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WillowFromBuffy

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Her scenes in Chosen (being Willow's "anchor" which should've been Xander's role given her friendship, and taking the scythe to Buffy) are basically just her avoiding the majority of the fight. She practically came in at the end of it right before Spike finished the job. She wasn't there from the start. and so avoided the vast majority of the bloodshed
Whenever the potentials have been in danger before, Kennedy has always been the first (and only) to jump into the fray to protect her sisters. She seeks responsibility, because she is self-sufficient. She believes in her own abilities.

And Kennedy clearly cares about Willow. She isn't just a means to an end. She helps Willow when she is clearly in over her head in "Killer" and does her best to support Willow's confidence throughout the season.

I think the reason Willow gave for breaking up with Kennedy was insincere. Kennedy never seems as though she only cares for magical super-Willow, and neither did Tara, but Willow projected her insecurities onto her too. Kennedy is pretty darn loyal, both on the show and beyond.
 

DeadlyDuo

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She seeks responsibility, because she is self-sufficient.
She wants to boss people about because she thinks she's above them.

She believes in her own abilities.
She thinks she knows more than she does and skives off certain training exercises.

And Kennedy clearly cares about Willow.
Not about Willow's opinions unless she agrees with her. When Willow sided with Buffy (or looked like she was about to), Kennedy jumped down her throat. Kennedy likes the status that comes from being Willow's girlfriend. Think how long it took for Tara to officially join the scoobies even though she was dating Willow, Kennedy was in there like a shot and trying to insert her opinions.

She isn't just a means to an end. She helps Willow when she is clearly in over her head in "Killer" and does her best to support Willow's confidence throughout the season.
I find the end of TKIM to be a bit of a let down. Kennedy's kiss causes the problem yet it also solves the problem? Willow is screaming at the heavens and begging for forgiveness because she kissed Kennedy and momentarily let Tara go, so how is another kiss supposed to change that?

The writers were trying to push Killlow (and it shows) because they wanted at least one of the scoobies to still be in a relationship by the end of the season (and they got a lot of backlash over Tara's death as a "kill your gays" trope) yet if they wanted Willow to still be in a lesbian relationship at the end of the series, why bother killing Tara off in the first place?

They could've done Dawk Willow even if Tara lived. Have Tara taken to hospital, she flatlines, Willow is removed from the room whilst the doctors try and resuscitate her, Willow takes off unable to face the prospect of losing Tara and goes on her rampage of revenge whilst the audience still don't know if Tara survives, then have Xander talk Willow down and reveal Tara is still alive as Willow breaks down.

I think the reason Willow gave for breaking up with Kennedy was insincere. Kennedy never seems as though she only cares for magical super-Willow, and neither did Tara, but Willow projected her insecurities onto her too. Kennedy is pretty darn loyal, both on the show and beyond.
The comic writers knew how much the fans hated Kennedy and finally rectified the Killow situation.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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I find the end of TKIM to be a bit of a let down. Kennedy's kiss causes the problem yet it also solves the problem? Willow is screaming at the heavens and begging for forgiveness because she kissed Kennedy and momentarily let Tara go, so how is another kiss supposed to change that?
Forgiveness can't come from heaven, because Tara is dead. The spell Amy cast is powered by Willow's belief. Kennedy needs to convince Willow that she did not betray Tara by daring to love again. If Willow had shot Kennedy, it would have cemented her belief that she was a murderer and she would have turned into Warren permanently. By accepting Kennedy's offer of love, she found her way back to herself.

I was sad to see Tara go, but in return for her death, we got to see Willow fall and then slowly get back on her feet. I don't know if it was worth it losing Tara, but I still find Willow's journey in S7 beautiful.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Forgiveness can't come from heaven, because Tara is dead. The spell Amy cast is powered by Willow's belief. Kennedy needs to convince Willow that she did not betray Tara by daring to love again. If Willow had shot Kennedy, it would have cemented her belief that she was a murderer and she would have turned into Warren permanently. By accepting Kennedy's offer of love, she found her way back to herself.
If Willow was feeling that extreme about it in that moment, then Kennedy kissing her again would not help matters but would only make them worse. If Buffy sleeping with Spike made her hate herself, then sleeping with him again soon after isn't going to change that and would only make her feel even more hate towards herself because she would've done it again. It's the same principle.

