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Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
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Sineya
If Season 6 is drugs and sex are bad, What is your takeaway from s7?
 
Leo
Leo
Wait, sex is bad?

Btvs fan

Scooby
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My tale away message. That having Buffy do a speech about giving a choice then doing a montage of a bunch of girls who didn't get a choice, was Joss having a laugh.

That and you can have multiple ex machinas/bad decisions and continuity errors but as long as Joss does it, the fans will will accept it 🤷‍♂️
 

katmobile

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The message is that whatever people think power the greatest power is sharing and inspiration and forgiveness to not just be your best self but to encourage, help and others to be too.

In short empowering others the mcguffuns are just tools it's the forgiveness of those who wielded them that counted. That's why I love season seven and why I forgive its flaws and I pity anyone who doesn't. Peace out.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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It was supposed to be about the joy of sharing power with other women. Granted, that took like three to five episodes. Then, it was about Spike's quest to come to terms with his guilt over what he did while soulless. Then it was about possible scenarios for a sequel series. Then it was about keeping Nathan Fillion employed for a month. Then, it was about Lesbian Fanservice, (really sorry about Tara) Then it was about Step 1 and Step 2 of the First's four part plan. Then it was about wrapping up stories and plots and Buffy's victory run. Then it was about Willow's Senior Year of college. Then it was about the mystery of the Cheeseman. And finally, developing the character of the Potential Slayers not named Kennedy.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
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It was supposed to be about the joy of sharing power with other women. Granted, that took like three to five episodes. Then, it was about Spike's quest to come to terms with his guilt over what he did while soulless. Then it was about possible scenarios for a sequel series. Then it was about keeping Nathan Fillion employed for a month. Then, it was about Lesbian Fanservice, (really sorry about Tara) Then it was about Step 1 and Step 2 of the First's four part plan. Then it was about wrapping up stories and plots and Buffy's victory run. Then it was about Willow's Senior Year of college. Then it was about the mystery of the Cheeseman. And finally, developing the character of the Potential Slayers not named Kennedy.
Besides Jane Espenson (who wanted a Slayer school spin off) did anyone want the Potentials on screen ?

It also seemed to be about saving the budget for the finale. For many episodes the only set seemed to be Buffys house and that was it.
 

katmobile

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Besides Jane Espenson (who wanted a Slayer school spin off) did anyone want the Potentials on screen ?

It also seemed to be about saving the budget for the finale. For many episodes the only set seemed to be Buffys house and that was it.
Say what you like about them they did prove to be part of the solution in the end and they're also pawns/damsels and represent Buffy's legacy. Also a slayer school might not have sucked just don't have Rona in it or Kennedy. I think Jane has written enough good stuff on Buffy I'd have trusted her to make it interesting.

Look I get people's beef with the potentials that they take screen time away from the Xander and Dawn (I guess it helps me that I'm not that invested in either of them) but aren't given enough screen time to be interesting that at least one of them is really annoying (Your Mileage May Vary as to who it is - but ultimately I'd go with three of them although Molly's accent coach inepitness combined with actually living in the city that she's supposed to be from is to blame for more than her character such as it is), Choa Ann is an insulting streotype and comedy mule and Joss being Joss kills off the only one that actually has a sympathetic chracter apart from Vi who mainly glides on being played by Felicia Day. However I think they are a part of the story and I liked the way that Chloe's suicide sort of showed the stakes and challenges of the season.

I do think that Anya needed more character development after Selfless though and especially in the later half of the season she needed a bit more nuance than obssessing over Xander, bitching about Buffy and forming a comedy double act with Andrew.

It's possible that budget concerns were a problem but also it's not what the script demanded it's hard to know how you'd get some interesting locations in there.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Choa Ann is an insulting streotype and comedy mule
I quite liked Chao-ahn. She is probably my favourite potential, the scenes of Giles trying to communicate with her and failing were quite funny. I kind of wish she had a scene with Spike where she tries to say something to him and he replies "sorry, love, I don't speak Chinese" (but in a nice way) echoing his final words to the Chinese Slayer during the boxer rebellion.

