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The Season of the Many Love Triangles

  • Thread starter WillowFromBuffy
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WillowFromBuffy

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  1. Angel → Cordelia ← Connor
  2. Cordelia → Angel → Gwen Raiden
  3. Wesley → Fred ← Gunn
  4. Fred → Gunn → Gwen Raiden
  5. Cordelia → Connor → Faith
  6. Lilah → Wesley ← Fred

This season is so strange in so many ways, but the way is deals with relationships is the strangest of all. The whole first half of the season is just people being thirsty or being jealous and grumpy or being grossed out by someone else's inappropriate thirsty-ness.

The worst is that this is it. There is nothing else happening. There are some priestesses, who are dead, and there are these magical beings we've never heard about, but it does not matter, because they are also all dead.

Is there anything remotely redeemable about the first 12 episodes? If so, I don't see it.
 

AnthonyCordova

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I prefer the first half of season 4 over the last half. I like the tension and gravitas of the Beast and the dillema that he creates over what the Jasmine storyline offers. In my opinion, episodes like Apocalypse Nowish, Habeas Corpses, Long Day's Journey etc. are not about soapy relationship drama at all, but about what to that point had been the most challenging enemy Angel and company ever faced. I thought every one of the big arc episodes were incredibly dramatic and filled with tension, similar to the tension and denouement of the latter half of S5 Buffy. Also, within those first 12 episodes of S4 we also get the return of Angelus. In my opinion, this is the most interesting version of Angelus that we get on either show. This extends into the first 15 episodes or so, where we also get some of Faith's best work on either show too. Going back a bit, there are some really great one-off episodes like Spin the Bottle and Ground State, and the season opener in my opinion is pretty great too, with Angel confronting Connor and putting him in his place, with the beginning of dark Wes' return to the fold, etc.

Especially with regard to the main story arc, I don't see these episodes as being relationship driven. The main arc episodes are really well done, dramatic, tension filled episodes to me. In my opinion, they're some of the best of Ats. For me, the season only begins to drop off a little bit after the beast is slain and Jasmine takes over the arc. I even like some of these episodes, but I can be objective enough to admit their faults. But the first half of the season, to about ep 15 or so? Great stuff in my opinion. For me it sustains my attention with each re-watch.

Once again, I've never thought of the quality of the various relationships as detracting from the show. To me it's just background stuff. And also, it doesn't do harm to the characters in the way that s6 Buffy for example does harm to its characters. There is a lot of angst and discontent, but nothing distracting or detrimental to the show.

And I also want to say that I personally kind of liked the relationship conflict too. The Wes, Fred and Gunn drama added interesting complexity to the Fang Gang dynamic. Lilah and Wes helped develop Wes from his post tragic fall out and sort of brought out all his dark angles, but I thought that added to his character, not detracted from him. All in all, there are a few relationship squirm moments for me, but it's a good feeling squirm.

I'm super biased in favor of S4 in general though so I'm sure other people will debate these details with me, but I'm okay with that. I like S4 quite a bit
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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Beast and the dillema that he creates
What dilemma is that?
Once again, I've never thought of the quality of the various relationships as detracting from the show. To me it's just background stuff. And also, it doesn't do harm to the characters in the way that s6 Buffy for example does harm to its characters. There is a lot of angst and discontent, but nothing distracting or detrimental to the show.
I don't see how you can call the relationship drama background stuff. There is hardly anything else going on. Every situation that occurs is just another context for the characters to argue in.

And I do think it hurts the characters. Wesley is the only one who benefits. He is a sly opportunist, but at least, he is interesting. We get to see different sides to him, as opposed to everyone else who are suddenly flat as card board.

Gunn is reduced to an angry black man stereotype, who just shouts and postures meaninglessly.

Fred is unbelievably passive. She stands by as Fred and Wesley fight over her. She is unable to decide who, if any, she would rather be with. She does not tell Wesley to back off, she lets Wesley kiss her, she does not leave Gunn, but neither does she reassure him. She acts very similarly to evil!Cordelia.

Angel just doesn't do anything. Wesley becomes the only character on the show capable of taking action. And I don't get why Angel doesn't just give up on Cordelia after she sleeps with Connor. Kye-rumption or no, fighting with his own son over Cordelia is just beneath him. It's like Buffy in "Him," but she is under a spell.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Well, it may have wanted to be "Batman: The Series," but was still a WB series, and I would have to guess making pretty people kiss each other was heavily encouraged by the network. I also have to believe the show had relationship and romance writters, and they had to write something.
 

