell you? (to the others) That's thrall.
XANDER: You're saying Dracula has some sort of freaky mind control over her? You're watching too many creature features, man.
BUFFY: But it does seem like he has this ... control over me, I ... even though a big part of me is resisting.


Riley clearly understands the concept of mind control because Xander (under Dracula's control) tries to divert him from that conclusion and Buffy practically confirms it, yet Riley still insinuates that it was something Buffy wanted because of "transference" even though she says that a "big part of [her] was resisting".

No, they're not remotely similar.

I did specify that they weren't to the same degree. The point was that Riley is saying that Buffy "let" something happen despite her making it clear it was against her will. The only other thing against Buffy's will was the AR hence the comparison, even though one is clearly more severe than the other.

One of the big problems I have with your theory is that it actually belittles and trivializes ACTUAL controlling relationships, which can be incredibly destructive to an individual's self-esteem and personal life. You cannot fathom the harm done to people caught up them because otherwise you would never make such a fatuous comparison.

I look at Buffy and I never see somebody who is in a controlling relationship, and to be honest Riley is just too staid, unimaginative and well, decent to every play the kind of scummy mind-games that characterize these toxic couples.

I don't think Riley necessarily realises exactly what it is he's doing. He doesn't set out to be deliberately controlling of Buffy, but he's so desperate for her to need him, that his behaviour over compensates and comes across in that way. He probably thinks he is "white knighting" it in regards to Angel and Spike, in truth he's warning two male characters off from ever speaking to his girlfriend, one who has history with said girl friend and the other who fits the profile of the previous boyfriend (and who also has feelings for said girlfriend). Buffy had no say in Riley's actions, he took it upon himself to decide that Angel and Spike shouldn't see her.

Okay, go ahead, count the grabs. In a world where couples often fight to the death is there anything more ridiculous than counting the grabs.

Five! Three separate occasions, three on one occasion.

It's not acceptable for Riley to shove Willow out the way, so why should it be acceptable for him to grab Buffy aggressively?

lol of course it isn't coincidental, Buffy persuaded him with her mouth!

That sounds a lot dirtier than you intended.

Buffy told Riley in no uncertain terms what he meant to her and that had the desired effect.

So yeah, I actually think Riley was genuine and not using his impending death to toy with Buffy's emotions just so he could hear the word 'need' come out of her mouth.

BUFFY: What's going on? What are you doing? What if you have a heart attack?
RILEY: (puts hands on her shoulders) Listen to me. Calm down.
BUFFY: Me calm down? I'm not the one with a pulse of a hundred and fifty.
RILEY: My heart's different than yours, Buffy. It works differently now, but it's okay.
BUFFY: But you're still a human, Riley. You could still have a heart attack.


GRAHAM: What's goin' on, man? (Riley shrugs) You gotta get this taken care of immediately. We gotta get you into an operating room.
RILEY: Very convincing. Makes me completely wanna put myself under government control.


GRAHAM: Oh, come on. You know Walsh pumped all those chemicals and crap into us. You got more than anyone. She messed us up bad.
RILEY: (scornful) And now the government's knocking themselves out to kiss it and make it better.
GRAHAM: Riley, I'm tellin' you, you need help. I'm not saying it to trick you.


BUFFY: So you messed up and now he's gone and when are you even gonna tell me what's wrong with him?
GRAHAM: I'm not permitted to say.
BUFFY: Say.
GRAHAM: (sighs) Hyperadrenal overload and a bunch of stuff that sounds even worse than that, and all it means is he's way stronger than he oughta be and feeling no pain. His heart can't take it. We've been at him for weeks about it.


BUFFY: This stops now. I'm taking you to the doctor.
RILEY: The one from the government, you mean? Like the ones who did this to me in the first place? (Puts up a hand in a "no thanks" gesture and backs away)
BUFFY: (moving toward him) He's the only one that understands what's wrong with you. He's the only one that can help.
RILEY: What's wrong with me? I'm more powerful than I've ever been, Buffy. Most people would kill to feel this way.
BUFFY: Yeah, and this feeling is going to kill you. Riley, your body was not built for this kind of strength-
RILEY: I can handle it. This is my deal, Buffy, just ... back off.


