Unhealthiest Relationships, And Healthiest Relationships!

[Xochiquetzal]

But likewise we aren't shown anything that calls into question that he attraction and relationship with Oz was lacking whilst there some that Willow has attraction to some men. It makes more sense to me from what I'm watching that Willow is a bisexual with a preference for women than that she's gay who went with men because of societal pressure. I think you're projecting and I'm sure that happens to some people but sexual orientation is an arc with a lot variation in it. Sometimes people who think they're het find someone of their own gender who they click with and/or who does it for them and sometimes the opposite happens. Love and sex are complicated things sometimes more than we realise ourselves.

Okay, so you think Willow was confused because she didn't understand the Kinsey scale, I think it's more likely that she had no intention of ever dating males again once she came out as a gay woman. Since the Kinsey scale is not mentioned and no character from BTVS ever mentions where they lie on a sexual spectrum we'll never know what they think about that individually, or whether it's even relevant in their universe. I don't recall any of them mentioning Chile Rellanos, either, it's possible Riley formed an addiction to them and Sam was simply his handler masquerading as his wife to keep him from eating delicious Mexican food when they came back to Sunnydale. It's never stated and Riley could have been unwilling to go into detail about hot peppers which prevented him from having an on screen discussion of the truth and leaving us with his plausible, simple, but ultimately unsatisfying, explanation.

 

[Puppet]

I don't recall any of them mentioning Chile Rellanos, either, it's possible Riley formed an addiction to them and Sam was simply his handler masquerading as his wife to keep him from eating delicious Mexican food when they came back to Sunnydale. It's never stated and Riley could have been unwilling to go into detail about hot peppers which prevented him from having an on screen discussion of the truth and leaving us with his plausible, simple, but ultimately unsatisfying, explanation.

And you have every right to head-canon that Riley has an obsession for delicious Mexican food, just as I head-canon Willow as a bisexual woman. That's the entire point, imo, of what you and others have been discussing recently.

 

[Dora]

Most unhealthy Spikes obsession with the slayer
From wanting to kill her and when the chip put a end to that, to just wanting her , he stole her underwear , made a sex doll of her , a shrine , persistently stalked her ,. took advantage of her mental illness to sexually abuse her knowing full well what had happen to her in S6 and playing on her feelings in S7 isolating her from the other scoobies
Next is Angel
He was supposed to look after Buffy , he was after all 240 years old with all life's experiences that that brings she is a 15 year old child , on her 17th birthday she is in his bed ,to which he takes advantage , he see the error of what they are doing and walks away from Buffy at the end of S3 , no doubt there are body guards the world over that has feelings in some way or another for the people they are there to protect , I wonder how many are jumping their clients bones and especially when that client is a child
3rd on my list is Willows obsession with Xander
She was mopping around after him from the off , I wonder if Buffy would have dated Xander but she knew Willow wanted him and then not got romantically involved with Angel . Willows obcession basically finished Xander and Corby
4th was Xander being in love with Buffy
What did that poor boy have to do , what must he have felt ? what is wrong with me , he wanted Buffy from day one , he had to watch while she first went with Angel , Parkers one night stand , Riley who Xander did try to keep Buffy and Riley together , to Spike , he was there for Buffy always without any super powers

Healthiest
Buffy and Riley he was the only real boyfriend Buffy had
Xander and Corby a fun relationship
Anya and Xander they were in love
Willow and Tara until S6

 

[katmobile]

Okay, so you think Willow was confused because she didn't understand the Kinsey scale, I think it's more likely that she had no intention of ever dating males again once she came out as a gay woman. Since the Kinsey scale is not mentioned and no character from BTVS ever mentions where they lie on a sexual spectrum we'll never know what they think about that individually, or whether it's even relevant in their universe. I don't recall any of them mentioning Chile Rellanos, either, it's possible Riley formed an addiction to them and Sam was simply his handler masquerading as his wife to keep him from eating delicious Mexican food when they came back to Sunnydale. It's never stated and Riley could have been unwilling to go into detail about hot peppers which prevented him from having an on screen discussion of the truth and leaving us with his plausible, simple, but ultimately unsatisfying, explanation.