FaithLehane16

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Seasons 3 and 4 of Angel have became a very dark Bold and the Beautiful with the pointless love triangles.
 

AnthonyCordova

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What dilemma is that?
I'm speaking of the problem of The Beast: how to destroy him and how to avoid the apocalypse. During this whole portion of the arc the characters were too busy trying to find solutions for stopping the apocalypse for the relationship elements to become foreground. At least that was my perception of it. If memory serves me Fred even says as much in so many words, when she is arguing with Gunn about needing Wes' help being more important than private beef. These relationship points of conflict only begin to find resolution after Angelus comes back, because Angelus uses his knowledge of these issues as weapons of manipulation against them. But between this and the beginning of the season, those relationship conflicts are more or less suspended as they try and figure out how to stop an apocalypse.

I don't see how you can call the relationship drama background stuff. There is hardly anything else going on. Every situation that occurs is just another context for the characters to argue in.
In my opinion, actually quite a lot is going on. In the first 12-15 episodes, the gang has to find a way to bring Lorne back, they're searching first for Angel and than for Cordelia, Wes has yet to return to the fold and of course this takes awhile, Cordelia comes back but she's lost her memory so this also becomes an ordeal, the Beast comes and they have no idea how to stop him for multiple episodes, which leads directly to bringing back Angelus, getting Faith out of jail for help...the season seems really busy to me with events and action, so I have to admit that although I try to appreciate multiple perspectives I don't know where to meet you half way here. All of the stuff I mentioned seemed like very urgent foreground stuff. For the most part, the relationship stuff fills in the spaces in between events, and stay more or less unresolved until some time after the return of Angelus. At least that's how I recall everything.

And I do think it hurts the characters. Wesley is the only one who benefits. He is a sly opportunist, but at least, he is interesting. We get to see different sides to him, as opposed to everyone else who are suddenly flat as card board.
From my point of view I find it hard to understand how everyone becomes flat as you say. They are dealing with new interpersonal struggles, that I agree with you, but it's not as if they change in any fundamental way. Their orientations shift here and there but to me they are still essentially the same people. Fred struggles to deal with her feelings for both Wes and Gunn. Maybe part of our disagreement (I'm just speculating of course) is that I personally think it is a mistake to assume Fred didn't ever have feelings for Wes. She always liked him, at the very least as a close friend, but I also think there was latent sexual energy between them too. The season put her in a position where she stood in between Wes and Gunn, and her passivity as you put it is her indecision to play a favorite between two people she cares deeply for. She's genuinely torn and in her confusion and ambivalence she arrives at the decision to act in a way that puts the group first. I don't see all of that as being flat or even passive as you said. To simply call it passive doesn't sit right with me. She's struggling with conflicting feelings, and how those feelings should fit within her larger responsibilities to the group. It seems to me she made the decision to put the group first while she figured out her feelings along the way. Along the way Gunn and Wes occasionally pushed at her from both sides, true enough. But her decision making didn't seem passive at all. She did after all continue to make concrete decisions and actions despite the tug of war.

Gunn is reduced to an angry black man stereotype, who just shouts and postures meaninglessly.
I have a difference of opinion here too. I don't really see Gunn as having changed in any fundamental way, similar to my feelings about many of the other characters. Wes is an exception. Wes from Buffy S3 and Wes in Angel S4 and S5 is what I would call fundamentally different. Gunn doesn't display anything in S4 that we haven't already seen from him before, on many occasions. So I want to say that first of all I deny that Gunn was reduced to an angry black man stereotype, and that his sometimes blunt way with words and occasional attitude is something that we as viewers are already familiar with. He was just as much distrustful at times of Angel in the past as he is here in S4 with Wes; he's also shown impatience and a certain bluntness toward Angel in the past as he showed in S4 toward Wes also. As far as Gunn being reduced to some angry black man caricature, I don't see it. Gunn has always been blunt and occasionally impatient and curt with words. But to me, those features of his personality could be easily enough explained by reference to the difficult street life he lived before joining Angel investigations. These personality features often meant the difference between death and survival for him, so of course he manifests these personality traits now and again. But he also displayed more than his share of genuine humanity along the way in S4. He showed a soft side on many occasions: just look at his many enthusiastic and heart-felt displays of support of Fred's published Physics article in the beginning of Supersymmetry, as just one of many examples. I interpret the evidence for Gunn being reduced to a stereotype more as added frustration from his personal relationships; but to me all of this was excusable and understandable. There were genuine human and story reasons for him to feel the way he did in S4. Therefore I think his emotional displays in S4 displayed human sides and not simply a reduction to crude stereotype.