Willow has to learn to move on from Tara, TKIM clearly showed she wasn't ready to let go (hence the shouting up to the heavens) Kennedy's kiss shouldn't make things magically better, especially when it started the problem in the first place. Kennedy had to trick Willow into a date, otherwise Willow would've said no.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Maybe Willow just needed to say those things out loud. After S6, the focus falls entirely on Willow's crimes. Willow has to bear that shame publicly, but she is also left to mourn Tara privately. Xander takes Willow to the gravestone in that beautiful scene, but we don't get to see Willow talk to anyone about losing Tara, while she talks a lot about all the bad things she did.

Kennedy got to see Willow's trauma manifested through her transformation into Warren and she empathised and told Willow she had nothing to be ashamed of. Willow now knows that she has found a new person who accepts her completely.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But it would still take time for Willow to adjust and come to terms with moving on. At the moment, the scene goes like this:

WILLOW: I'm sorry Tara! I kissed another woman, I'm a terrible person! Please forgive me for kissing someone else!

Kennedy kisses Willow again

WILLOW: Ok, I'm good. Wanna see what's on tv?


There's no time between Willow having her complete meltdown and learning it's okay to move on and the start of Killow. Willow is in an emotionally vulnerable place and Kennedy just pursues her until she gives in. It feels like Kennedy takes advantage of Willow to further her own goals.
 

r2dh2

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This is what I take from it too. S5 the Slayer died, S7, the Slayer realises the world is too big to protect on her own and calls for support. Those who seek strength accept the gift, (and its challenges) knowing they are linked by a power that feeds on their choice of connection.

Me too, It feels more like a lighter comic type format and I find it leaves me happier than other seasons. I cheer for Chosen. Where as I don't really like graduation day part 1 and 2 much.
Yes, excellent point. But I interpret it slightly differently. In S5, she dies not only saving the world, but also saving Dawn. Remember her saying that if anyone touches Dawn, they’ll die? She’s putting Dawn above the world. She doesn’t even consider who will take care of the “evil” in her absence. The world is a second priority.

But in S7, there’s something different (remember her saying that now she’d let Dawn die if facing the same dilemma?). She has a bit of an attitude by then. She’s judge, jury and executioner more openly (she says so in Selfless). She tries to pretend (or wants to believe) that this responsibility is too big of a burden (“I’m the law” said to Xander). But during her conversation with Holden, she admits feeling superior. But why not? Every time, pre-S7, she has kicked ass, she has even defeated a Goddess.

I also think that some of her speeches in S7 show how she perceives herself. She’s morally superior, or even more, she’s beyond any moral standard.

Faith (in “who are you?”) remarks that Buffy suffers the burden of Slayerness, but I think that she actually enjoys it (not all of it of course). From my point of view, her whole attitude shows it, she’s unapologetically confident in most cases, never retreats from a fight (there are a few exceptions of course, like Glory or Caleb, etc.) and always uses a “bad-ass” or a sassy/sarcastic remark while she defeats her opponent. I personally LOVE her attitude (go girl power!), but I think that it feeds her superiority complex.

For me, the key difference is that in S7 (relative to S5) is that she realizes that she no longer wants to be unique. The “I don’t want to be the one” statement is very telling -- part coming from her inferiority complex (she’s not better than anyone else) and other part coming from her fear, the burden and the constant feeling of isolation (superiority complex). I love this dialogue between her and Holden, it’s very illuminating:


BUFFY: I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel? (sighs) this is awful? I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.

HOLDEN: Until you can't win. And I thought I was diabolical? or, at least I plan to be. You do have a superiority complex. And you've got an inferiority complex about it. (laughs) Kudos.

BUFFY: It doesn't make any sense.

HOLDEN (sits forward) Oh, it makes every kind of sense. And it all adds up to you feeling alone. But, Buffy, everybody feels alone. Everybody is, until you die.


So IMO, she doesn’t only realize that she needs help, she also wants to stop being the one. No more THE slayer, but becoming A slayer: She did nothing to win this power and she's always alone because of it. The First Evil’s actions opened her eyes to this realization.
 
M
MrsDupas
CWDP is brilliant!

r2dh2

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Buffy's speech, whilst harsh for sure, is also understandable. She is facing a battle like no other, the odds are continuously increasing to stack against her, she's been dumped with the responsibility of training up the potentials to fight but they don't particularly want to learn, she is seeing people die and can't do anything about it, etc. Buffy can't afford to carry passengers yet the potentials aren't doing anything to help themselves.
I agree and disagree with you. I HATE victim blaming and suicide is a very delicate subject. We know nothing about the state of mind of Chloe. She could have been clinically depressed (which is an incredibly debilitating illness and anything can set you off), or it could have been just that the First pushed her fears to the extreme (which is Buffy's main point).