Sigh....I think Willow has internalised messages that bisexuality is decadent which were the reasons she wasn't depicted as bi at the time. Joss had enough trouble depicting a lesbian couple with the network then and even today explicitly stating a character is bi doesn't seem to happening. See Rachel's video in Willow's sexuality for how she talks about how the main protagonist of Orange is the New Black is probably bi but isn't ID'ed as such. Willow probably isn't aware of the Kinsey scale I wasn't until I started listening to Chipperish media's Still Dead series. It's a better representation of sexual orientation than a three point definition - I suppose I see it as 180 degree arc between two popular extremes but society pushes you towards heterosexuality and then if that's not possible towards true homosexuality. The truth is probably more nuanced and people at both ends fear conversion so perputuate the myth. I see Willow had loving and most great relationships with two lovely people - one was a man, one was a woman. I think if she wants ID as gay and just date women that's fine and her choice but I think in actuality she's attracted to both genders just probably more to women. I guess I feel to interpret her as gay denies her feelings for Oz which feel were real and it is entirely in character for her to rationalise that she's only attracted to women to simplify her worldview on this. As Rachel points out she's still under the LGBTQ+ banner and not being forced to suppress her sexuality however way you see her - whether she's a B or a L.

 

[Xochiquetzal]

And you have every right to head-canon that Riley has an obsession for delicious Mexican food, just as I head-canon Willow as a bisexual woman. That's the entire point, imo, of what you and others have been discussing recently.

Something being a headcanon doesn't make it a valid interpretation. I've read a massive amount of fanfics where authors were seamlessly able to insert their headcanon into the structure of the show, they're all very entertaining (and often help make problematic aspects of the show more palatable,) but it doesn't matter if a more delightful explanation can be worked in, if a simple and straightforward explanation has been given on the show, that's the valid interpretation. The possibility that Willow is lying about being gay or confused about her sexuality is not presented to us, we are only shown Willow being forthright and assured about that once she realizes she's gay, something she had either not accepted, or not considered before she was a grownup.

 

[Puppet]

Something being a headcanon doesn't make it a valid interpretation. I've read a massive amount of fanfics where authors were seamlessly able to insert their headcanon into the structure of the show, they're all very entertaining (and often help make problematic aspects of the show more palatable,) but it doesn't matter if a more delightful explanation can be worked in, if a simple and straightforward explanation has been given on the show, that's the valid interpretation. The possibility that Willow is lying about being gay or confused about her sexuality is not presented to us, we are only shown Willow being forthright and assured about that once she realizes she's gay, something she had either not accepted, or not considered before she was a grownup.

No one said she was lying about being gay, nor did anyone say that she is confused. Rach, in fact, went out of her way to present you with plenty of genuine reasons why gay could still mean bisexual, but clearly you are set on seeing things your way. That's fine, we'll end it here, we will never agree on this.

 

[katmobile]

Something being a headcanon doesn't make it a valid interpretation. I've read a massive amount of fanfics where authors were seamlessly able to insert their headcanon into the structure of the show, they're all very entertaining (and often help make problematic aspects of the show more palatable,) but it doesn't matter if a more delightful explanation can be worked in, if a simple and straightforward explanation has been given on the show, that's the valid interpretation. The possibility that Willow is lying about being gay or confused about her sexuality is not presented to us, we are only shown Willow being forthright and assured about that once she realizes she's gay, something she had either not accepted, or not considered before she was a grownup.

Oversimplification is not lying or delusion but I'm not bothered enough about it to keep lying.