Angel just doesn't do anything...And I don't get why Angel doesn't just give up on Cordelia after she sleeps with Connor. Kye-rumption or no, fighting with his own son over Cordelia is just beneath him. It's like Buffy in "Him," but she is under a spell.
Angel doesn't give up on Cordelia because he has developed amorous feelings for her. This is confirmed as early as the S4 opener, when Angel hallucinates several times, and each time he exchanged signals of intimacy with her. I understand that many people don't really care for Cangel as a ship, which is fine. People are entitled to their feelings about it. A lot of people aren't convinced it happened in a believable way. But textually speaking, I think there have been more than enough signals that Angel had feelings for her along the way. So from this point of view I think it is fair that Angel doesn't simply drop his feelings of affection for her. You can't simply will such feelings to go away. So those feelings ran their course in S4. On the other hand I actually do agree with you that Angel feeling hostility toward Connor (over Cordelia) was petty petty, but it was right around this point in S4 when the train begun to run off the rails for me too. I definitely belong to the crowd that believes Cordelia's character was trashed by the end of S4. But just to repeat, I do think that Angel cared for Cordelia in a way more than simply as friends, and that this was brought to the attention of the audience at various points along the way. Therefore, Angel giving up on Cordelia wasn't really an option if the writers were going to try to maintain some degree of verisimilitude about it. But I agree that Cordy did a number of things that were out of character, and Angel was petty several times, but all of that was the initial groundwork for why the season would start to come apart later. Cordy's character assassination is what it is I guess.

Apart from Cordy though, I don't think any of the characters were really harmed because of anything in S4. I certainly don't think relationship issues were all there was to S4 (far from it). And I don't think that not a lot happened in the beginning of S4, or that the whole first half of the season was "irredeemable", as you put it. But now it's getting late and I need to get some sleep.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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At least that was my perception of it. If memory serves me Fred even says as much in so many words, when she is arguing with Gunn about needing Wes' help being more important than private beef.
It is true that the relationships remain "suspended" for a long time, just like everything else. The threat of the Beast is used to avoid resolution. However, the characters spend every minute scowling, shouting at each other or physically fighting.
n my opinion, actually quite a lot is going on. In the first 12-15 episodes, the gang has to find a way to bring Lorne back, they're searching first for Angel and than for Cordelia, Wes has yet to return to the fold and of course this takes awhile, Cordelia comes back but she's lost her memory so this also becomes an ordeal, the Beast comes and they have no idea how to stop him for multiple episodes, which leads directly to bringing back Angelus, getting Faith out of jail for help
But so many of these events are mere diversions. Take "Ground State" for example. They fail their mission. Angel concludes that Cordelia is fine, when she is not. But then Cordelia shows up at the end of the next episode anyway.

But that is not the worst of it. The episode is not about Cordelia. It is just a diversionary Ocean's 11 romp with Gwen Raiden as the focus. It does very little to further the story. Compare it with "Bargaining" which is all about the Scoobies grieving and trying to cope after Buffy died and then Buffy returns at the end of the episode.

Cordeliea's faux memory loss is one of the strangest parts of Jasmine's plan. I guess it gives her an excuse for distancing herself from Angel and the group and getting close to Connor. But evil!Cordelia has such round-about ways of going about things. Simple plans are almost always better than complex ones, and I am sure Cordelia could have feigned an argument with Angel and befriended Connor without the hole amnesia business.

It feels like the writers are just biding time as they are trying to write the bigger story. They just throw in plot points that extend the plot rather than move it further. Magical beings that are already dead or episode-long dream sequences that tells us nothing new about the characters. "Awakening" serves a similar purpose to "Restless," but whereas "Restless" has a wealth of character development and thematic conflict from BtVS S4 and beyond to mine, "Awakening" shows that AtS S4 has been pretty shallow so far.
Maybe part of our disagreement (I'm just speculating of course) is that I personally think it is a mistake to assume Fred didn't ever have feelings for Wes. She always liked him, at the very least as a close friend, but I also think there was latent sexual energy between them too. The season put her in a position where she stood in between Wes and Gunn, and her passivity as you put it is her indecision to play a favorite between two people she cares deeply for. She's genuinely torn and in her confusion and ambivalence she arrives at the decision to act in a way that puts the group first.
If Fred wanted to put the group first, she would have made a decision on how to deal with Gunn and Wesley's fighting sooner rather than later. Instead, she makes no decision ... ever. It is Gunn who finally realises that it is time to just stop in one of his better moments in the season.