BUFFY: What's happening to you?
RILEY: I go back ... let the government get whimsical with my innards again ... They could do anything that- Best-case scenario, they turn me into Joe Normal, just... (sighs) Just another guy.
BUFFY: And that's not enough for you?
RILEY: It's not enough for you.
BUFFY: Why would you say that?
RILEY: Come on. Your last boyfriend wasn't exactly a civilian.
BUFFY: So that's what this is about? You're going to die, all over some macho pissing contest.
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
BUFFY: You wanna touch me? (walks toward him) I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.
RILEY: Not yet.
BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.
RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.
BUFFY: (angrily) Don't Psych 101 me. (Riley looks away) Not now. Not after everything that ... Nobody has ever known me the way you do. Nobody. (Riley doesn't look at her) I've opened up to you in ways that I've never opened up to ... God, you're just sitting back there thinking that none of this means anything to me.
RILEY: (still not looking at her) I never said that.
BUFFY: (teary-eyed) Because it obviously doesn't mean anything to you. Do you really think so little of me-
RILEY: Buffy.
BUFFY: No! No. Do you think that I spent the last year with you because you had super powers? If that's what I wanted, then I'd be dating Spike. (quietly) Riley, I need you. (He looks at her, looks apprehensive) I need you with me ... and I need you healthy. But if you wanna throw it all away because you don't trust me, then ... (firmly) then I'm still gonna make you go to that doctor.
Riley looks at her, looks away. He sighs.
RILEY: Take me to him.


Riley has refused to listen to both Buffy and Graham (the two people closest to him) throughout the episode, Graham even says that they've been on at Riley "for weeks" to get himself sorted, yet Riley still refuses. But as soon as Buffy starts going on about how she "needs" Riley, he suddenly changes his mind. Riley likes to feel needed, Buffy couldn't have chosen a better choice of words.

And of course Riley KNOWS that Xander is team Riley is this is one of those calculated manipulations he has going on huh? Riley's a friggin' chess-master when it comes to playing the game of relationships.
Or, alternatively, he was just being emotional and honest with another guy who was also in a relationship.

Riley has spent time with Xander. It benefits him to get on with Buffy's friends (as it does with all relationships), not least because they can give him information about Buffy that she's not willing to share (eg about her relationship with Angel). Also if he and Buffy have an argument, then it gives him someone on his side rather than everyone being against him.

Yeah, it's a big ol' man-conspiricy to make Buffy feel crappy.

Xander can do that on his own but it doesn't hurt Riley to have someone side with him.

Also bare in mind that Xander hasn't had a male friend since Jesse (who is practically forgotten about). As close as Xander is with Willow, there's just somethings that can't be shared with members of the opposite sex, plus Willow had college and Tara occupying her time.

If he hadn't though that Angel was a threat then it might've been a sign of Riley being unreasonably controlling. As it is its just him white-knighting. Again, this is something other characters do, often on Buffy's behalf.

Riley: Angel.

Angel takes a step forward glancing down at the commandos on the ground.

Angel: Welcoming committee your idea?

Riley: Way I heard it. You were all peaceable now. You didn't by any chance go and lose that pesky soul again, did you?

Angel: (dangerously) Don't push me, boy.

Riley: (calm rage) Now what possibly could've happened with Buffy that would make you lose your soul?


Riley recognises Angel then immediately assumes Angel had lost his soul via sleeping with Buffy rather than questioning what was going on. He then aggressively tries to prevent Angel from seeing Buffy. Assuming Xander filled him in on the Angelus saga and how bad that got, then he should know that Angelus wouldn't waste time with chit chat.

True, Riley's reaction could all be a result of what Xander told him (or possibly neglected to tell him) but the fact that Riley automatically assumes that Angel and Buffy slept together shows a complete lack of trust in Buffy. She has to reassure him of her fidelity despite her giving him no reason to doubt it. That's red flag behaviour.

No, Riley is pissed at Spike (and himself) but does not consider him a romantic rival. That's laughable at this stage. 'You actually think you have a chance with her?' etc

SPIKE: (in pain) Come on. You're not the long haul guy and you know it.
RILEY: Shut up.
SPIKE: You know it. Or else you wouldn't be getting suck jobs from two-bit vampire trulls.

