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The inspirational Greta Thunberg and the fight for climate change

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DeadlyDuo

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They should show Blue Planet 2 in schools to show the effect of plastics in the ocean and environment.
 

Mr Trick

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They should show Blue Planet 2 in schools to show the effect of plastics in the ocean and environment.
Not a bad idea. I certainly think they should include lessons in school on such important issues. It's a good way to educate people at a young age.
 
ILLYRIAN
ILLYRIAN
But would they be taught the facts or what the governments want them to know?

ILLYRIAN

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Hopefully those teenagers will make the old fuddy-duddies in power realise they are idiots.
Like the Liberal political party in Australia who claim they can reach the targets of the Paris Protocol even though target figures haven't been stated yet.
Or Donald Trump who seems content to lead the world to its destruction.
 
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Well said!

Mr Trick

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@ILLYRIAN I can't answer that. I don't think many countries actually deny the problems with the earth its just they choose bury it beneath less important issues. I just think its important that these issues are teached at school age. It's unlikely to happen sadly.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Oh, good grief.

Does anyone believe there is a necessity to "raise awareness" (and I never contribute to any cause whose mandate is to raise awareness) of something that has been hammered into our skulls for the past two decades? There are a lot of people who don't believe, not because they are not environmentally "woke" but because they look at the mathematical models for what is happening to the climate and find there are a lot of holes in what we understand. This is sort of like hippies being against "the man" without any understanding of business or economics. A student strike will not do anything at all when there is no understanding of the correct path to choose.

To understand things, you need a sense of history and a sense of chemistry.

HISTORY

A thousand years ago, the Vikings settled Greenland and set up a society much like that in Norway at the time. This included growing crops of rye. Rye doesn't grow there now because it is too cold and only some experimental crops are being started there now. Between then and now, we had the Little Ice Age, from 1300AD when Viking society in Greenland died out to 1850 AD. During the time of lowest temperatures, the carbon dioxide level was at 285 ppm and plant leaves from that era had far more stomata (the breathing holes in leaves) than plants today because they were in dire distress. The current level is about 410 ppm and rising by about 5 ppm per year. The concentration for supposedly stable temperature is 350 ppm. But in the time of the dinosaurs, the number was 1100 ppm and the temperature was about 5C higher than it is now, but it was stable and the plants loved it - enough that the oxygen concentration in the world was about 30%. The "hockey stick" temperature graph that Al Gore threatened us with has been debunked. Every so often, we get volcanoes such as Soufriere and Pinatubo that reduce our temperatures and when the Yellowstone volcano blows, we are going to be happy for every bit of carbon dioxide we exhaled.

There is also a demand problem - cutting down trees such as the deforestation of the Amazon is reducing the ability to absorb carbon dioxide and one area where I agree with @DeadlyDuo is the use of the oceans as garbage dumps is decreasing the ability of single-celled plants to supply oxygen and remove carbon dioxide. The most reckless act ever on this planet was the shipment of defoliants from the US to Viet Nam - if one ship had gone down and lost its contents, the oxygen level in the world would have plummeted from 21% to 16%, all for a war that had no justification.

CHEMISTRY

Photosynthesis is one of the most endothermic (heat absorbing) reactions in all of chemistry. Six molecules of carbon dioxide plus five molecules of water plus 671,000 calories per mole creates a molecule of starch and six molecules of oxygen. A typical explosive would release 250,000 calories per mole. Photosynthesis is a natural refrigerator. When trees are cleared as they are in the Amazon, new subdivision housing and cities, the temperature will naturally rise.

Sorry, but one girl skipping school to raise awareness of something everyone has been exposed to is not worth much. A better atmospheric model would be worth something. Actual science could be taught - but not to someone who is skipping school. And actual science is the only thing that will get people to understand the problem - running around like Chicken Little saying, "the sky is falling" is not going to convince anyone of anything, nor does it lead to appropriate policies.
 

nightshade

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Instead of doing protests, why aren't they doing fundraising to make sure that their schools are using renewable energy, that they are able to be ecological and making an impact that way. A more productive way than cutting class.
 

Taake

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"Following Sweden’s hottest summer ever, Greta Thunberg decided to go on school strike at the parliament to get politicians to act"

- lol, they left out the part where she had a PR-firm behind her before going on strike and that "getting the politicians to act" included getting national attention right before the release of the book she'd written about it with her, in Sweden, famous mother. So Greta at least had to cut class because she was interested in getting some green for her book, and I don't mean lawns.
 
nightshade
nightshade
Interesting how these things happen
Ethan Reigns
Ethan Reigns
That explains a lot.

ILLYRIAN

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In the decades prior folk needed to be told about climate change, but not now as it is happening. Many countries are sinking below the rising waters, in other countries the low lying lands are starting to feel the effects. Just look at Florida or the coast of Maine or maybe you'd prefer to see Cumbria in the UK become one big lake.
Anything is better than reading about Vikings in Greenland again, the same old rhetoric gets dished up every time.
To those who don't believe in climate change this don't concern you but to those who do believe which country will be under water first?
 