We haven't seen much proof that Fred is attracted to Wesley. When Angelus points out Wesley's crush for her, Fred brushes is off as a lie. And then she says this to Wesley afterwards: "Charles heard what Angelus said. [...] Yes, which is very sweet. There's nothing wrong with it." If this is how she feels, she should have told Wesley to back off and stop pursuing her so openly.

But if she has had feeling for Wesley this whole time and is just playing coy, then what on earth is she doing? Two people she pretends to care about are going to murder each other for her. It's not the time to be coy. She needs to address this somehow. The writers just made her this way to extend the drama.
So I want to say that first of all I deny that Gunn was reduced to an angry black man stereotype, and that his sometimes blunt way with words and occasional attitude is something that we as viewers are already familiar with.
Gunn does more than showing attitude and use blunt words in S4. He is a large man and his size to intimidate. And the dialogue is just embarrassingly on the nose.

"She's pretty brainy too. Maybe you two are kindred souls. Maybe that's why she went to you for help getting revenge on that Professor. Killing takes brains."

[...]

"Not all of us have muscle to fall back on." [Brings out cool sword]

Wesley may act horrible too, but he is the one who gets the girl, he does the most to help the group and he is not the one who accidentally knocks out Fred. Gunn is constantly told by others and even himself that he is just an idiot with muscles, and in this season, it is hard to disagree without bringing in evidence from the other seasons, because in S4, he is aggressive and rash almost the entire time.
But textually speaking, I think there have been more than enough signals that Angel had feelings for her along the way.
I can accept that Angel loves Cordelia. The show hammers that fact over our heads. However, when Cordelia sleeps with Connor, Angel should have just accepted defeat. How can anyone love someone who acts like Cordelia in S4? She's awful. Having your son as your rival in romance is just demeaning.
 

AnthonyCordova

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I respect your opinions WillowFromBuffy, I really do. Your posts are often very perceptive and I enjoy reading you. So please don't take this the wrong way but I have to be honest when I say I can't recall saying no so many times in response to a post, on a sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph basis. I thought for awhile on a response but in the end I decided against it. I'm trying to spare us both what I foresee as what will probably be a long sequence of responses because I really don't think it's going to lead anywhere or shift either one of our positions on it. I understand this kind of thing can be fun and educational to do anyway sometimes but I'm just not feeling up to it here. Being as busy as I am these days means I have to kind of choose where to invest my energy and which battles to fight. This one isn't it for me.

But anyway, I don't mean to offend, and I really do mean it when I say I like reading your posts. You're one of the people that have taught me things here and there since you've been here. Have a nice day. 🙂
 
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GraceK

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Wesley may act horrible too, but he is the one who gets the girl, he does the most to help the group and he is not the one who accidentally knocks out Fred. Gunn is constantly told by others and even himself that he is just an idiot with muscles, and in this season, it is hard to disagree without bringing in evidence from the other seasons, because in S4, he is aggressive and rash almost the entire time.
It’s really annoying because Wesely starts off the season literally saving Angels life, brings him back and asks for nothing in return and Gunn is immediately on the defensive with him. Wesley doesn’t pursue Fred at all first, they all keep coming to him. He only shows up unobtrusively at her lecture. It’s Gunn who comes to his house for her cure, and is also really rude about it, it’s Fred who comes to him for help with the professor, it’s Angel who visits him to say thank you , and it’s Lorne who tells him to come by for spin the bottle, and Gunn is instantly violent and aggressive with him so Wesley defends himself with that knife . And somehow Wesley is the asshole here?

He kisses Fred later but so what? At that point Gunn and him are no longer friends and Fred has her own agency. She certainly doesn’t seem to mind . I’ll never be on board the Wesely is a horrible person train except in season 3 when he pulls all that crap with Connor. And his karma was swift and just. He suffers for his lack of trust in his friends and his poor judgment almost more than any other character in this show suffers.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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At that point Gunn and him are no longer friends and Fred has her own agency.
Wesley has not really thought of Gunn as a friend since he tried sabotaging his relationship to Fred in S3, even if he did eventually give them his creepy big brother consent.

