• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Tara wouldn't have allowed The Scoobies to turn on Buffy...

forbuss

Witch
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
54
Age
29
Sineya
Throughout season six we saw Tara and Buffy's friendship blossom. I'm not sure what it was - maybe it was because Tara became friends with Buffy after the rest of The Scoobies, or maybe it because she was a highly perceptive person and witch.

I have always had a deep resentment for what everyone did to Buffy in season seven, especially after how badly I feel they treated her in season six. They bring her back, tell her the world needs her and then make her out to be insane and not fit to lead the group in what was essentially the 'final battle' between good and evil. I blame Willow mostly for this - her thirst for power didn't go away, it just transformed from being a magic addict to thinking she knew best. Buffy had been through a lot and I don't believe her leadership warranted questioning - especially from Willow, Xander and the often bratty and fear based potential slayers. I think the real issue was they didn't like Buffy's delivery and attitude - but who cares? Sure, you could argue Buffy was insensitive to the feelings and fears of the group and potential slayers, but who cares? She literally had the weight of the world on her shoulders and was trying her best to prepare them. I know some potentials died in season seven, but the reason they came to Buffy was for protection. They were being hunted regardless of whether Buffy was there and sadly, Buffy could not protect everyone. It's like they expected invulnerability by being close to Buffy and expected to be innocent victims vs slayers... Anyway.

I believe Tara was the first (and arguably only) person who bothered to get to know and understand Buffy for where she was after her resurrection - the rest of the gang just wanted her to be fine and pretend nothing had ever happened. To be fair, I think Dawn also did a good job of this - but I don't think Dawn's identity was consumed by being the Slayers sister - Dawn wanted Buffy to be a sister first, unlike Willow and Xander, who wanted her to be the Slayer first so they could reinforce their identity as Slayer-hanger-onners. This was to combat their consuming fear of being ordinary.

So - I think if Tara was alive in season seven she would have sided with Buffy and advocated against the voices that were saying Buffy was unfit to lead. I think this would be especially true if season seven Tara wasn't Willow's girlfriend but rather Buffy's best friend. Even in season six I felt like Tara trusted Buffy's judgement, even with all Buffy had been through. Remember when Buffy told Tara about Spike and Tara asked if she loved him? In find it hard to believe she would have gotten the same reaction from Willow, Xander, Giles or Dawn.

Do you think Tara would have been on Buffy's side in season seven?
 
Last edited:
Priceless
Priceless
Good question!

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,135
Age
32
I'm not so sure. Tara is peaceful and compassionate. She is well suited for the hardships of ordinary life, but I don't know how she would have responded to the ruthlessness of war.

Willow doesn't lead the mutiny, but she fails to stand up for Buffy, because Buffy refused to spend time with Xander at the hospital. Would Tara think that Buffy had the right idea by sending the potentials back to the vineyard or would she think that Buffy was taking the lives in her charge to lightly?

I don't think Tara would have thrown Buffy out of her house, but then again ... it doesn't make sense for any of them to throw her out. That confrontation is written really poorly. It makes sense that they don't want to follow her into battle again, because they fear more deaths and injuries, but you don't throw out your greatest warrior in a time like this, no matter how you feel about her.

I think Tara would have refused to pick sides and tried to make everyone come together.
 
Last edited:

forbuss

Witch
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
54
Age
29
Sineya
It makes sense that they don't want to follow her into battle again, because they fear more deaths and injuries, but you don't throw out your greatest warrior in a time like this, no matter how you feel about her.
This is what I mean when they say they didn't like her attitude/delivery. They didn't realize they were more screwed without her than with her.

I literally LIVED when Buffy didn't visit Xander at the hospital that much. Not to sound rude, but why would she? After season six I feel that Buffy had every reason to hate him. Again - this is from a season one-seven (probably 9+ if I read the comics) non Xander fan. He is definitely my most disliked character on the show - but I am not naive, I do see his value to the story/plot and other characters. But I think Anya could have done a lot better.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,135
Age
32
After season six I feel that Buffy had every reason to hate him.
Xander has done a lot for Buffy over the years, most recently losing an eye in an attack she ordered, saving the lives of her charges. And lately he has been helping her out a great deal in the day-to-day, not to mention that he saved the world a year a go.