I think they could've done more with Chao-ahn, perhaps the Bringer could've spoken through her. That would be quite creepy where she suddenly starts speaking perfect English or maybe we could have a nice little scene where Dawn is trying to teach her some English words so she can communicate with the rest of the group.

I liked the way that Chloe's suicide sort of showed the stakes and challenges of the season.
I don't think we saw enough of Chloe for her death to have an impact too much. What really bothered me though is that Kennedy helped contribute to her suicide by publicly humiliating Chloe (I think the First was telling he truth in that scene because the truth is more "fun" than a pack of lies), yet nobody seems to acknowledge this. Kennedy doesn't seem to feel any ounce of remorse about her actions, she was gleeful about them during the training session, and nobody even calls out Kennedy on her actions.

Kennedy is a horrible brat and what make is even worse is that she knows she's a brat yet does nothing to try and change her behaviour.
 

MrsDupas

Townie
Joined
Apr 7, 2019
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38
I do think that Anya needed more character development after Selfless though and especially in the later half of the season she needed a bit more nuance than obssessing over Xander, bitching about Buffy and forming a comedy double act with Andrew.
Totally agree, they could have used less screen time for the potentials and more time for Anya's and Xander's development (not as a couple again, but individually).
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
Joined
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Messages
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Prepare yourself for a long post if you have the patience for reading it:

I love S7 but I think that you cannot judge S7 independently from S6. In S6, all characters hit rock-bottom:
  • Buffy’s depression.
  • Tara’s death.
  • Willow as the Big Bad (killing somebody).
  • Xander’s and Anya’s wedding fiasco.
  • Anya becoming a vengeance demon again.
  • Spike and Buffy’s abusive relationship.
  • The AR scene.
  • Dawn dragged down with all of them.
  • Giles leaving for England.
I won’t make it a secret that I love this season because it allows us to explore Spuffy in a healthier way. But I think that S7 is more complex than sometimes stated and it’s underrated.

I think that S7 shows all characters growing up and taking responsibility for their actions in S6. To me, this season shows the power of redemption and the challenges of reaching adulthood. Those are not easy paths and, more often than not, you want to give up. However, when you are an adult, giving up is not an option, you have to keep pushing through.

Some people joke that the First Evil super power is talking people to death. But there’s a lot of truth in that statement. The First Evil messes up with people by exploiting their biggest insecurities. Almost all characters have to face this and have to find a way of escaping those negative thoughts: Willow with Tara, Buffy with Caleb (after she kills him – and maybe also with Holden, him being a byproduct of the First Evil), Spike with Dru/Buffy/his mother, Robin with his mother, Andrew with Jonathan, the potentials with their fears, Faith with the Mayor, Dawn with Joyce. And Xander being tortured physically, instead of emotionally, by losing his eye.

In this season, the Scoobies have also reached an age where they cannot longer run and hide, figuratively speaking. Buffy is a school counselor, Xander is a construction manager, Willow is back in school, Faith is no longer the egotistical slayer and has accepted her responsibility, Robin (new in S7) is the principal, Anya realizes that she needs to find herself, Dawn is in high school and is more stable, Spike has a soul (as Joss stated: “with a soul comes a more adult understanding”). All of them have grown-up responsibilities that cannot be avoided because they are no longer kids.

Now isolation has always been a huge topic in BtVS and Buffy has always been the guiltiest of them all, also figuratively speaking. This season is no different but there’s a twist, Spike suddenly becomes her support. She realizes that he’s capable of change and finally trusts him, she doesn’t feel completely alone. But then we get a second twist. Buffy suddenly is also responsible for a group of fearful potentials and her duty is to protect them and to train them as they face the biggest challenge of the entire show. This time the Big Bad can get under the skin of anyone whenever it wants. Understandably, Buffy is scared and attempts to detach herself even more than usual (a running critique of her character in this season).