Riley looks annoyed, lets go of Spike. Spike continues panting.

SPIKE: The girl needs some monster in her man ... and that's not in your nature... (He pushes away from the pillar, still holding his chest, and goes to sit in his chair) ...no matter how low you try to go.

Spike sits back with an expression of pain. Riley paces around restlessly. Spike reaches for his bottle and begins to remove the cork again.

RILEY: You actually think you've got a shot with her?
SPIKE: No, I don't. (removes cork) Fella's gotta try, though. Gotta do what he can.


Why is Riley asking Spike whether or not he thinks he has a shot with Buffy? Riley was about to leave when Spike started needling him and Riley then engaged in the conversation. Spike picks up on it immediately "Look at you. All afraid I'm hot for your honey."

Spike sees Riley's insecurity and plays on it, but that insecurity about Spike was clearly already there since Riley felt the need to warn Spike off from going near Buffy. This wasn't about Spike posing a danger to Buffy (he can't because of the chip), this was about Spike's feelings towards Buffy.

So is he controlling or isn't he? Is he merely in the process of controlling Buffy?

His behaviour shows shades of control. Riley probably doesn't see it as control but it is red flag aka indicative but not full on.

Is his mention of the Initiative yet another manipulation to get Buffy to 'need' him? Is the chess-master waiting by the helicopter rubbing his hands together at his own brilliant machinations?
Does he fly off to South America thinking 'bloody hell, that backfired. I've signed up to the Army again and all it was was a ruse to get Buffy to 'need' me some more'.

Riley's ultimatum is basically "Get over it now or I'm gone", also known as "Give me a reason to stay or its your fault if I leave".

Riley wasn't giving Buffy time to process what she'd discovered. She says to him "I'm not ready to talk to you YET" aka she does intend to talk to him eventually, but he just says "too bad". They're going to be having the conversation then and there whether Buffy likes it or not. He then drops the initiative bombshell because the conversation isn't going the way he wants. She calls him out on his ultimatum.

Buffy calling Riley out on his crappy behaviour was such an empowering moment which was ruined by Xander's speech about how the sun shines out of Riley's backside.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Btvs fan]

🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Spuffy Stan’s :: Ew gross Angel is such a pedo he was attracted to Buffy when he was like in the body of a 27 year old when she was 15/16 and he was like 247

Spuffy Stan’s:: Spike and Buffy are true love! Buffy totally was attracted to him all the way in season 2 even though she was like 16/17 and he was in the body of a 27 year old and he was like 145 years old. And he was attracted to her too! JM even admits it!!!

Bangels:................

Enough. The pedo argument is ridiculous and doesn’t hold up. I’ve debunked this before and I’m sick of seeing it. If you don’t like Bangel FINE. But don’t start accusing it of being the sick disease ridden relationship because you prefer your ship. Don’t drag down Bangel to prop up Spike.

Here’s an idea:: listen to what James Marsters actually has to say . He just gave a really in-depth interview on the Buffering podcast , available for free on ITunes . He gives a real insight into how he played his character, how he feels about Spike, his sexuality, his relationship with Buffy, with Joss, the writing, and everything else.

Neither relationship was the best for her. At least most Bangels can admit that Spuffy got a lot better post season 7 and we don’t make false accusations about him. I love both ship ALOT and I love both characters. It just seems that whenever just Spuffy fans are confronted with facts about Spike or Spuffy they resort to inane false arguments about Angel as a retort. I’m sorry that Angel didn’t try to rape Buffy. I’m sorry that Buffy didn’t get into a self destructive relationship with Angel. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Oh well. That’s not Angels problem. No need to turn him into a pedophile to make up for it.

I didn't use the word pedo. Angel slept with her when she was 17 and the legal age of consent here where I live is 16 so no he's not a Pedo

I listened to the Podcast on Spotify. Some of its interesting but a lot is what he has said in the past. I'm not sure how its relevant to this. Other than confirming Joss seemed obsessed with making people try and dislike Spike and that's what the AR was about. Which makes it a truly horrific bit of writing however you look at Spike or Spuffy

Buffy calling Riley out on his crappy behaviour was such an empowering moment which was ruined by Xander's speech about how the sun shines out of Riley's backside

.

