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The true flowering of Spuffy in S6

Discussion in 'Season 6' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    I wouldn't say he was intrigued by her friends and family in School Hard, per se. I think he was more intrigued by what Angel could see in her, what power she had over him to turn him into an Uncle Tom. Then as he started to do surveillance on her, he started to fall under her sway as well. But again, it was more on the subconscious level at that time. Buffy is what drove Spike and Dru apart in season 3.
     
  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Well, that could be one way of looking at it; like Spike thinks that Buffy turned Angel somehow.
    But then again he must realize that Angel got turned 'soft' a hundred years ago or so. That had nothing to do with Buffy. Spike doesn't understand what having a soul means, but he does understand that it is significant in a way, he just doesn't know the how.

    But in 'Lover's Walk' Spike has nothing but contempt for Buffy and Angel's love. He describes them as having 'googley eyes' and forgetting that last time they wanted to kill each other.
    It'sa shown- even before S6- that human love and vampire love are undementally different in its thinking. Spike doesn't understand Buffy and Angel or what feeling they have for each other. He can't because vampires lack the mechanics to understand selfless love. They just think of it as 'weak'.

    It's the fatal flaw of Spuffy; how does an evil creature fall in love with a good, decent person when they share none of the same values? They can't.
    Spike can obsess over Buffy; he can't kill her and all his evil thoughts are subject to shock therapy, he can lust after her but he can't relate to her on any substative level. His love is shallow and unreal. Buffy said it herself; Spike wanted Buffy because she was unattainable, it was that simple.
     
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  3. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    Well, but that whole backstory aspect came later. Spike never mentioned it, he just said Angel was housebroken by not eating humans. It's implied that the last time Spike saw Angel he was 'normal' and not housebroken or the ruse that Angel was playing would not have made any sense at all.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2017 ---
    Exactly. That's where the contempt came from. That's why Dru left him and that's why when next you see Spike he has a Buffy-lite in Harmony.
     
  4. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    But this is the S5 retcon. Funny how all these retcons start in S5 with the appearance of Dawn and the fake memories. Harmony was more convenient and helpful to his agenda than any Buffy-lite replacement IMO.

    Spike was 200% devoted to Dru in S2. There was NOTHING for Buffy except intrigue for a slayer. Which is normal for Spike (slayer of slayers) and nothing new except that this slayer keeps kicking his ass, largely due to her support system, so it's more personal than usual. The sexual play is standard MO for vampires with all their pray/kill, so that's nothing unique to Spike or Spuffy to indicate something deeper. And Dru doesn't leave him because Spike suddenly has feelings for Buffy, as the S5 retcon suggests. Spike explains it to us in 'Lovers Walk'. Dru left him because he was less of a demon by striking a deal with the good guys. The only way in which that is Buffy related is because she was the one he made the deal with.

    Of course he doesn't get it. I mean how many times does Buffy in S6 say he doesn't get it? LOADS. And it's true. He doesn't really get her depression beyond some vague darkness, he doesn't get why being with him is killing her and he doesn't get why she can't love him. The answer is really rather simple though. Because as much as the show and the fans want to attribute humanity to Spike, he literally lacks the soul to truly understand what Buffy is going through.
     
    GraceK: Yes yes yes! Thank you ! :)
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  5. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    It wasn't a S5 retcon and it had nothing to do with Dawn. What would Dawn have to do with it? I mean that honestly, I don't recall that at all.

    That is what Spike said, yes, but Spike is also pretty much a pathological liar and never likes to take the blame. The fact he says he is going to torture her again proves that he lost his 'mojo' and thought that may help him reclaim it. Clearly it didn't work and he shows up next with short hot blonde who, somewhat, resembles Buffy. So why did he lose his mojo and lose Dru? His encounter with Buffy.
     
  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Because the whole flashback with Dru/Spike and Dru leaving him because she can see he has feelings for Buffy is in S5. The same Season where we get Spike flashbacks where he is suddenly the honorable fighter, looking for fair 1 on 1 challenges with the biggest fighters around (slayers). Totally contradicting S2 and even S4 Spike who exploited any and all advantages (henchmen, weakness spells, gem of amara, cadre of vampires, judge etc.) to win.