And at the end, it comes the epiphany. Buffy cannot longer fight alone (as the only slayer), she has to share the power/gift/burden – up to you how to see it. And by doing so, she grows up more. She’s no longer the only hot girl with superpower (besides Faith), she’s no longer unique in that sense but that is liberating too, she can finally let go of “her superiority and inferiority complexes.” And I think that it takes a lot of courage. Of course, it also comes with the “minor” advantage that the weight of the world is no longer only on her shoulders.

Ok, this is a long post. But summarizing MY take away from S7: learning to take responsibility for your actions, seeking forgiveness/redemption by following a bumpy and painful road (even when it feels impossible), becoming an adult, and learning to share the burden (no more isolation – or as some of you appropriately called it, “empowering” others).

And my last take away is the more adult relationship between Buffy and Spike, who forgive each other for their mutual transgressions and move on together, plus they are super sweet and loving in this season. (And this is only for me: too bad that Joss is a b*stard that played with my feelings and decided to kill Spike 😢).

For me, this is my cheer me up season:D (except for the very last part of Chosen with Spike dying, grrr).
 
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Annie Hall
Annie Hall

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
Joined
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Sineya
And at the end, it comes the epiphany. Buffy cannot longer fight alone (as the only slayer), she has to share the power/gift/burden – up to you how to see it. And by doing it, she grows up more. She’s no longer the only hot girl with superpower (besides Faith), she’s no longer unique in that sense but that is liberating too, she can finally let go of “her superiority and inferiority complexes.” And I think that it takes a lot of courage. Of course, it also comes with the “minor” advantage that the weight of the world is no longer only on her shoulders.
This is what I take from it too. S5 the Slayer died, S7, the Slayer realises the world is too big to protect on her own and calls for support. Those who seek strength accept the gift, (and its challenges) knowing they are linked by a power that feeds on their choice of connection.

or me, this is my cheer me up season:D
Me too, It feels more like a lighter comic type format and I find it leaves me happier than other seasons. I cheer for Chosen. Where as I don't really like graduation day part 1 and 2 much.
 
K
katmobile
Apart from not liking Grad Day I agree with this.

Btvs fan

Scooby
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I quite liked Chao-ahn. She is probably my favourite potential, the scenes of Giles trying to communicate with her and failing were quite funny. I kind of wish she had a scene with Spike where she tries to say something to him and he replies "sorry, love, I don't speak Chinese" (but in a nice way) echoing his final words to the Chinese Slayer during the boxer rebellion.

I think they could've done more with Chao-ahn, perhaps the Bringer could've spoken through her. That would be quite creepy where she suddenly starts speaking perfect English or maybe we could have a nice little scene where Dawn is trying to teach her some English words so she can communicate with the rest of the group.



I don't think we saw enough of Chloe for her death to have an impact too much. What really bothered me though is that Kennedy helped contribute to her suicide by publicly humiliating Chloe (I think the First was telling he truth in that scene because the truth is more "fun" than a pack of lies), yet nobody seems to acknowledge this. Kennedy doesn't seem to feel any ounce of remorse about her actions, she was gleeful about them during the training session, and nobody even calls out Kennedy on her actions.

Kennedy is a horrible brat and what make is even worse is that she knows she's a brat yet does nothing to try and change her behaviour.
Kennedy wasn't the worst thing. Buffys speech about a suicide victim was 😡
It's terrible writing maybe unintentional but it still is. I thought that in 2003 and I feel it now on Rewatch in 2019
 

katmobile

Scooby
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Kennedy wasn't the worst thing. Buffys speech about a suicide victim was 😡
It's terrible writing maybe unintentional but it still is. I thought that in 2003 and I feel it now on Rewatch in 2019
I think it's showing Buffy's frustration but it would have worked had Dawn confronted her and Buffy confessed I can't let them think they can give in.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Kennedy wasn't the worst thing. Buffys speech about a suicide victim was 😡
It's terrible writing maybe unintentional but it still is. I thought that in 2003 and I feel it now on Rewatch in 2019
Buffy's speech, whilst harsh for sure, is also understandable. She is facing a battle like no other, the odds are continuously increasing to stack against her, she's been dumped with the responsibility of training up the potentials to fight but they don't particularly want to learn, she is seeing people die and can't do anything about it, etc. Buffy can't afford to carry passengers yet the potentials aren't doing anything to help themselves.