The Bronze

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Sorry, but one girl skipping school to raise awareness of something everyone has been exposed to is not worth much.
Maybe not but all movements start somewhere. We may not need awareness but we sure as hell need action and urgency. If a country isn't prioritising this issue then actions like this are to be commended, regardless of whether there's cash to be made or not.

My country is currently deciding whether we should risk starving ourselves to keep some foreigners out.

USA is having on / off government while they decide on whether they need to keep some foreigners out.

Hungary is encouraging their population to breed as much as possible, to keep some foreigners out.

I reckon most countries are faffing about with nonsense like this. It's all going to look pretty stupid when the world becomes to hostile for us to survive.
 

The Bronze

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Well some of just look at reality rather than hysteria...
Isn't the accepted reality by the vast majority of scientists that if we don't get a handle on the various environmental issues that we're facing / causing then we'll be facing an irreversible environmental disaster within decades?
 
Bluebird
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"Sure, you can prove anything with facts" my fav Stewart Lee quote lol

Ethan Reigns

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If you watch "Anote's Ark", a movie about Anote Tong, president of the island of Kiribati in the south Pacific, he is trying to get people off the island before it gets completely submerged. He used reserve funds to buy land in Vanuatu, another island that is not so threatened but after he stepped down, the new government reversed his environmental policies. Even when disaster is imminent, people still want to cling to what they had. There is a need to relocate people and part of the story follows a couple who moved to New Zealand. Try that anywhere else - America doesn't want immigration, Europe doesn't want immigration, Australia doesn't want immigration, there are going to be a lot of people who have to go somewhere and there is nowhere to go. The movie compared it to slavery, everyone knew it existed but until a couple of centuries ago, no one did anything about it because they didn't see it as a problem worth disturbing the economic system to fix.

Florida is losing a football field per day to the encroaching ocean and Louisiana is losing a football field per hour to rising water and in one coastal area, an old sugar plantation has been bought to house the residents of drowned land and land in imminent danger about 30 miles inland. Land has been bought in New Jersey to relocate people in places that will be wiped out by the next storm after Sandy. This problem will not be handled until the sea rises enough to disable a lot of infrastructure. The runways at Kennedy International Airport are at an altitude of 12 feet and Logan Field in Boston is similar (but its altitude looked lower last time I was there). Once the infrastructure is so badly damaged that the almighty dollar is at risk, maybe even the conservatives will stop blocking environmental measures, but until then, there will always be people who would rather keep money in their pockets now than invest in maintaining the infrastructure for the future. The rebuilding of New Orleans was one of the most idiotic efforts people have ever undertaken. Half of the city is fifty feet below sea level and the sea wall barriers were all put up by the lowest bidder. At least the dikes in Holland were put up by people who lived there and had an incentive to do the job right.

Elsewhere, governments have instituted "carbon taxes" and "cap and trade" policies for carbon use because the focus is on carbon dioxide as the main actor. Norway has had a carbon tax in place since 1990 and no one is really able to say whether it has done any good or not. The last time I commuted to work, the place I worked at was 40 km / 24 miles from home. I had made my fuel budget for the week with less than an hours' work. A lot of people are in the same situation where the cost of fuel is so low that piling on extra cost is not going to change their behaviour. Rationing, as happened in California in the 1970's, is more effective. But this all supposes that carbon dioxide is the problem and reducing fuel usage will reverse the problem. Carbon dioxide has very high absorption of infrared at wavelengths of 10 micrometers and longer and zero absorption at shorter wavelengths. Since the earth radiates infrared in the band from 8 (hot) to 14 (cold) micrometers, the increase in carbon dioxide affects arctic and antarctic temperatures more than temperatures in equatorial and temperate zones.

My objection to Greta Thunberg is that she is just saying, "We have a problem, fix it!" with no suggestions of what policies to adopt, what science to study, what engineering to undertake and what specific steps to take. And of couse as @Taake said, it's just PR for a book, so everyone just dismisses it as that.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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Look, a giant asteroid will probably slam into Earth, exterminating all life WAY before a climate change does, so everyone should just relax.
 
GraceK
GraceK
I’m still waiting for the aliens to invade and for an epic battle to begin like in the Matrix 😂

Mr Trick

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Oh, good grief.

Does anyone believe there is a necessity to "raise awareness" (and I never contribute to any cause whose mandate is to raise awareness) of something that has been hammered into our skulls for the past two decades? There are a lot of people who don't believe, not because they are not environmentally "woke" but because they look at the mathematical models for what is happening to the climate and find there are a lot of holes in what we understand. This is sort of like hippies being against "the man" without any understanding of business or economics. A student strike will not do anything at all when there is no understanding of the correct path to choose.

To understand things, you need a sense of history and a sense of chemistry.