I get that Buffy doesn't have time to hang with Xander at the hospital, but her friends and the potential needed to see that she cared about the deaths and injuries they suffered in the last attack, before agreeing to try the exact same thing again based on a vague hunch.
They didn't realize they were more screwed without her than with her.
Yes, and that is very hard to defend from a writerly perspective. They have three super human fighters: Buffy, Spike and Faith. Why would they throw out two of them?
 

forbuss

Witch
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
54
Age
29
Sineya
Xander has done a lot for Buffy over the years, most recently losing an eye in an attack she ordered, saving the lives of her charges. And lately he has been helping her out a great deal in the day-to-day, not to mention that he saved the world a year a go.

I get that Buffy doesn't have time to hang with Xander at the hospital, but her friends and the potential needed to see that she cared about the deaths and injuries they suffered in the last attack, before agreeing to try the exact same thing again based on a vague hunch.

Yes, and that is very hard to defend from a writerly perspective. They have three super human fighters: Buffy, Spike and Faith. Why would they throw out two of them?
You know what - you are right. I have a bad habit of letting my disdain for Xander essentially ignore everything he's done in the show. I'm trying to be better at recognizing that in Buffy discussions both on and offline. Thanks for calling me out - always do!!
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
There are times when a less forgiving person would have kicked Xander out of her life, but Buffy doesn't and they stay friends and continue to help each other out with small and big problems :)

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,026
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
In the first place, I think that Tara would have at the least insisted that the others hear Buffy out for her reasons for wanting to return to the vineyard, beginning with the all important issue of details and strategy. "We're going back in." is a mission statement, not a detailed battle plan. Buffy never even had the chance to explain what she had in mind.

Secondly, she would have pointed out that neither Faith nor Wood had been involved directly in the fight long enough to know what was going actually going on, and Giles was pretty much in the dark as to current events, so, once again, they should show Buffy the courtesy of at least hearing her out before making any judgements, pointing out that, up until that one single battle, Buffy had been carrying the whole fight and protecting them all up to the present moment.

And it goes without saying, a certain spoiled brat of a Potential would not have been allowed to have such a major role in a discussion ideally reserved for grownups. The front door was certainly always open to anyone coming there seeking help, but it swung both ways. Anyone who disagreed with the way that Buffy was running things (most of whom were, by the way, basically uninvited visitors, seeking her protection in the first place) would have certainly been free to leave, good luck, good riddance, and be sure to clean up all of your personal trash before you go.

(This episode is one of a, thankfully very short, list of episodes throughout the entire run of both series whose inclusion in the general plot line I totally disagree with, and think that Joss and his writing staff totally screwed up in wasting the time and expense money ever making. It comes off more like poorly written fan fiction than the polished narrative we had come to expect from them)
 

forbuss

Witch
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
54
Age
29
Sineya
Secondly, she would have pointed out that neither Faith nor Wood had been involved directly in the fight long enough to know what was going actually going on, and Giles was pretty much in the dark as to current events, so, once again, they should show Buffy the courtesy of at least hearing her out before making any judgements, pointing out that, up until that one single battle, Buffy had been carrying the whole fight and protecting them all up to the present moment.
I think this is really succinct and poignant. Up until this point they had literally been asking the world of Buffy and for her to sacrifice so much for them. I get that this is sortof the life track of the Slayer (to protect) but also not really as they were potential slayers who had people coming after them regardless of whether they lived under the same roof as Buffy (which they learned after they forced her to move out of her deceased mothers home after she invited them in uninvited). And the second she asks them for something that has risk? This may in fact be the first ever instance of cancel culture, because everyone in that house cancelled Buffy more hardcore than cottage core.

But yeah - Tara wouldn't have been this hasty, especially if we saw her and Buffy's friendship grow even more post season six.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
291
Age
62
In the first place, I think that Tara would have at the least insisted that the others hear Buffy out for her reasons for wanting to return to the vineyard, beginning with the all important issue of details and strategy. "We're going back in." is a mission statement, not a detailed battle plan. Buffy never even had the chance to explain what she had in mind.

