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Strongest Vampires

burrunjor

Potential
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
337
Age
29
Who do you think were the strongest Vamps in all of Buffy and Angel.

I'm going to say

1/ The Master

By far and away the most physically powerful, the Master is stronger than the Slayer at full strenth like when he curb stomps Buffy in The Wish. This puts him ahead of most Vampires and lower level Demons. He also easily overpowered Angel every time they fought, (he made him a pet for his lowest lackeys) Darla trembled in fear at angering him in Welcome to the Hellmouth, and he was also a skilled sorceror too. He could open the hellmouth and control the Old Ones who came out. That was pretty bad. ass With all of his resources he could probably beat most villains in the series.

2/ Kakistos

Another Vampire so old he had grown past human features. Kakistos was far stronger than the Slayer. He kicked Buffy's ass in a straight fight, and was only beaten because Faith struck him from behind. Even then she needed a gigantic beam of wood to get him. He's clearly not as powerful as the Master as he doesn't have the same magical powers he had, but still he was badass.

3/ The Prince of Lies

We didn't see him much in action, but he was another one that was so old he had grown past human features. He didn't react at all when getting shot (unlike Angel who was thrown when Darla blasted him, or Spike who would scream in pain.) He also smacked Angel across the room with one hand. Angel did dispatch him easily though, but that was only because he struck him from behind when he wasn't looking. In a fair fight, he would have bitch slapped Angel.

4/ Russell Winters

He was so old his Vampire face had become more mutated and he was far, far stronger than Angel and beat him in a fair fight. The fact that Wolfram and Hart were interested in him as well shows that he must have had some influence too.

5/ Luke

The Master's right hand man, he was clearly stronger than Darla and the Slayer too. He overpowered Buffy twice, and Buffy was only able to beat him through trickery. His Vampire face wasn't quite as monstrous as Russell so I reckon he wasn't quite as old.

6/ Lothos

Counting the Origin version, this guy has killed dozens of Slayers and seems to be stronger than them, which puts him above most Vamps and Demons. He also is a highly skilled fighter too being able to take down so many Slayers easily.

7/ Angel

Not the oldest and we know for a fact the Slayer is stronger than him (which puts the Slayer well above most Vampires, as most Vamps don't get to live this long, and most Demons who Angel is shown to be stronger than.)

His years of trainng and fighting mean that he can take down, or at least hold his own with some of the most powerful monsters in the series. Most Vampires, even older ones than Angel probably just spend their time killing helpless humans, but because Angel tangles with Demons then he is one of the best fighters. (Though he is still no match for the Master.)

8/ Spike

Again much like Angel he has spent time, even before his heel face turn fighting with people who can actually harm him, like Slayers, so his fighting skills, coupled with his masochisticn tendencies mean he is a formidable fighter among Vampires and can probably take down even older and stronger Vamps.

I'd rate him just a bit lower than Angel as Angel has won most of their fights. He did beat the shit out of Angel in Destiny, but Angel was going through a bit of a crisis at that point. In the Angel season 5, penultimate episode, he curb stomped Spike.

I reckon they both have a tendency to give into fear when fighting opponents they believe to be stronger. It's not that they are scared per se, just that they think they are going to lose. In Spike's case he doesn't when fighting Slayers, due to his perverse attraction to them so he has a better track record against them. Angel meanwhile is more scared of them, so he tends to lose against Slayers more often. On the other hand ironically when fighting higher beings and all powerful Demons, Angel has a better track record, probably because he doesn't fear them at all (having lived so long in a hell dimension.) Angel for instance would have slaughtered those smug Biker Demons in season 6 in like 5 seconds, where as Spike was a bit more cautious around them.

Similarly when fighting each other, depending on who's more confident, one can thrash the other, but overall I'd say Angel's got a slight edge as he is a bit older, has the experience in a hell dimension and is a bit bigger.

9/ Penn

He is younger than Drusilla, but he seemed a lot faster and held his own against Angel in one fight, and beat him in another (though most of the time he tended to flee from Angel, and he used Kate as a shield because he knew he couldn't beat him fair and square.)

10/ Drusilla

She doesn't seem as strong as Angel and Spike, probably because again she mostly went after humans. Still she is a good fighter who can hold her own with Spike, she comes from a good bloodline, and her craziness and hypnotic powers give her an edge. (Killing a Slayer in a quicker time than even Spike or the Master was bad ass. I'm amazed Dru never boasted about it, or it never was mentioned as a bigger deal in later stories regarding how dangerous Dru was?)

11/ Darla

She is a skilled fighter, and her bloodline and age give her an edge, but again unlike Angel or Spike she mostly preyed on harmless humans so she never honed her fighting skills quite as much. She preferred seduction and mind games on people. When she fought the slayer she was quite pathetic.

12/ Sam Lawson

His age and bloodline probably give him more of an edge than most, but he barely held his own against Angel who destroyed him with casual ease.

13/ Mr Trick

We don't know how old he was, but he seemed to be stronger than the usual Vampire Buffy slays as he pushed them around. However he was unable to take a Slayer on his own.

14/ Harmony

Quite weak at first, but she lasted so much longer than the majority of other Vampires, and was a decent enough fighter to kill that other Vampire in Wolfram and Hart, and even hold her own with Spike.

Honorary mention to the Uber Vampire from S7 that tortured Spike and beat Buffy to a pulp. He was really badass. Probably the strongest, but he is a different type of Vampire.
 