HISTORY

A thousand years ago, the Vikings settled Greenland and set up a society much like that in Norway at the time. This included growing crops of rye. Rye doesn't grow there now because it is too cold and only some experimental crops are being started there now. Between then and now, we had the Little Ice Age, from 1300AD when Viking society in Greenland died out to 1850 AD. During the time of lowest temperatures, the carbon dioxide level was at 285 ppm and plant leaves from that era had far more stomata (the breathing holes in leaves) than plants today because they were in dire distress. The current level is about 410 ppm and rising by about 5 ppm per year. The concentration for supposedly stable temperature is 350 ppm. But in the time of the dinosaurs, the number was 1100 ppm and the temperature was about 5C higher than it is now, but it was stable and the plants loved it - enough that the oxygen concentration in the world was about 30%. The "hockey stick" temperature graph that Al Gore threatened us with has been debunked. Every so often, we get volcanoes such as Soufriere and Pinatubo that reduce our temperatures and when the Yellowstone volcano blows, we are going to be happy for every bit of carbon dioxide we exhaled.

There is also a demand problem - cutting down trees such as the deforestation of the Amazon is reducing the ability to absorb carbon dioxide and one area where I agree with @DeadlyDuo is the use of the oceans as garbage dumps is decreasing the ability of single-celled plants to supply oxygen and remove carbon dioxide. The most reckless act ever on this planet was the shipment of defoliants from the US to Viet Nam - if one ship had gone down and lost its contents, the oxygen level in the world would have plummeted from 21% to 16%, all for a war that had no justification.

CHEMISTRY

Photosynthesis is one of the most endothermic (heat absorbing) reactions in all of chemistry. Six molecules of carbon dioxide plus five molecules of water plus 671,000 calories per mole creates a molecule of starch and six molecules of oxygen. A typical explosive would release 250,000 calories per mole. Photosynthesis is a natural refrigerator. When trees are cleared as they are in the Amazon, new subdivision housing and cities, the temperature will naturally rise.

Sorry, but one girl skipping school to raise awareness of something everyone has been exposed to is not worth much. A better atmospheric model would be worth something. Actual science could be taught - but not to someone who is skipping school. And actual science is the only thing that will get people to understand the problem - running around like Chicken Little saying, "the sky is falling" is not going to convince anyone of anything, nor does it lead to appropriate policies.
I don't think the point of this movement is to raise awareness. The point is to actually try and pressure people in power into doing something about it. Regardless of whether it will do any good, its a positive move by a young person and a number of young people. I think teenagers taking an interest and caring about the state of the planet should be encouraged.

Instead of doing protests, why aren't they doing fundraising to make sure that their schools are using renewable energy, that they are able to be ecological and making an impact that way. A more productive way than cutting class.
I think the reason is because at this stage we need more proactive actions. We all know that using renewable energy helps but clearly not enough people are doing that and its a bigger problem than just that.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Renewable energy (and I used to work at a company that did solar array converters from 30 KW to 500 KW and fuel cell converters in 1.2 MW and 2.4 Mw sizes) has a storage problem. Hydroelectric power is usable because it is steady. Wind and solar power is not. Maintaining a constant voltage in a power grid is not as easy as it looks. There is a time delay in the response due to changes in load. Add changes in supply and you go from precarious to unmanageable. Wind is not always reliable and solar has guaranteed periods of uselessness (night). A good energy storage project would add life to these technologies but places that were proactive in wind power (like Germany) have scaled back on their wind farms precisely because of control issues.

Imagine if you had cruise control on your car - it can maintain speed by controlling throttle opening on the engine. Now suppose you had an additional engine adding random amounts of power. It could remain controllable only if there was a limited supply of extra power or limited variation over time in power level. A viable energy storage technology could mitigate the variations and make it useful but a lot of current installation are just grandstanding - adding solar or wind energy just to show you are environmentally "woke". Other users want installations that would enable independence from the grid - the US Air Force was looking at about 44 MW of solar energy they wanted to install at air bases which would feed battery arrays and maintain power if the grid went down. But make no mistake - selling alternate energy is an uphill battle.
 

ILLYRIAN

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Raising awareness of climate change was done a decade or so ago. Climate change has begun as some countries are being affected by rising water levels, some countries will be under water in 5 years IE they will cease to exist.
And still some folk go on about poor energy storage, doesn't everyone know that with greater use comes greater advancements in storage capacity. Greater values have been collected from solar power on solar panels that have been built in the last few years.
Any mention of storage of fossil fuel gained electricity?
The best joke are the countries who say they are building solar farms or wind turbine farms yet they keep digging up mega 1000's of tonnes of coal, such as Australia and America.

A laughable joke are the wassocks who buy a hybrid car and tell folk how good they are to the planet. How many of those wassocks destroy their old gas guzzler car or give it to someone else, giving it to someone else only adds to the problem.

But make no mistake if you don't start to use alternative energy soon it'll be to late. Take a look at what is happening to the earth. They are now saying all insect will cease to be by the turn of the century, if humans are around to take note.
 

nightshade

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I think the reason is because at this stage we need more proactive actions.
I guess it depends on if you view children skipping school to protest this as being proactive, and I don't. I view doing something as being proactive, and missing class to tell people what they already know, what MPs already know, is to me not proactive.

@Ethan Reigns The UK is an island, we could easily use water more to produce electricity, lots of estuaries going into open water that we could use.
 
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