Does Fred really have agency in S4. It does not feel like it. She does not take responsibility for kissing Wesley, nor does she do anything to keep Wesley and Gunn from murdering each other. I mean, she does try to physically break up their fight, but after that, she does nothing to resolve the conflict.
Gunn is instantly violent and aggressive with him so Wesley defends himself with that knife . And somehow Wesley is the asshole here?
Gunn is really horrible in most of S4 and very different from the calm and confident person we see in other seasons. But Wesley loves being all George Zimmerman with his hidden sword. They made Gunn awful, so Welsey would look good by comparison. The result is that they are both now awful.
He suffers for his lack of trust in his friends and his poor judgment almost more than any other character in this show suffers.
Yes, it is annoying that Fred or Cordelia do not reach out to him after he gets his voice back. Or even Gunn, who I believe defends him to the group, even if he has reason to wish him gone.

And I am not even sure if Wesley's judgement was poor. He does check with the hamburger man before he acts. Angel believes the prophecy that foretells Buffy's death, and it would have cost her her life if Xander had not intervened.
 

GraceK

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But Wesley loves being all George Zimmerman with his hidden sword.
That’s a really gross comparison. He has a hidden sword because he’s been training other humans to demon fight, he’s been out there demon fighting himself, and they all have been using weapons like that since the series started. Gunn himself used hidden stakes under his sleeves and so has Angel. Comparing Wesley to a racist, domestic abuser who stalked a teenager and gunned him down in the street for being black ( and then sold that same gun online for profit and has been arrested numerous times for assault ever since) is so completely out of left field in this conversation I’m disappointed in you. Wesley took a bullet for Gunn and his friends in season 2.
Does Fred really have agency in S4. It does not feel like it. She does not take responsibility for kissing Wesley, nor does she do anything to keep Wesley and Gunn from murdering each other. I mean, she does try to physically break up their fight, but after that, she does nothing to resolve the conflict.
Yes she has agency. You may not agree with her choices but those are still her choices. She’s certainly not taken advantage of by Wesely in anyway. And when I say agency, I mean she’s a grown woman who can kiss who she wants and is not owned by any one.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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That’s a really gross comparison.
Is it really? I am not questioning Wesley's licence to carry such a sword. As long as he and Gunn use those types of weapons against vampires, then that is fine by me.

But in the scene in question, Gunn comes up in Wes's face with an implied threat of a beat down. Wes answers by standing his ground and shoving a sword up into Gunn's face. That is not self defence. I would never have survived my teens or early twenties if I acted like Wesley every time some schmuck started posturing in front of me. If you play the game of intimidation, you will eventually meet someone who knocks your teeth out ... or worse ... or you could be the one hurting someone else, especially if you are the type of person to pull out a knife during an unnecessary confrontation.

Wesley does eventually end up stabbing Gunn, but then he is neither acting in self defence or standing his ground, but he is punishing Gunn for his role in Fred getting infected. Later, he claims that he knew exactly how much damage the scalpel would make, which is a pretty bold claim, and that he merely wanted to hospitalise Gunn to teach him a lesson or something.

It is not like this sort of behaviour does not have precedent in the Buffyverse. It is exactly the type of thing that happened between Angel and Riley. Two idiots with a desperate desire to hurt each other. I don't expect Fred to be quite as assertive as Buffy was, but I don't think she has an excuse for her complete passivity. It is not like she is afraid Gunn or Wesley will hurt her, because if so, that is not communicated very well.
Yes she has agency. You may not agree with her choices but those are still her choices. She’s certainly not taken advantage of by Wesely in anyway. And when I say agency, I mean she’s a grown woman who can kiss who she wants and is not owned by any one.
People with agency acts. Fred merely reacts, and she hardly does that. Fred does not kiss Wesley. She lets Wesley kiss her. She takes no responsibility for it. She knows that unless she tells Gunn or Wesley or both to back off, they may hurt each other.
Wesley took a bullet for Gunn and his friends in season 2.
I know, but by season 4, it is like all that deep history is just washed away.
I’m disappointed in you.

Lol. I thought you'd know better.
 