Last edited:

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,260
Location
Manchester
Who do you think were the strongest Vamps in all of Buffy and Angel.
Depends how you define strongest and vamps.
they are a different species of Vampire
I'm not so sure about this. We only have Giles word on it. Lessons deliberately draws attention to his reliance on typology/classification (he identifies the plant and says it doesn't belong) and his need for boundaries (he's patrolling a fence). Apes are a different species - it doesn't mean they're not humans' closest relatives. You can draw the line between groups in different ways - it doesn't have to be legitimated by science (Giles says he's served by botany). TBH, I think this is the subtext of S6/7.

Personally, I'd put a single uber-vamp at the top. It's pure instinct. It's only want is food/survival. It doesn't fear death and it has no understanding of, isn't effected by, the power of cultural icons (crucifixes/holy water). It has no language as such - only rudimentary communication. Seems not to - or can't - plan, hence no plan to go wrong. It's not driven - it's drive itself. IMO, the reason they are less effective as a group is there's no motivation to act as a group...no complex language, no shared narrative (it's probably the basis of the Caveman/Astronaut argument. There's real world precedence for it in some of the discussions about Neanderthals and Homosapiens). Buffy defeats it because she literally shares a narrative with Willow and Xander (just as she shares her power with the potentials). There's power in narrative. Angel and Spike fight each other because they have a history. They fight together for the same reason.

There's a possible future in S12 where Harmony survives. Harmony has the potential to last longer because no-one recognises her as a threat. No one has a strong emotional investment in her. No-one cares enough to love her, no-one cares enough to kill her. In the comics, she creates narrative and knows the power of the media. She's a storyteller - as is Andrew - and so the antithesis of the Uber-vamp. I don't think it's coincidence that Harmony and Andrew - both ineffectual people - are in positions of power at the end of S12.

So - a Turok-Han first; Harmony second. After that I'm happy to go along with your list. :)
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
1,682
Age
39
Per the Buffyverse Wiki, the Turok Han trace their ancestry to the Old One Maloker, the Father of All Vampires, and the last Old One to walk the Earth prior to his destruction with +Mu Axe by the First Slayer. So the Turok Han are vampires, just an archaic line bred to be vicious Orc Foot Soldiers, rather than the Ambush predators who survive by stealth and cunning that are modern Urban vampires, with probably some intermediate phase of Tribal Vampires who were more like lions or wolves, rather than leopards or pythons. Species for the Undead, would denote a common ancestor, or a common ritual or spell of creation, which all Vampires share. Breed is probably the most appropriate term with Vampires, as Vampires cannot mate with each other, or anything else for that matter. How much Natural Selection plays with Vampires is unknown, while I like the idea of Vampires who have the ability to mask being more successful than Vampires who cannot, or that the Master's way was more successful than other ways of life for vampires, it could just be the dilution of ancient demonic blood making them look less demonic.
 

burrunjor

Potential
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
337
Age
29
Depends how you define strongest and vamps.


I'm not so sure about this. We only have Giles word on it. Lessons deliberately draws attention to his reliance on typology/classification (he identifies the plant and says it doesn't belong) and his need for boundaries (he's patrolling a fence). Apes are a different species - it doesn't mean they're not humans' closest relatives. You can draw the line between groups in different ways - it doesn't have to be legitimated by science (Giles says he's served by botany). TBH, I think this is the subtext of S6/7.

Personally, I'd put a single uber-vamp at the top. It's pure instinct. It's only want is food/survival. It doesn't fear death and it has no understanding of, isn't effected by, the power of cultural icons (crucifixes/holy water). It has no language as such - only rudimentary communication. Seems not to - or can't - plan, hence no plan to go wrong. It's not driven - it's drive itself. IMO, the reason they are less effective as a group is there's no motivation to act as a group...no complex language, no shared narrative (it's probably the basis of the Caveman/Astronaut argument. There's real world precedence for it in some of the discussions about Neanderthals and Homosapiens). Buffy defeats it because she literally shares a narrative with Willow and Xander (just as she shares her power with the potentials). There's power in narrative. Angel and Spike fight each other because they have a history. They fight together for the same reason.

There's a possible future in S12 where Harmony survives. Harmony has the potential to last longer because no-one recognises her as a threat. No one has a strong emotional investment in her. No-one cares enough to love her, no-one cares enough to kill her. In the comics, she creates narrative and knows the power of the media. She's a storyteller - as is Andrew - and so the antithesis of the Uber-vamp. I don't think it's coincidence that Harmony and Andrew - both ineffectual people - are in positions of power at the end of S12.

So - a Turok-Han first; Harmony second. After that I'm happy to go along with your list. :)
Well if you were to include the Ubervamps then that first Turok Han would be way above the Master. The Master seemed just a bit stronger than the Slayer at full strength in The Wish, but that first Turok Han absolutely beat the shit out of Buffy. He is probably one of the top 5 strongest bad guys in the series. I don't know how he would compare to Adam or Caleb.

I always loved the Turok Han personally. The idea of a second race of Vampire who are more ferocious is a brilliant one. Blade 2 did it a bit earlier with the Reapers (who look remarkably like the Turok Han) However the idea actually has it's roots in mythology. There were the Nelapsi who are said to be a second race of Vampires that even Vampires fear and are far more powerful than even the Reapers or the Turok Han. Glory would probably struggle against a Nelapsi.
 
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