[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

It wasn't so much Xanders speech that ruined things but Buffy realising it's true and running after the helicopter urgh.

On a basic level, the cheesy run after the ex love after realising they love him/her (is it me or is it always her running after him in this Hollywood trope 🤔) was really groan inducing bad back in 2000 even more so now .
On another level it made no sense with what we'd just seen the characters do. Gas lighting wasn't a term in 2000 but it was what Riley did.
Then on the final level it felt like the writer telling the audience, you're gonna miss Riley when he's gone and how great he is.
Even back in 2000 many felt that Xanders speech was not Xander but the writers using him to talk to the audience about Riley.

 

[nightshade]

Let's keep personal attacks out of the discussion.

 

[Bluebird]

In reference to those saying if you don't like Spike don't post in the Spike forum - the Spike forum isn't a fan club, it is for all discussion of Spike, whether criticism, praise, or indifference. Some people might not know this. Don't feel intimidated about posting in any forum.

 

[katmobile]

In reference to those saying if you don't like Spike don't post in the Spike forum - the Spike forum isn't a fan club, it is for all discussion of Spike, whether criticism, praise, or indifference. Some people might not know this. Don't feel intimidated about posting in any forum.

I'd say this is true of both sides.

 

[FaithLehane16]

I think Willow and Oz were the most realistic relationship of the show.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Lol A 27/28 yr old Setting eyes on a girl at 15/kissing her when she's 16 and having sex with her when she's 17 does have a real world comparison, its called grooming. It's only because the actress was older than the character is it not called out more.

When I was 17, I was dating a 32 year old guy...and my parents were okay with it. Not every young girl/older guy relationship is sordid or wrong. It happens a lot more than people realise, and it's not a big deal.

I wish we could live and let live too but I'm not gonna accept someone else's truth. Prob best if you want to stay out of it don't declare a preference and stay off some threads.

Uh, no. Are you actually suggesting that someone stay quiet and avoid certain threads? It doesn't work that way, babe. And I can't believe you said that. Every thread is open to every member here. To suggest otherwise is just plain wrong. And annoying as hell.

People ARE aware that Spike, Buffy, and Angel are fictional characters, right? And they're not real, right? Just checking.

 

[Taake]

I'm reiterating what Nightshade already warned in this thread,

Let's keep personal attacks out of the discussion.

and adding that no, no one has the right to tell another member what threads they should or should not post in. If you find a post problematic, please report it to staff and we can look at it. But criticism of characters or ships, from shippers or non shippers alike, is allowed. Only in the fan club forums do we ask that you keep it ship positive, but this does not mean that only shippers can post there. This topic tends to be passionate and causes some friction, but please don't be so quick to assume the worst intent in other posters.

We can also all do better in not collectivizing different fan groups, there are plenty of shippers who straddle both sides of the fences, it's not all about hardcore shipping. Now, as this thread carries on remember especially not to make posts so personal, this forum is supposed to be for entertainment, let's remember that even as we discuss ships and the flaws we see in them.

Carry on and let's get back to the topic, i.e. whether or not you found Spuffy to be the most realistic relationship of the show.

 

[Octavia]

Hehehe straddle shippers.

this forum is supposed to be for entertainment,

That's what I am here for But sometimes its more entertaining doing the entertaining than reading the entertaining. And some days I just forget where I am.

 

[FaithLehane16]

When I was 17, I was dating a 32 year old guy...and my parents were okay with it. Not every young girl/older guy relationship is sordid or wrong. It happens a lot more than people realise, and it's not a big deal.

I am almost 25 years old, and I am dating a 48 year old man.

 

[sosa lola]

I'd say that all relationships on the show are realistic in a way. IMO I feel that Xander/Anya is the most realistic in terms of two people who clearly love each other so much but don't really love everything about each other. They get uncomfortable about some aspects in the other: Xander isn't comfortable with Anya's innocent/silly outbursts that gets him looks from his friends. Anya isn't comfortable with Xander's closeness with Buffy and Willow. Xander tries to ignore Anya's past. Anya tries to ignore how Xander's abusive homelife had affected him negatively.

Yet they both enjoy each other's company, love and protect each other, and put the other first. It just sounds like a lot of the relationships I witness in RL, my own marriage included.