GraceK

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But in the scene in question, Gunn comes up in Wes's face with an implied threat of a beat down. Wes answers by standing his ground and shoving a sword up into Gunn's face. That is not self defence. I would never have survived my teens or early twenties if I acted like Wesley every time some schmuck started posturing in front of me. If you play the game of intimidation, you will eventually meet someone who knocks your teeth out ... or worse ... or you could be the one hurting someone else, especially if you are the type of person to pull out a knife during an unnecessary confrontation.
It is completely a gross comparison. Standing your ground laws when used correctly can in fact save your life and there is nothing wrong with defending yourself. You have a bias against Wesely which you admitted too, and you don’t agree with what he does to Gunn in season 5, so save your beef with him for that situation. But comparing Wesely to a racist asshole who, again, was actually not Standing his ground, but was following an unarmed black teenager, shot him dead against police orders, sold his murder weapon to another racist online, and has since been arrested for domestic battery, assault, and has made racist threats to Jay z like a crazy person, is a completely unfounded accusation. It’s the same sort of nonsense those extreme right wingers throw out when they say We are all coming for their guns and hamburgers. I mean come on. Wesely may have over reacted by drawing his sword, but Gunn was also using his size and significant strength to threaten him, which he had done all season and never expected Wesley to actually do anything about. They were both metaphorically dick swinging, which is also used again comically when they lose their memories and the same sword pops out .
 

GraceK

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People with agency acts. Fred merely reacts, and she hardly does that. Fred does not kiss Wesley. She lets Wesley kiss her. She takes no responsibility for it. She knows that unless she tells Gunn or Wesley or both to back off, they may hurt each other.
Yeah well I think Fred’s a dipsh*t in season 4 personally. But I don't think Wesley forced himself on her in anyway. I mean she has a agency in a sense that she could kiss whoever she wants and if she wants to be a passive bystander in her own life that’s her problem. Not Wesley’s . He certainly didn’t take advantage of her. She went to him numerous times and treated Gunn terribly.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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It is completely a gross comparison. Standing your ground laws when used correctly can in fact save your life and there is nothing wrong with defending yourself.
Running away can save your life. Self defence should be a last resort. Wesley chooses to escalate the situation. He wants Fred and Gunn to break up, so he has no interesting in mending his friendship with Gunn.
You have a bias against Wesely which you admitted too, and you don’t agree with what he does to Gunn in season 5, so save your beef with him for that situation.
If I have a bias against Wesley, I don't think I have admitted to it. He is my favourite character in S4, bar Faith, but she is only in it three episodes or so.

Why would I have a bias against Wesley? He is easily the character on AtS I have the most in common with.
I mean come on. Wesely may have over reacted by drawing his sword, but Gunn was also using his size and significant strength to threaten him, which he had done all season and never expected Wesley to actually do anything about.
Like I have been saying in this thread and many times before, I hate the way Gunn acts in this season. It's such a disconnect to season 5, when Wesley hints he may make a move on Fred and Gunn just shrugs and laughs.
Yeah well I think Fred’s a dipsh*t in season 4 personally. But I don't think Wesley forced himself on her in anyway. I mean she has a agency in a sense that she could kiss whoever she wants and if she wants to be a passive bystander in her own life that’s her problem. Not Wesley’s . He certainly didn’t take advantage of her. She went to him numerous times and treated Gunn terribly.
Then we are very much in agreement. Of course, as a person, she has agency, but as a fictional character, we don't see her take charge of the situation or take responsibility for her actions. She did not seem to go to speak with Wesley with the intention of kissing him, but when he leans in to kiss her, she does not pull back.

It is very hard for me to get into Fred's head in this season, and I think that is the main problem for me. Her motives and intentions are not very clear.
 

GraceK

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Running away can save your life. Self defence should be a last resort.
That’s exactly why invoking George Zimmerman was a gross comparison. Neither situation with Wesely in anyway bears any resemblance at all except for the fact that Stand your ground was the defense Zimmerman used at trial. To murder someone. Which also has no bearing in the Angel universe. Your using that law as another way to link it to your argument. George Zimmerman also wasn’t defending himself. I mean seriously, this whole Zimmerman thing has as much to do with Wesley and Gunn as Cookies have to do with Ghosts.