 

[Xochiquetzal]

No one said she was lying about being gay, nor did anyone say that she is confused. Rach, in fact, went out of her way to present you with plenty of genuine reasons why gay could still mean bisexual, but clearly you are set on seeing things your way. That's fine, we'll end it here, we will never agree on this.

LOL! Genuine research? She told an anecdote, a meaningless story unless she genuinely has links to scholars collecting hundreds or even thousands of those stories from a cross section of US society where men and women claim to be gay, but the researcher is able to identify an underage opposite sex relationship they had which really makes them bisexual (in the so-called-gay-really-bi person's own opinion of course because they have to not be lying or mistaken about being gay, but we do have to anecdotally prove that they actually mean bi.)

 

[Puppet]

LOL! Genuine research? She told an anecdote, a meaningless story unless she genuinely has links to scholars collecting hundreds or even thousands of those stories from a cross section of US society where men and women claim to be gay, but the researcher is able to identify an underage opposite sex relationship they had which really makes them bisexual (in the so-called-gay-really-bi person's own opinion of course because they have to not be lying or mistaken about being gay, but we do have to anecdotally prove that they actually mean bi.)

Where did I use the word research?

 

[katmobile]

LOL! Genuine research? She told an anecdote, a meaningless story unless she genuinely has links to scholars collecting hundreds or even thousands of those stories from a cross section of US society where men and women claim to be gay, but the researcher is able to identify an underage opposite sex relationship they had which really makes them bisexual (in the so-called-gay-really-bi person's own opinion of course because they have to not be lying or mistaken about being gay, but we do have to anecdotally prove that they actually mean bi.)

Really why does it matter if a fictional character is gay or bi I mean really?

 

[thrasherpix]

As a lesbian myself who dated guys in school, I can relate to other females who did the same as shared in Dilemmas of Desire (note link for those who want to learn more about it, maybe check it out from the library--note, it's just a single chapter, not what the entire book is about). In contrast, despite dating boys and even feeling affection for a couple of them that I'm still remember fondly (and I could enjoy the attention and fuss made over me at times), I do not relate to Willow's obsession with boys or her passion with Oz up to season 4. Rather, it would be closer [*braces self as I say this with a cringe*], closer to But I'm a Cheerleader. A very silly movie, but it would also be one that most if not all lesbians who had boyfriends in high school who shared in Dilemmas of Desire could relate to, just like me, better than how Willow was depicted by straight writers.

On a side note, many bis take crap from both straight and gay crowds and find it easier to be accepted to claim to be one or the other depending on who they're with (or which way they lean). (Speaking of which, I've heard the argument that calling Willow bi is "lesbian erasure" but unless they're doing this to Tara and Kennedy then it's not; if any kind of erasure is going on--not saying that it is, but if it is--calling Willow lesbian is bi-erasure.)

Also, many are pressured into relationships they feel obligated to be in, and other reasons than love can drive people to date or marry. One ex-priest (Russian Orthodox) I heard about married and had one child, and according to his wife that was the only time they had sex in their years of marriage to "prove" he wasn't gay (once he did come out, he came out in a big way...naturally, he's no longer a priest as well as divorced, and it's not that he just turned gay all of a sudden). Heck, on GaySpeak (that went down years ago but recently came back) there used to be a guy in New York City (where sexual orientation shouldn't be a problem) asking for a closeted lesbian to marry him so they could both be who they were in secret while appeasing their respective families, but their marrying (or even having children) wouldn't make them straight. It would just be a smoke screen.

And then there are other gay men and women who said that they dated (especially in high school) or even married hoping it would literally "straighten" them out. It didn't. (This wouldn't necessarily preclude a love based more on friendship than romance.) And I just don't want to touch on those who have sex (including lesbians with men and straight guys with gay men) or even marry against their desires for survival.