Secondly, she would have pointed out that neither Faith nor Wood had been involved directly in the fight long enough to know what was going actually going on, and Giles was pretty much in the dark as to current events, so, once again, they should show Buffy the courtesy of at least hearing her out before making any judgements, pointing out that, up until that one single battle, Buffy had been carrying the whole fight and protecting them all up to the present moment.

And it goes without saying, a certain spoiled brat of a Potential would not have been allowed to have such a major role in a discussion ideally reserved for grownups. The front door was certainly always open to anyone coming there seeking help, but it swung both ways. Anyone who disagreed with the way that Buffy was running things (most of whom were, by the way, basically uninvited visitors, seeking her protection in the first place) would have certainly been free to leave, good luck, good riddance, and be sure to clean up all of your personal trash before you go.

(This episode is one of a, thankfully very short, list of episodes throughout the entire run of both series whose inclusion in the general plot line I totally disagree with, and think that Joss and his writing staff totally screwed up in wasting the time and expense money ever making. It comes off more like poorly written fan fiction than the polished narrative we had come to expect from them)
I love this post thank you and you captured perfectly how I feel about it

In theory I think Tara would have stood up for Buffy, but also in theory I would very much have believed an incharacter Giles would have Also- instead he was a main driver in getting her out so it would depend how ooc they write Tara
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,267
Age
38
Ignoring the fact that I think the writers were burned out and didn't care anymore so that Tara would've been part of the mutiny as well, trying to make sense out of a nonsensical season, one of two things would've happened:

One, Tara would've kept the core from drifting apart as they had so it didn't lead to that. Or two, she'd be too cowed and demoralized to do anything other than be a wallflower (though this would be a regression of her character). The biggest question is what role does Kennedy play, because I think the Kennedy dynamics with Willow (and/or Tara!) would influence Tara the most. It is a Joss Whedon show after all, so naturally the smaller brains (genitals) dominate male and female characters alike, and Kennedy's influence could really throw Tara for a loop that affects her judgment and morale. (While Tara might be visited by her dead mother throwing her off her game even further, I think the First was too incompetent to even think of that, despite briefly having done so with Wood and Dawn, and possibly with Buffy.)


Oh, and while I'm at it...though Xander made his reasonable doubts about Spike known, he was the ONLY one that fully backed Buffy, even allowing a dangerous Spike stay with him, and also was the one to seriously consider how Spike wasn't to blame for his recent actions. In the never ending quest of some fans to hate Xander, many forget that, so I'm bringing it up again.

That, and the empath Tara (who had a more subtle but still gifted control of the magicks) combined with Xander's deductions could've created a less dramatic and bitter way of removing the trigger (assuming the writers still had a passion for the show, which I don't think they had).
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,026
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
This thread reminds me of something that the Russo Brothers said about their motives in essentially disbanding the Avengers in "Captain America: Civil War." The Avengers, as a united team, as written, as unarguably Earth's mightiest heroes , is totally unstoppable. They would prevail against the combined forces of All The Hoards of Hell. Therefore, the team had to be disbanded for "Infinity War" to happen. The team comes together once more in "Endgame" and victory is assured.

That's basically the same thing that happened at the end of Buffy's final Season. The Scoobies had taken on all comers for the entire run of the Series, had beaten everything from master vampires to cybernetic super soldiers to literally a god. United, they would have had little to fear from what was presented as an incorporeal concept of Evil, regardless of how many minions it could throw at them. Buffy and her team are Whedon's equivalent of the Avengers, their own Earth's Mightiest Heroes. The only thing that could beat the Avengers, the only thing that could beat the Scoobies, were the respective teams themselves. The fell from within, not from the power of any possible adversary. They came back together, and victory was the only possible result.

Ironic, isn't it, that Joss created both teams for their first theatrical presentations?

(It's late at night, everyone else is asleep, and an old man's mind tends to wander. Thanks for your indulgence. Now, back on subject...)
 

