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The killing of Drogyn

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by flow, May 12, 2017.

  1. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I just finished watching AtS 5 for the first time and there is one particular scene that keeps me wondering.

    Angel wants to destroy the circle of the black thorne and to kill every meber of it. Fine with me. He is putting the lifes of his friends at risk but that is okay, because everyone of them volunteers. They could have walked away. He knows that the Senior Partners will "rain hell on them" afterwards and he still decides to carry his plan through. Now this is at least questionable, because the revenge of the Senior Partners will not only affect him and his team but everyone in L.A.

    But what I really find hard to accept is the killing of Drogyn. Angel enters the circle of the black thorne and is challenged to kill Drogyn who is absolutely helpless because his hands are tied up and he has been beaten up. Drogyn is not on the evil side.. He is actually a friend of Angel. He has not volunteered for Angels plan. He was never asked, if he is willing to risk or sacrifice his life for the destruction of the circle of the black thorne. He might have thought it to be a stupid plan, had he been asked. But he never was asked.

    He is an innocent victim.

    Was Angel really justified to kill him ? He didn`t even safe anyone elses life by doing so, because his plan was never about saving innocent people oder the world. But even if that had been the case, if - for an example - one hundred innocent People could have been saved by killing Drogyn, Angel still wouldn`t have been justified to act the way he did. You cannot tip the scale that way.The life of one person is not less worthy than the life of one hundred persons.

    Is Angel justified to make the decision that the killing of Drogyn is necessary for the "greater good" of his plan ? Can the end justify the means ?

    And if not, what does this mean for Angels redemption ? Can he still be redeemed although the killing of Drogyn has been not only sad and maybe unnecessary but also a murder and a clear act of evil ?

    I remember Angel explaining the killing of Drogyn by saying "They would have killed us both". That is probably true. But is he justified to kill an innocent and helpless person in order not to get killed himself ?

    I would love to hear your thoughts on that !

    flow
     
  2. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    This scene is comparable in real life to some of the worst street gangs who insist on witnessing a prospective member killing another person in order to avoid infiltration by police. The killing seals the prospect as a gang member forever - it is the only way to get in and no one gets out. It is definitely an unjustified murder.

    Angel has a character arc, but like Buffy, we see him rise to great heights then fall from those heights. Just like Buffy finally accepted her role as slayer and peaked as a great general in the fight against the mayor but was completely irrational in the final fight against The First, Angel rose through his love for Buffy then declined when he accepted employment at Wolfram & Hart. What we are witnessing here is his status going from morally grey at times to irredeemable. It is part of a saying of his that I absolutely hate:

    "If nothing we do matters then all that matters is what we do."

    This is one of his most quoted points but if you parse it carefully, you see the flaws. Here he positions himself like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills but accomplishing nothing. If ending the Circle of the Black Thorn actually made evil disappear, there might be a tradeoff here. But Angel knows the Circle of the Black Thorn is not the original source of evil. It is an organization that is protected by evil and given great wealth in exchange for its service to evil but it is not the source of evil. They are not the Senior Partners or even the First (which supposedly in the Buffyverse is the original source of evil) and Angel knows that because he saw Buffy fight the First in the previous year and she managed to stymie the First's plans for a time but not defeat it. A more consistent saying should be:

    "If nothing we do matters then it doesn't matter what we do."

    but that still would not be correct. The problem is, everything we do matters - it just might not accomplish the goals we have set. There is no more dramatic a finale in any series on television than Not Fade Away. But far from accomplishing anything worthwhile, it makes matters worse for all of the innocent people in L.A. There is no greater good. The end is worse, so it does not justify the means. Although he is correct in saying "they would have killed us both", Angel deliberately put himself in that position so he cannot use it as a defence of his actions. Angel has been completely corrupted by this point.
     
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  3. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    Wow, thank you. That pretty much is what I felt but could not express it in words.

    But still it is so sad. If he is past redemption now because he has murdered Drogyn then everything he has tried to achieve in three seasons of Buffy and five seasons of Angel is lost. He has accomplished nothing.

    I am wondering if he should have been saying "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is how we do it." That we do it as humans and do not become the monsters we try to fight.

    flow
     
  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    To Angel's way of thinking, he was perfectly justified in murdering (or sacrificing) Drogyn to serve his purpose. Remember when Angel offered Xander to Spike in Season 2, as a ruse to make Spike trust him? Afterward, he said, "Well, if he bit you, we would have known that he fell for it," or something like that. Well, Spike most likely would have killed Xander, not just bitten him, and anything less than his actual death would not have made Spike accept that Angel was truly evil. Would Angel have allowed that, if that was the only way to infiltrate Spike's game? Considering what he did to Drogyn in Season 5, maybe so.

    Angel consistently acts for what he considers the "greater good," even if it means sacrificing others. It's one of his character flaws. He has to be the one in charge. There have been a few exceptions, but only a few. He's certainly willing to risk his own life for the good of the mission, and he takes it as his natural authority as leader to risk the lives of others without asking their permission, or even warning them. It certainly seems consistent with that logic to assume that, if he is willing to risk a life, he would be just as willing to take it himself, if he considered the end result to be worth doing so.
     
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  5. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I remember that Scene. But I always thought that Angel had a plan there. maybe he wanted to hit Spike just when Spike was really distracted biting Xander. being bitten by a vamnpire doesn`t necessarily mean your dead or sired. You can survive as a human.

    Xander definetly didn`t like but I would not accuseAngel of sacrificing him or letting him die on purpose. But thank you for your toughts on this matter.

    flow
     
  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    It never got to the actual "sacrificing" moment, but it still no doubt scared the living s**t out of Xander, and rightly so. He had no clue what was going on, and, for all he knew, that whole "tortured soul gets 'em every time" ruse that Spike and Angel were talking about could have been true. That might very well have been at least part of the reason for him telling Buffy that Willow said for her to "kick (Angel's) ass" later on.
     
  7. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Surrealistic Ninja

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    Black Thorn
    That scene bothered me as well. A lot.