 

[Puppet]

On a side note, many bis take crap from both straight and gay crowds and find it easier to be accepted to claim to be one or the other depending on who they're with (or which way they lean). (Speaking of which, I've heard the argument that calling Willow bi is "lesbian erasure" but unless they're doing this to Tara and Kennedy then it's not; if any kind of erasure is going on--not saying that it is, but if it is--calling Willow lesbian is bi-erasure.)

I definitely used to do this, simply claiming that I was LGBT so I wouldn't have to say bi and have people look at me like I'm gonna end up with a dude no matter what, or like I'm greedy, or a million other things that both straight and gay people like to throw at bisexuals. It's better today than ten years ago, and part of that is the representation on TV. This is why I think making Willow gay was a cop-out, even if I understand why Joss did it at that point in time.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

There are a number of people who have entered traditional marriages only to come out after a while (usually about four years) and get divorced and get into a stable relationship with a same-sex partner. Elton John (married to Renate Blauel and partnered with David Furnish) and Sally Ride (married to Steven Hawley and partnered with Tam O'Shaughnessy) are good examples of this. Does the marriage make them bi rather than gay/lesbian? It may be that many people who date the opposite sex then come out due to self-image issues are responding to the distinction between what they are supposed to be versus what they are. Or it may be that there is an actual change - someone hetero, as the Skittles ads say, "tastes the rainbow" and likes it.

 

[rogueangel]

Some bi people will choose to identify as gay, for whatever reason - they may have chosen not to with the opposite sex, to avoid biphobia, just a label they prefer, whatever.
There are contradictions in how Willow was written, because society was still going through growing pains in understanding gay and bi people at the time.

A big stumbling block for me to accept that Willow is not bi is Vampire Willow. That is a version of Willow who was completely uninhibited and she was very bisexual.

 

[Xochiquetzal]

Really why does it matter if a fictional character is gay or bi I mean really?

Representation, erasure, all those little bitty tiny no big deal still LGBTQ anyway things that mean people conform and deny themselves instead of being able to be honest and open.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Ha ha! Vamp Willow and Vamp Xander did have a very healthy relationship.

The issue of Willow's sexuality is unknowable. She was involved with Oz, with whom she had a very satisfying relationship, she suffered during the breakup, she became involved with Tara, and at some point decided, Automatic Drive was for her. The writers weren't writing Willow as a closeted lesbian, and the Actress wasn't performing her as such, and the only real statement she was on the matter is that she was Gay Now, and unlikely to steal Xander from Anya. I think the evidence is there that some teenage girls have a more plastic sexuality that doesn't set until later in life. Or Willow is an empathic metamorph and takes on the traits of her lover's desire like that one episode of TNG with Jean Grey. Either way, it not my existential crisis.

 

[rogueangel]

Ha ha! Vamp Willow and Vamp Xander did have a very healthy relationship.

The issue of Willow's sexuality is unknowable. She was involved with Oz, with whom she had a very satisfying relationship, she suffered during the breakup, she became involved with Tara, and at some point decided, Automatic Drive was for her. The writers weren't writing Willow as a closeted lesbian, and the Actress wasn't performing her as such, and the only real statement she was on the matter is that she was Gay Now, and unlikely to steal Xander from Anya. I think the evidence is there that some teenage girls have a more plastic sexuality that doesn't set until later in life. Or Willow is an empathic metamorph and takes on the traits of her lover's desire like that one episode of TNG with Jean Grey. Either way, it not my existential crisis.

Yes, this gives me lots of thoughts.
Willow was portrayed as being in love with Xander, Oz, and then Tara. But she didn't really ever feel closeted. Her coming out was about being in love with Tara, it didn't seem like there was any gayness in it before Tara. She just fell in love with different people
There is something wrong with this fandom when Vampire Xander and Vampire Willow have the most healthy relationship on the show lol

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Most unhealthy Spikes obsession with the slayer
From wanting to kill her and when the chip put a end to that, to just wanting her , he stole her underwear , made a sex doll of her , a shrine , persistently stalked her ,. took advantage of her mental illness to sexually abuse her knowing full well what had happen to her in S6 and playing on her feelings in S7 isolating her from the other scoobies

The Spuffy relationship was MUTUALLY abusive. It went both ways. It's not a case of poor little Buffy and big bad Spike. Buffy CHOSE to go to Spike repeatedly. She was an addict and Spike was her drug, it was akin to someone saying "I shouldn't do this" then stabbing a needle in their arm.