BUT I agree that Buffy and the Scoobies are facing the battle of their lives. The potential are a bunch of scared kids, who unfortunately have to grow-up a lot in a matter of weeks. Buffy makes a decision when giving her speech trying to push everyone to open their eyes and take their responsibilities more seriously. I feel ambivalent in this case.

I find Kennedy's behaviour worse because it is what she did contributed to Chloe's suicide.
Uff this is a harsh statement. I don't like Kennedy but I wouldn't put blame into her per se. She's trying, in her own bratty way, to help with the training. She's harsh with Chloe, but it's part of the role she takes as a training "officer."

Now, did she contribute to the suicide per se? Ugh, yes and no. When you are depressed, anything can contribute to push you over the edge. So in that sense, Kennedy did piled up something else into Chloe's already fragile mental state (I'm making assumptions based on the fact that she killed herself, she must have been experiencing a great deal of distress already). But I wouldn't put it on Kennedy per se, she was only the last straw. Had Kennedy not treated her harshly, I do believe that anything else distressing Chloe could easily have been that last straw too.

When the First can practically say "you helped cause this" WITHOUT lying, there's a problem that needs to be addressed there because if Kennedy can do that to Chloe, what's to stop her doing it to another potential.
I disagree. Kennedy is not the underlaying cause of death of Chloe. Kennedy is only one contributing factor. Yes, I know that the First told her that "she helped" and it is true, but I see it from a different perspective. In the state of mind that they are, I do believe that anything/anyone could be that contributing factor. Suicide and mental health problems are more complex than one person speaking harshly to you one time, it builds up over time (it was only one time, right? there was no pattern of Kennedy being harsh with Chloe, right?). Killing yourself comes from feeling hopeless and helpless.

I see these feelings primarily coming from two sources (broadly speaking): 1) the pain has been unbearable for a long time before you make such decision. In other words, you simply can't take it anymore and small things just keeping feeding those feelings; or 2) You are presented with a situation where you foresee that the pain/shame/guilt/fear will be unbearable in the near feature and you decide to end it before it starts (think of apparently "morally sound" people who committed a crime and were discovered, they know that facing the consequences will be beyond themselves).

I do not think that Kennedy has that kind of power over any of them, including Chloe.

I think Kennedy was using Willow as a powerplay.
This is an interesting theory, I'd never thought of it in this way. Something to chew on for a while.

My main problem with Kennedy, besides her personality, is that I HATE her acting. I never feel her, so for me most of her scenes are not believable. So your observations might be true, or it just might be that the actress cannot sell what she's supposed to. (Is there any information from Joss or any other writer about whether she was sincere or not? they usually try to clarify these ambivalent positions in interviews).

Had Kennedy expressed some remorse over Chloe's death (even if another character reassured her that she was not to blame) then it would've made her more bearable, likewise if it was shown that the bratty persona was a front she put up to hide how scared she really was.
I give you this one. Her character does seem oblivious to several issues, Chloe's death is one of them.
 
Annie Hall
Annie Hall
I also dislike Kennedy's acting, I feel it's always forced and doesn't flow.

FirstEvil78

From beneath you, it devours... Spuffy lover
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I love this dialogue between her and Holden, it’s very illuminating:
I've always thought that CWDP is very telling in regard to Buffy's psyche. She finally opens up admitting things that she cannot tell to her friends and gives us a glance into how she perceives herself and her calling.

My takeaway from this season is if you have 30 new girls plus the core four plus various other assorted hangers-on in a bungalow with one bathroom, you are already in hell and you might as well face the Big Bad because it really can't get worse.
ONE BATHROOM! I'm curious as to how they survived so long with only one bathroom. I'd expect a higher body count within the house as they start fighting for that bathroom. It's kill or be killed, man. Maybe they had a schedule for the bathroom? I think this is one the biggest mysteries of BtVS.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@r2dh2 I agree that Kennedy was probably the straw that broke the camel's back and the fact that the first was picking people off didn't help Chloe's state of mind. However, it's Kennedy's complete lack of remorse over her actions towards Chloe which really bugs me.

Kennedy was one of the last people to talk to Chloe (if not THE last person, other than the first) before she killed herself. Given that their last interaction was not a positive one, any normal person would at least question whether they were at fault in any way, even if they weren't. Kennedy does not do this, even when the first spells it out to her that she did have a part to play. Kennedy shows no remorse for how she behaved towards Chloe, she had no right to behave that way, and even more annoying is that everyone seems to let her get away with her behaviour throughout the season rather than pulling her up on it. The closest we got to anyone doing so was Faith telling her to back off, but that should've happened sooner and only came about because Faith had to take Buffy's role as leader and thus couldn't be the potentials' "friend" anymore, yet you just know if Buffy had told Kennedy to back off then Kennedy would argue the toss over it.