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
161
Age
50
Location
London
I hope I don't give any sort of impression that I'm being pretentious but I think the wording of the thread saying that 'Tara wouldn't have ALLOWED The Scoobies to turn on Buffy' is not for Tara do be able to think she could do that.

While it can be viewed that any or all of The Scoobies handled that situation with Buffy in the wrong way, they are going to feel the way they do and react in the way they feel is justifiable.

Now my actually thought would be would Tara have PREVENTED The Scoobies from turning on Buffy? And being the character that she was in series/season six and her development over her time on the show particularly in her relationship with Willow and all that happened there. Tara had become very much a character that could stand on her own two feet and be very clear in her thoughts and opinions.
So even loving Willow and caring for the rest of them as she did, if she believed they were unfairly acting out/badly towards Buffy, she would firmly put her case across and would hold her ground even if others were trying to pressure her to be on their side.

And I would imagine that Tara's thoughts on the matter would have left a heavy impression especially Willow and Dawn.

Plus I think there would have been even more time for Buffy and Tara's friendship to deepen and become much stronger because of their growing connection after Buffy had confided to her.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
8,682
Age
30
If Tara is still about then that means that Kennedy hasn't gotten her claws into Willow. This in turn means that Willow isn't going to be cowed into silence by Kennedy during the mutiny so Buffy wouldn't be isolated with everyone against her.
 

Athene

Scooby
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
2,400
Age
20
Sineya
I think if Tara were there she would have been given a reason to be against Buffy just like everyone else was.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
291
Age
62
If Tara is still about then that means that Kennedy hasn't gotten her claws into Willow. This in turn means that Willow isn't going to be cowed into silence by Kennedy during the mutiny so Buffy wouldn't be isolated with everyone against her.
It also means Kennedy doesn’t have the power to start the mutiny. I genuinely think if Kennedy hasn’t been with Willow Buffy would have set her straight a long time prior
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,026
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
If Tara is still about then that means that Kennedy hasn't gotten her claws into Willow. This in turn means that Willow isn't going to be cowed into silence by Kennedy during the mutiny so Buffy wouldn't be isolated with everyone against her.
In Willow's defense, and I honestly surprise myself that I would find myself defending anything that the mutineers did that night, at that precise moment in time, her oldest and closest friend in the world had just been maimed in the service of another friend was not as old, and mostly not as close (plus, said friend had been acting somewhat squirrely lately, defending the very vampire who had tried to rape her less than a year previously) Given time to reflect on her actions, I have no doubt that Willow, along with Giles, Xander, empty eye socket notwithstanding,and most of the newly activated Slayers, actually apologized to Buffy for doubting her judgement concerning her leadership methods and everything concerning Spike (well, maybe not Giles, but that's a story for a different discussion) We should have been given such a scene, and I would love to think that Joss actually did write it, but didn't wind up with enough time to do it justice. (Combining elements from the final scene in his movie "Serenity" and the series finale of "Dollhouse," could have been perfect)

Buffy's announcement that she planned to return to the vineyard was ill timed and poorly presented, and letting Wood and the Potentials even know anything about those plans before actually having a definite working plan, let alone participate in any sort of discussion in the matter. She should have taken Giles, Willow, Xander, Faith, and Spike into the basement, locked the door, and explained her plan in general, then worked on the actual details with her friends. Only then, with their support, should she have said anything to the Potentials (preferably after sending Wood, Kennedy, and Dawn out to scrounge the local grocery and hardware, and drug stores for food, possible weapons, and medical supplies)
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
291
Age
62
In Willow's defense, and I honestly surprise myself that I would find myself defending anything that the mutineers did that night, at that precise moment in time, her oldest and closest friend in the world had just been maimed in the service of another friend was not as old, and mostly not as close (plus, said friend had been acting somewhat squirrely lately, defending the very vampire who had tried to rape her less than a year previously) Given time to reflect on her actions, I have no doubt that Willow, along with Giles, Xander, empty eye socket notwithstanding,and most of the newly activated Slayers, actually apologized to Buffy for doubting her judgement concerning her leadership methods and everything concerning Spike (well, maybe not Giles, but that's a story for a different discussion) We should have been given such a scene, and I would love to think that Joss actually did write it, but didn't wind up with enough time to do it justice. (Combining elements from the final scene in his movie "Serenity" and the series finale of "Dollhouse," could have been perfect)