In fact I would go as far to say that the Spuffy relationship is a more accurate representation of an addict than Willow's addiction storyline. Buffy feels crap, she does something that makes her feel better for a little bit (sex with Spike), she then feel guilty about it but then she keeps CHOOSING to do it behind her friends backs. Spike, being the drug addiction, then starts infringing on Buffy's life such as at her work, at home and when she's out with her friends. Whereas before Buffy was the one calling the shots, engaging as and when she chose, eventually Spike gets fed up of that and starts turning up where Buffy would rather he didn't. She CHOOSES to have sex with him on the front lawn of all places.

Buffy had agency during Season 6. She may have made bad choices but she still CHOSE to make those choices.

Next is Angel
He was supposed to look after Buffy , he was after all 240 years old with all life's experiences that that brings she is a 15 year old child

Buffy was 16 when she and Angel met face to face. His "I loved you from the moment I first saw you" is him retroactively applying his subsequent feelings for her to the time he first saw her. It's the whole "love at first sight" thing. Love is a complicated emotion that can't happen instantaneously, it takes time to grow. It's why some people get freaked out if their partner says "I love you" too soon in the relationship, especially as "I love you too" is the expected response.

You can be attracted to someone upon meeting them but it's not love. However, if you then started dating that person and it progressed to marriage etc then retroactively you could say it was "love at first sight", but in the moment of the first meeting itself, it was not love.

on her 17th birthday she is in his bed ,to which he takes advantage

He does not take advantage. She is the one that makes the move to kiss him and also Buffy was talking to Willow about sleeping with Angel that night when they were at school. It's not like Angel saw an unexpected opportunity he could take advantage of. Buffy was already in the mindset of sleeping with Angel.

he see the error of what they are doing and walks away from Buffy at the end of S3

Angel's curse had a massive impact on the Bangel relationship. It wasn't that they didn't want to be together, it was because it was too risky. In IWRY they were going at it like rabbits because Angel's curse wasn't an issue due to his human status.

no doubt there are body guards the world over that has feelings in some way or another for the people they are there to protect , I wonder how many are jumping their clients bones and especially when that client is a child

1) Employer/employee relationships happen in real life.

2. Buffy is not a child, she is a teenager. There is a difference even though they both come under "minor" status. Dobermans and Yorkshire terriers come under the status of dogs but they are not the same thing.

3. The whole vampire/slayer thing played into the Romeo and Juliet vibe. The relationship is ultimately doomed because Angel doesn't age whereas Buffy does so time itself is the greatest obstacle. Also Angel is supposed to be a "tortured soul", he can't be that if he has no experience.

3rd on my list is Willows obsession with Xander
She was mopping around after him from the off , I wonder if Buffy would have dated Xander but she knew Willow wanted him and then not got romantically involved with Angel . Willows obcession basically finished Xander and Corby

You're completely ignoring Xander's culpability. Yes, Willow loved Xander, but he was either completely oblivious to or ignoring her feelings for him. However, Willow never throws her feelings for him in his face, unlike what Xander does to Buffy. Willow's feelings are unrequited and she accepts that.

Xander only notices Willow once Oz takes an interest in her. It's a classic case of a child doesn't want something until someone else has it. Xander had ample opportunity to play with a toy (Willow) but chose not to. Once Oz picked it up and started playing with it, Xander wanted it despite already having a toy (Cordy) to play with. *

*I'm not saying that Cordy and Willow are objects for men to pick up and put down as and when they choose. I'm merely referring to them as toys for the analogy.