    Dawn herself has nothing to do with it. However I find it interesting how so many character changes and retcons begin when the Dawnverse takes off.

    But what he did IS take the blame. He said he went soft because of the deal so she left him. That's him right there saying it's his fault. Hence...

    He needs to act like a true demon again, that's his solution.

    How does Harmony resemble Buffy? Like seriously? The bottle blonde hair color? Beyond that there is nothing. And yes his DEAL with Buffy is what made him lose it from Dru's POV, not any feelings for Buffy on his part.
     
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  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    "Because the whole flashback with Dru/Spike and Dru leaving him because she can see he has feelings for Buffy is in S5." I honestly have NO recollection of this at all! hahaha... wow. What episode was it?

    I thought he said that Dru said he went soft and then she left him. That's why he was pissy at Buffy and Angel upon his return, because he saw them as being 'soft' as well. That's why there was so much disdain.

    upload_2017-3-26_11-45-32.png

    How does she NOT look like Buffy? The hair, the clothes, the posture. I always thought Harmony was very Buffyish.. but
    [​IMG]
    Maybe it's just me.
     
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  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    How many appearances does Dru have post S2? There isn't much there. And in S5 there is only so many she is in.

    He admitted he wasn't demon enough for her anymore which is why he says 'gotta be the man I was, the man she loved'. If it wasn't his fault why does he need to change into being a certain way?

    I'm sorry but it's California. The blonde hair (as SMG will tell you) is California. Might as well say that the only noticeable female in Spike's pack in S2 resembles Buffy, since she was blonde. Or you could confuse Buffy with Sunday, who was also blonde. And again it's the California attitude, so chances are any vampire Spike picks up who is from California will be blonde and Buffy-ish. And Harmony might resemble Spordelia but wasn't it argued in this very thread how much Spike saw the real Buffy in S2 already after only meeting her a couple of times. Can't have it both ways. Because then he'd know Harmony and Buffy are nothing alike so Harmony being a Buffy replacement makes even less sense.
     
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  9. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Absolutely. Spuffy didn't begin in season 2 because at that point in time Spike wasn't even supposed to survive season 2. If Spuffy started anywhere, it would've been season 4 where Spike became a regular then you had the episode "Something Blue".
     
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  10. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    But if Spike is supposed to be so loyal in love and he was supposedly in love with Buffy, and couldn't wait to get back to Buffy when he became corporeal again in Angel, why was the first thing he did was have sex with Harmony? That doesn't seem very loyal does it? And he even had a soul then to boot.
     
  11. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I always saw the vampires as kind of a version of lions. They have a hierarchy, they tend to live in groups (usually with a dominant male), they stalk their prey before pouncing etc. You even hear a purring noise from Spike when Drusilla first enters the scene in "School Hard". Spike challenges the hench-vampires to "step on up", he is essentially asserting his dominance.

    I disagree. He says something along the lines of "A slayer with family and friends- that certainly wasn't in the brochure". Spike (lion) was hunting Buffy (young wildebeest), he'd pounced and was ready to make his kill when Joyce "mother wildebeest) attacked him in order to protect her child. Spike is used to slayers being alone, not having back up, so he was caught by surprise and left to form a new plan of attack regarding the information he'd just learned.

    Agreed. All of Spike's actions in season 2 were based around Drusilla. From trying to make her better at the beginning of the season to trying to keep her away from Angelus at the end of the season.

    That flashback was obviously written retroactively because Drusilla's reason for leaving Spike did not match the reason given in "Lover's Walk".