Buffy's announcement that she planned to return to the vineyard was ill timed and poorly presented, and letting Wood and the Potentials even know anything about those plans before actually having a definite working plan, let alone participate in any sort of discussion in the matter. She should have taken Giles, Willow, Xander, Faith, and Spike into the basement, locked the door, and explained her plan in general, then worked on the actual details with her friends. Only then, with their support, should she have said anything to the Potentials (preferably after sending Wood, Kennedy, and Dawn out to scrounge the local grocery and hardware, and drug stores for food, possible weapons, and medical supplies)
I’ve always thought that Buffy learns her lesson about the likes of Wood during that. When she’s telling the others in the bedroom the activating slayer plan she keeps it just to her inner circle and the likes of Wood and Kennedy are noticeably absent
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,026
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
I’ve always thought that Buffy learns her lesson about the likes of Wood during that.
No doubt, Wood was still more than a little miffed about Buffy telling him that she would let Spike kill him. For someone who was the son of a Slayer, and was raised by a retired Watcher, he didn't seem to have a clue as to the importance of what was actually happening there in Sunnydale. As Buffy had pointed out, Spike was the strongest warrior in Buffy's team in what was literally a war to defend the entire human race. I can understand the man wanting his justice against his mother's killer, and even his refusal to accept the fact that the Spike there in Sunnydale was no longer the monster who killed her, but not his attempt to put the entire world at risk for a few moments of revenge, and I can't believe that anyone with even average intelligence would not have realized the the First Evil was playing him as surely as it ever did Spike.
 

Faded90

Potential
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
291
Age
62
No doubt, Wood was still more than a little miffed about Buffy telling him that she would let Spike kill him. For someone who was the son of a Slayer, and was raised by a retired Watcher, he didn't seem to have a clue as to the importance of what was actually happening there in Sunnydale. As Buffy had pointed out, Spike was the strongest warrior in Buffy's team in what was literally a war to defend the entire human race. I can understand the man wanting his justice against his mother's killer, and even his refusal to accept the fact that the Spike there in Sunnydale was no longer the monster who killed her, but not his attempt to put the entire world at risk for a few moments of revenge, and I can't believe that anyone with even average intelligence would not have realized the the First Evil was playing him as surely as it ever did Spike.
He even encourages Faith to believe The First that Buffy is dangerous. Like wow
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,267
Age
38
Just out of curiosity, any good fanfic that replaces the season 7 we got? (And by that I don't mean season 7 with a Mary Sue/Marty Stu in it to yell at everyone, but instead gives us a completely different arc that includes little to none of season 7, preferably no First Evil.) I'm sure even some kids could've made a better season than season 7 even while keeping their grade point average up.

Seeing a different arc that negates season 6 would also work for me.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,026
Age
73
Location
rome, georgia
Just out of curiosity, any good fanfic that replaces the season 7 we got?
I've suggested on several occasions, on several forums, rewriting Season 7 with the simple change of swapping Spike's arc with Faith and vice versa. It would have to include Faith's involvement in Season 4 "Angel," which would work if Spike had gone to Angel for help with his new soul and Buffy finding Faith, battered, bruised, and barely coherent, maybe babbling about eyeless monsters attacking her prison. Beyond that, their stories could be easily swapped (For instance, instead of Robin coming to town, Alan Finch's sister comes seeking revenge) I think that that change alone would make a really interesting Season 7 alternative, and there's the added benefit for a relatively ignored group of shippers (Fuffy) to get some major coverage.

Anyone with the time, talent, and inclination to take on an episode by episode project (I, unfortunately, have none of those) is more than welcome to the idea.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Yes, I like that idea, even though it otherwise sticks to season 7 territory.
Top Bottom