I find Kennedy's behaviour worse because it is what she did contributed to Chloe's suicide. Buffy might be bitchng about Chloe killing herself, but it is Kennedy who helped cause the situation in the first place. All Chloe did was turn left instead of right, an easy mistake to make, anyone could make it. Yet instead of redoing the exercise, Kennedy decides to publicly humiliate Chloe in front of the other potentials by calling her "maggot" and making her do 20 push ups. She then gloats about it to Wood. When the First can practically say "you helped cause this" WITHOUT lying, there's a problem that needs to be addressed there because if Kennedy can do that to Chloe, what's to stop her doing it to another potential.

I think Kennedy was using Willow as a powerplay. She's constantly trying to insert her opinion but notice how once she and Willow are "dating", Kennedy suddenly involves herself in scooby meetings. Tara, Anya, and even Spike had to earn their way into the scoobies, yet Kennedy seems to think she deserves instant access just because she's sleeping with Willow. Willow clearly hadn't gotten over Tara (screaming up at the heavens and begging forgiveness for kissing another person doesn't shout "moved on") yet Kennedy aggressively pursues her until she gives in. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy berates Willow for sticking up for Buffy (or looking like she's about to). Willow and Buffy have been best friends for 7 years and have been through a lot together in that time, what makes Kennedy think Willow should be siding with her over Buffy other than a sense of entitlement?

Had Kennedy expressed some remorse over Chloe's death (even if another character reassured her that she was not to blame) then it would've made her more bearable, likewise if it was shown that the bratty persona was a front she put up to hide how scared she really was. However we get none of that. Instead, we have an entitled brat acknowledging she's a brat yet doing absolutely nothing to change her behaviour. That's worse than if she wasn't aware she was a brat because it means Kennedy knows her behaviour is self centered and unpleasant yet she doesn't give a damn about other people to change it. She hates Buffy because she won't let her have a say, and she's brown nosing Faith and openly admits that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge, which means that the mutiny was a powerplay by Kennedy to get more power within the group. Buffy was kicked out her own house and put in a vulnerable position (on her own in a town crawling with Bringers and Turok Han) all so Kennedy could get what she wanted. I don't particularly like Faith but her telling Kennedy to back off was long overdue and should've been said before then. Amy wins point for sending Kennedy hurtling across the room.

Kennedy is easily one of the worst things about Season 7 but there were ways to make her more palatable to the audience which the writers ignored. Basically all that's wrong with Kennedy can be summed up into words "Killow" and "personality".
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I like many of the potentials.

Kennedy is an absolute bad-ass that can also be very sensitive, supportive and charming. She's a bit rough around the edges, but she is a teenager trying to deal with an overwhelming situation. I assume she is someone who feels comfortable being in control, which is why she seeks a place of authority. She does not like having other people be responsible for her safety.

Amanda is my spirit animal. She's so amazing. I can't believe she dies. I love her anger. She has this great unhinged quality to her.

Chao-An is great absurdist comedy. I wish they had done an episode from her point of view, like "The Zeppo" or "Storyteller." I don't think the depiction of her is in bad taste. She's not the butt of the joke.

Vi is very cute and Felicia Day is probably among the purest souls that walk this earth. I love it when she shouts at Rhona? to live while the bus drives away from the Sunny-crater.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Kennedy is an absolute bad-ass that can also be very sensitive, supportive and charming.
Chloe begs to differ, as does Buffy.

She's a bit rough around the edges,
Saying Kennedy is "a bit rough around the edges" is like saying a shark's teeth are only a little bit pointy.

but she is a teenager trying to deal with an overwhelming situation.
Except at no point was that shown, there was no quiet moment where Kennedy admitted she was scared or the like. Instead we have an entitled brat swanning in, looking down her nose at Buffy, and throwing her weight around. She skives off going to the desert with the other potentials because she thinks she knows all there is to know.