Kennedy had no respect for Buffy and she only brown nosed Faith because she thought it would elevate her position within the group.

My takeaway from this season is if you have 30 new girls plus the core four plus various other assorted hangers-on in a bungalow with one bathroom, you are already in hell and you might as well face the Big Bad because it really can't get worse.
I don't know why they didn't take over the houses on either side of Buffy's and just build a really big fence around the three. The first knew where they were anyway so it's not like it would draw attention. By separating everyone out and giving them more space, people are more likely to get along.

ONE BATHROOM! I'm curious as to how they survived so long with only one bathroom. I'd expect a higher body count within the house as they start fighting for that bathroom. It's kill or be killed, man. Maybe they had a schedule for the bathroom? I think this is one the biggest mysteries of BtVS.
Weren't some staying at Xander's apartment with him? He was woken up from a sex fantasy to be told that the toilet was blocked and that one of the potentials had stomach flu.
 
Leo
Leo
I thought that the Xander's scene was in Buffy's house since they are trying to keep everybody together. But I'm not sure, I'd have to watch again this episode.

MrsDupas

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I agree and disagree with you. I HATE victim blaming and suicide is a very delicate subject. We know nothing about the state of mind of Chloe. She could have been clinically depressed (which is an incredibly debilitating illness and anything can set you off), or it could have been just that the First pushed her fears to the extreme (which is Buffy's main point).
The speech of Buffy is always something I'll disagree with, even if she does it for the "right" reasons. Victim blaming is coward. You know nothing about the other person, what gives you the right to judge?
 

Leo

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Ok, this is a long post. But summarizing MY take away from S7: learning to take responsibility for your actions, seeking forgiveness/redemption by following a bumpy and painful road (even when it feels impossible), becoming an adult, and learning to share the burden (no more isolation – or as some of you appropriately called it, “empowering” others).
How about Giles? How would fit him in your view of this season? He's already an adult. You also mention Robin in your post, but he's too an adult.

"Pardon me for finding the glass half full." Giles
 

r2dh2

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How about Giles? How would fit him in your view of this season? He's already an adult. You also mention Robin in your post, but he's too an adult.

"Pardon me for finding the glass half full." Giles
All people are allowed to grow up, even adults. Unfortunately, I really didn’t like Giles too much this season. He purposely left Sunnydale in S6 because he wanted Buffy to take responsibility as an adult (“OMWF/Tabula Rasa”). But once he’s back, I think that he’s having trouble letting Buffy be the leader, he spent 5-6 years being her mentor and paternal figure, and in S7 he isn’t anymore. I dislike how he goes against Buffy behind her back, trying to be paternalistic again (I hate that attitude: “you’ll thank me later, I know better than you”). So, I’d say that throughout the season he slowly has to accept his new position as another Scoobie instead of their guide (?).

That’s the best that I can offer, any other thoughts?

For me, Robin is more “straightforward” (?). He has to learn to forgive Spike (or at least, to stop trying to kill him). IMO, he grows up by accepting that the mission is more important than a personal vendetta.

And btw, he’s amazing with Faith. He is straightforward and openly states that he doesn’t want to play games. At the same time, he lets her know that he’s into her (all of her, not only her body). But they have to focus on the mission first, and then they can explore something more. Their conversation in the basement is hilarious (“He’s the most attractive one of the two” 🤣).

Anyhow, I distressed, I’d say that Robin is also on the path of forgiveness (letting go of his childhood trauma) and is reaching another milestone of adulthood (sometimes you have to do things that you hate).

But, I’m open to hear other opinions. I have nothing better to offer.
 
FirstEvil78
FirstEvil78
Why some men do that: “you’ll thank me later, I know better than you”? I just don't understand it specially when you are an adult (and that's how they sell us Buffy in S7, finally a grown up and the leader of the group).

thetopher

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Unfortunately, I really didn’t like Giles too much this season. He purposely left Sunnydale in S6 because he wanted Buffy to take responsibility as an adult (“OMWF/Tabula Rasa”). But once he’s back, I think that he’s having trouble letting Buffy be the leader
Interesting. But most people's problem with Giles in S7 stems from the fact that 'he dumps too much on Buffy', i.e he tells her to take command and lets her be leader because there really aren't any other options.
I mean, he's right but many think that the metaphor of the season is being established at the sake of characterization.

I find his actions in 'LMPTM' where he 'undermines' Buffy's increasingly questionable leadership/judgement to be probably the most in-character thing he does this season. He's done similar things before.