its not even that your argument is flawed or wrong even if we disagree. I just think your invoking the wrong person and making an extreme comparison to prove your point . It’s unnecessary in this case.
If I have a bias against Wesley, I don't think I have admitted to it. He is my favourite character in S4, bar Faith, but she is only in it three episodes or so.
I think I was wrong here and am thinking of someone else 😂 I have defended him so many times to so many people I get confused. My apologies.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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That’s exactly why invoking George Zimmerman was a gross comparison. Neither situation with Wesely in anyway bears any resemblance at all except for the fact that Stand your ground was the defense Zimmerman used at trial. To murder someone. Which also has no bearing in the Angel universe. Your using that law as another way to link it to your argument. George Zimmerman also wasn’t defending himself. I mean seriously, this whole Zimmerman thing has as much to do with Wesley and Gunn as Cookies have to do with Ghosts.

its not even that your argument is flawed or wrong even if we disagree. I just think your invoking the wrong person and making an extreme comparison to prove your point . It’s unnecessary in this case
Sure, it is an extreme comparison ... and quite tasteless. But I am really bothered by what Wesley is doing here. I know so many people who believe that you are justified to use violence to protect your dignity and not just your life. People do hurt each other for the stupidest of reasons. Gunn may be the instigator in "Spin the Bottle" and "Soulless," but he is not a victim simply defending himself. He is looking for a fight, he would just rather not be seen as the one to start it.

And there is a racial element to this conflict. Angelus and Lilah are the only ones to point it out explicitly, but even Wesley calls himself brain-y as opposed to Gunn's muscle. Gunn is not an idiot. He ran a gang of vigilantes and crafts weapons that catapults stakes. It is only his race, class and education that could distinguish Wesley as more brain-y than Gunn. The show implies that Wesley and Fred belong together because they are white and educated, and the characters seem to largely agree.
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
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And there is a racial element to this conflict. Angelus and Lilah are the only ones to point it out explicitly, but even Wesley calls himself brain-y as opposed to Gunn's muscle. Gunn is not an idiot. He ran a gang of vigilantes and crafts weapons that catapults stakes. It is only his race, class and education that could distinguish Wesley as more brain-y than Gunn. The show implies that Wesley and Fred belong together because they are white and educated, and the characters seem to largely agree.
If there is a racial element to this conflict, it is not Wesley’s fault. If Gunn feels insecure that is on him. Wesley isn’t going around making racist remarks. You literally point out the shows two villainous characters that are the only ones who say anything about race . Lilah who is jealous of Fred and wants Wesley for herself, who is also evil and thrives on conflict, and Angelus who is a soulless, sadistic evil shit stirrer. And who actually I don’t even think is racist, he’s just picking up on the insecurities the air. No other characters imply that Fred and Wesely belong together because they are both white and educated. The only other two women Wesely has been interested in have been bosomy , gregarious bombshells. Cordelia and Virginia are has far from Fred as possible and he deeply cared about Virginia. Up until Fred , rich classy bosomy types seemed to fit his bill, which makes sense given his upbringing. Even Lilah, educated, classy and aggressive fits the profile. Fred is the anomaly.

It seems like if you prefer Fred and Gunn as a ship , it’s easy to blame the race factor as a reason it ended. It must be racism and the white writers fault!!! That’s bull. Maybe they just didn’t work as a couple? I thought they sucked from the beginning and never bought their chemistry. All they did was eat waffles and she was so cutesy with him it was sickening. It was like he had a eating fetish with skinny girls and she was like a child. They weren’t even together that long before she was nagging him and yelling at him and treating like crap. And the triangle was set up immediately cause Wesley was interested in her right away, at the same time Cangel was developing. It was done on purpose for tension and to drive the Connor storyline, not to show that Oh look, the two white brains deserve each other over the black muscle. It’s your basic dramatic plot of a new girl is introduced and the other male leads like her, drama ensues! Friendships are tested! Babies gets kidnapped!

Gunn was always smart. Fred was a genius and was more brilliant than the both of them. And Wesley was more educated and book smart. So? He certainly wasn’t street smart like Gunn. Wasn’t as strong as Gunn. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and if I have a problem it’s that Gunn completely abandoned his other friends and immersed himself so completely with Angel and his gang and let his insecurities eat at him and stopped remembering just how smart and capable he is. Gwen showed him that in season 4 when they go on mission and he kicks serious ass.

Fred and Wesely were always gonna get together. And it wasn’t because they are white and educated, it’s because clearly they wanted angst for Wesley and eventually a girlfriend and they also have better chemistry. Gunn should have been with Cordelia or Gwen. Fred didn’t appreciate him.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I'd pick Gwen over Cordelia.
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
If you want to stick a bias on me, you should go with my love for Wes and Lilah, otherwise you're just gonna keep guessing until you hit the mark.
 
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