I assume she is someone who feels comfortable being in control, which is why she seeks a place of authority. She does not like having other people be responsible for her safety.
She likes to insert her opinion. She's put in charge of one training session and the power immediately goes to her head. What the hell makes her think she has the right to talk to Chloe like that? There was absolutely no respect there whatsoever.

Chao-An is great absurdist comedy. I wish they had done an episode from her point of view, like "The Zeppo" or "Storyteller." I don't think the depiction of her is in bad taste. She's not the butt of the joke.
Agreed. Chao-ahn is a very underrated character, I would've like to see more of her.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
What the hell makes her think she has the right to talk to Chloe like that? There was absolutely no respect there whatsoever.
I'm in the military, so trust me, I hate drill sergeants, but Kennedy cannot be blamed for Chloe's suicide. What if somebody blamed Kennedy for Chloe's suicide and Kennedy then killed herself? Would they be responsible for Kennedy's death.

From Kennedy's perspective, she was merely playing the role of the drill sergeant. She did not realise the effect she had. We never know how we affect other people. Kennedy thought she was doing a good thing whipping them into shape. That doesn't make her a murderer. If it did, there would be many murderers each time someone killed themselves.

Try looking at things from Kennedy's perspective and see all the good she does.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Kennedy cannot be blamed for Chloe's suicide.
Not solely but she played a part in it (however unintentional that may be).

What if somebody blamed Kennedy for Chloe's suicide and Kennedy then killed herself? Would they be responsible for Kennedy's death.
First, it would mean that Kennedy actually acknowledges the part she played in Chloe's suicide if someone blames her for it and she takes it to heart.

Secondly, it would show Kennedy feels remorseful for what she did.

Thirdly, no they would not be responsible provided they didn't make a public spectacle about it in front of all Kennedy's peers or call her derogatory names.

Fourthly, it's a crappy excuse to use to not confront Kennedy over her behaviour when it is her behaviour that is contributing to the death of others.

From Kennedy's perspective, she was merely playing the role of the drill sergeant. She did not realise the effect she had. We never know how we affect other people. Kennedy thought she was doing a good thing whipping them into shape.
Kennedy seems to think she's above the other potentials and she's not. The whole "drill sergeant" routine is her feeding her ego. As I said, she skives off going to the desert with the other potentials. By thinking she's above the other potentials, it means she thinks the other potentials are beneath her.

Chloe confused her left with her right, that's all. She was still doing the moves, she just made a single directional mistake. At worst, it should've been a case of redoing the whole combo again of the "left punch, right punch, forward kick, cartwheel, etc" (can't remember the exact line). She has no right to publicly humiliate Chloe by calling her "maggot" and making her do push ups. Kennedy is NOT a drill sergeant so she shouldn't be trying act like one. It's the gleefulness in which she boasts about it to Wood which really bugs me.

That doesn't make her a murderer. If it did, there would be many murderers each time someone killed themselves.
Kennedy is a contributing factor to Chloe's suicide, not the sole cause. I'm not saying Kennedy should be branded a "murderer", but it would've been nice for her to acknowledge her horrible behaviour towards Chloe and feel remorseful over it (and yes, even blame herself) before another character comes along and reassures her that she shouldn't blame herself.

As it stands, we have the first saying "you helped cause this" WITHOUT lying, and Kennedy does not give a crap. She just carries on like nothing happened.

Try looking at things from Kennedy's perspective and see all the good she does.
What I see is Kennedy being manipulative and using Willow as a powerplay to get in with the scoobies before using the mutiny as another powerplay to instil Faith as leader because she thinks she'll get a bigger say with Faith in charge.

At best, you could say Kennedy is very Machiavellian with an "ends justify the means" outlook, even if it does screw over other people. Her scenes in Chosen (being Willow's "anchor" which should've been Xander's role given their friendship, and taking the scythe to Buffy) are basically just her avoiding the majority of the fight. She practically came in at the end of it right before Spike finished the job. She wasn't there from the start. and so avoided the vast majority of the bloodshed.
 
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