    That's how it went down. He blamed Buffy and Angel for the break up because their actions forced him to help save the world and Dru didn't like that, hence his revelation at the end of "I just need to be the man I used to be. The man she loved". That line works if Dru did indeed leave him because she thought he'd gone soft and he only needs to prove to her that he is still his badass self. The line doesn't work if Dru left Spike because of his unknown feelings for Buffy as he can't prove he's still the man he used to be. That flashback was clearly a retroactively written flashback to serve Spuffy.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You can see how Harmony was a precursor to the Buffybot.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2017 ---
    He'd just got his body back and wanted to use it/make sure everything was in working order. Also, hadn't he decided at that point to let Buffy "go" and live her life without him. If so, then he was single and he obviously had good sex with Harmony since that was the only thing he kept her around for when they were a couple.
     
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  12. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    No. That wasn't until later in the season.
     
  13. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Ok wow. Now that is an uncanny resemblance. But I gotta say, that means even by S5 Spike still hasn't got a clue about Buffy as a person if this is how he sees her. I mean Harmony is the Buffybot in S4 and in S5 Spike still has this version of Buffy in his head. Which is very far removed from reality. So much for Spike 'getting' Buffy as far back as S2.
     
  14. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    I never claimed it reality. I said from the start it was subconscious. He was, before he even recognized it himself, infatuated with Buffy. Infatuation is not based upon reality but someone's idolized version of another. The infatuation with Buffy began in S2. This is fact and witnessed on screen. So, Spuffy, in it's earliest form began in S2.
     
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  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I disagree. At best, you could say that Spike's OBSESSION with Buffy started in season 2 (since he was so focussed on killing her. She was supposed to be his third slayer kill) but his infatuation with her didn't start until season 4 at the earliest.
     
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  16. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    I would reverse that and agree. S2 was the infatuation and S4 began the obsession. I don't see anything to suggest obsession in season 2. His feelings are fleeting, and that is what an infatuation is- fleeting.
     
  17. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    But if his feelings for her were fleeting, then how can you say he had any real romantic interest in her at all? He wanted to kill her in "School Hard" but in "What's my Line part 1", he's complaining that she's there buggering up his plans every time he turns around. I guess you could say he was infatuated with the idea of killing her but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he was infatuated with her.
     
  18. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    Never once did I say he had romantic interest. He didn't "love" Buffy, he didn't want to shag Buffy, he just had an infatuation with her that grew into more. Love affairs all start somewhere and most do not start with romantic interest, they grow into that. But alas, they all start somewhere and S2 was the start of Spuffy. Any sexual feelings or attraction, as I stated, were subconscious, but when looking upon the following episodes and seasons, you can see they started right there in season 2. I don't necessarily subscribe to the School Hard theory, but certainly by Halloween, his infatuation was full bore. An infatuation which would turn into obsession that would turn into devotion and an evil vampire's equivalent to love in season 5.
     
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  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    See, to me, "Infatuation" means you fancy someone. I don't believe Spike fancied Buffy in season 2. At the time of the writing of season 2, Spike was originally supposed to be killed off, therefore why would the writers waste time pretending that he fancied Buffy when they were going to get rid of him anyway. Later seasons' development makes retroactive changes to the prior seasons eg In "Lover's Walk" Dru broke up with Spike because she'd thought he'd gone soft yet season 5 changed that to she broke up with him because of his unrealised feelings for Buffy.

    Spike didn't become a regular until season 4. The decision to bring Spike back wasn't made until after "Lover's Walk" so why would the writers waste time having Spike develop an "infatuation" with Buffy in season 2 when, at that point in time, Spike wasn't sticking around?
     
  20. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole My lines are mostly filler

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    Black Thorn
    You can be infatuated with a sport, infatuated with a TV show, infatuated with a book series. It doesn't mean that you fancy someone.

    I never said they did. I never once said that. I said taking the whole thing into context when you look back you can see it. The writers never meant it. They never wrote it that way (although JM said he played as though Spike had a sexual interest with Buffy) I never once said they wrote that into the season. I merely said, after watching the whole thing play out, you can go back and watch S2 again and see "the true flowering of Spuffy"

    If his watching the video over and over again of Buffy in Halloween was not infatuation, then what was it? That is a classic example of his infatuation with her.