No trying to critique your arguement here but I'm not sure how this shows us how Giles has to 'keep developing as an adult'.

And btw, he’s amazing with Faith. He is straightforward and openly states that he doesn’t want to play games.
And Wood does this by playing the game of reverse psychology and undermining any sense of Faith's self-worth.
 

Btvs fan

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The speech of Buffy is always something I'll disagree with, even if she does it for the "right" reasons. Victim blaming is coward. You know nothing about the other person, what gives you the right to judge?
To me that's an out of universe problem. The Buffy writers clearly lacked the nuance or self awareness to realise what they are doing by giving Buffy that speech. They probably thought it sounded cool and moved on.
 
FirstEvil78
FirstEvil78
Yeah, the writers missed the mark several times in S6 (the AR scene, for instance) and S7.

r2dh2

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Interesting. But most people's problem with Giles in S7 stems from the fact that 'he dumps too much on Buffy', i.e he tells her to take command and lets her be leader because there really aren't any other options.
I mean, he's right but many think that the metaphor of the season is being established at the sake of characterization.

I find his actions in 'LMPTM' where he 'undermines' Buffy's increasingly questionable leadership/judgement to be probably the most in-character thing he does this season. He's done similar things before.

No trying to critique your arguement here but I'm not sure how this shows us how Giles has to 'keep developing as an adult'.
I don’t think that what you say is in direct contradiction with my statement. Giles behavior is ambivalent throughout the season. I feel him bouncing between trying to be the mentor and trying to let Buffy be the leader.

For me, LMPTM is the epitome of that ambivalence. Yes, it might be in character of Giles to do that. But we are 7 years into their relationship, Buffy has grown up, she’s the leader, she plans and executes the strategies, she calls the shots.

He clearly disagrees with her, they have several conversations and she stands her ground. So, he goes behind her back for her “own good.” But Buffy is no longer the teenager he was training, she’s the one in charge (she makes mistakes, we all know it, and her decision might be questionable). But if he really wanted her to grow up by leaving in S6 and by pushing her be the leader in S7, he should have respected her decision. Instead, he treats her like a child again, someone who doesn’t know better.

For me, this is a clear indication that despite wanting her to be the leader, he struggles with that new role, because where does that leave him? IMO, he has to grow up and come to the realization that he’s no longer the mentor, but instead another (albeit very important) member of group. By the end of the episode, Buffy has to toughen up, so she stops talking to him and instead decides to assert her position (and consequently HIS new role) by closing the door. He needs to understand that she is in charge. And this is what I refer to as “growing-up.” Just as in the case of Robin, he’s reaching another milestone of adulthood: roles change, and you have to adapt.

And Wood does this by playing the game of reverse psychology and undermining any sense of Faith's self-worth.
I think that Robin used the only strategy available to get through Faith. As much as I love Buffy, I’ve always been fascinated (and somewhat jealous) of Faith’s self-confidence. But I think that there’s a consensus that Faith’s personality is probably the outcome of a rough life. Faith takes from people and shields herself. Faith doesn’t trust and she says so, she’s a loner.

From my point of view, Faith is really thrown off sometimes by people’s responses, but never enough for allowing herself to trust. The two examples that I have in mind are during the body swap. She’s thrown off when Joyce shows compassion for Faith (or course, Joyce doesn’t know that Faith is using Buffy’s body) and the same happens with Riley, he’s sweet and loving, not just looking for hot sex.

I think Robin reads her well. He’s into her, but the only way of getting through her shield is by playing in her terms. She immediately assumes that once sex is on the table, nothing else matter, men only want her body. So, Robin, who’s also bracingly confident, cannot be sweet or romantic, or very forward (sexually), that would only make Faith retreat. Instead he’s just as cynical as she is, and that gets her attention. I see the comment that he’s hotter than her as a tongue-in-cheek remark. And the comment regarding their night together is the second bait to make her open up. But instead of accepting having sex with her in that moment, he offers her the possibility of surprising her in they survive.

IMO, he’s not undermining her self-worth. I see the opposite. I see him telling her, you are more than a pretty girl with a great body, and I’d like you to give me a chance to show you that not all men are bad. I honestly don’t see another way of getting through Faith’s shield.

Do you think that there was a better way of getting through her?
 
FirstEvil78
FirstEvil78
I think Robin and Faith were a great pairing.
KatrinaL
KatrinaL
Robin rules

Name the Stars

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Black Thorn
Personally I think it's that you can't always bear the burdens of life on your own. Sometimes you have to give up control, and you can't always be the leader.
 
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