The Xander/Cordy relationship ended because Xander chose to cheat on Cordy with Willow. It takes two to tango. Willow can't be solely blamed for the Xander/Cordy break up.

4th was Xander being in love with Buffy
What did that poor boy have to do , what must he have felt ? what is wrong with me , he wanted Buffy from day one , he had to watch while she first went with Angel , Parkers one night stand , Riley who Xander did try to keep Buffy and Riley together , to Spike , he was there for Buffy always without any super powers

Buffy didn't fancy Xander pure and simple. She's not obligated to reciprocate his feelings just because Xander feels hard done by. There are several times when Xander is a jerk to Buffy and he gets pissy because she doesn't fancy him back.

Healthiest
Buffy and Riley he was the only real boyfriend Buffy had

Strongly disagree. They started off fine but it began going downhill once Buffy's status as the slayer was revealed. Season 5 was "red flag" behaviour from Riley and some of his less than stellar Season 4 behaviour shows shades of this eg The Yoko Factor. He became obsessed with having Buffy need him. His ultimatum to Buffy is basically "give me a reason to stay or it's your fault if I leave" and, quite frankly, Buffy missing the helicopter was the best thing that could've happened to her. If she had caught the helicopter then she would've "owed" Riley to make the relationship work as she would've cost him his chance to re-join the military. She would've been trapped in a relationship she was unhappy with and, unlike with Spuffy, it wouldn't be one she could've just stopped because she "owed" it to Riley to stay with him.

I'm no Spuffy fan, but at least it was honest about its unhealthiness and Buffy was well aware of how unhealthy it was even though she chose to engage in it. Briley liked to masquerade as this wholesome relationship, even had Xander describing Riley as "the one that comes along once in a lifetime" and basically telling Buffy she should tolerate Riley's bad behaviour, yet that is undoubtedly equally unhealthy for Buffy as Spuffy is, just for different reasons.

Willow was portrayed as being in love with Xander, Oz, and then Tara. But she didn't really ever feel closeted. Her coming out was about being in love with Tara, it didn't seem like there was any gayness in it before Tara. She just fell in love with different people

Agreed. This is why people consider Willow bisexual rather than gay because she falls in love with people regardless of their gender rather than being exclusively attracted to one or the other. Kennedy and the whole "gay now" was to show the audience that Willow wasn't going to go back to being "straight" after Tara, which could've been viewed as perpetuating the homophobic belief that being gay was "contagious" and that Willow was "cured" by Tara's death.

Whedon had to hide the Tillow relationship behind a magic metaphor in Season 4 (which is why the Season 6 magic=drugs metaphor doesn't work), it was allowed to be more open in Season 5 onwards (hence why Tillow don't have an onscreen kiss until Season 5). Having Willow go back to being "straight" with a male love interest post-Tara would've undone the work that had been achieved with Tillow. Of course Kennedy was completely awful and only paired with Tara on account of being a lesbian rather than having any likeable qualities, but she was there to serve "see Willow is still gay" purpose despite being a major step down from Tara.

There is something wrong with this fandom when Vampire Xander and Vampire Willow have the most healthy relationship on the show lol

It's not the fandom, it's the writers. The fact that several vampires have a healthier romantic relationship with each other than the main characters do says something about the writing of the show. Don't forget though, relationship drama is a staple in show writing because it supposedly keeps things "interesting" which is why love triangles are a common occurance. Healthy long term relationships are reserved for short-term side characters.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

@DeadlyDuo ,Dutch model turned Actress Famke Janssen played both Dr. Jean Grey and a metamorph on TNG named Kamala, who did have a romance with the good Captain. We all got a good laugh.

 

[katmobile]

Representation, erasure, all those little bitty tiny no big deal still LGBTQ anyway things that mean people conform and deny themselves instead of being able to be honest and open.

But both gay and bi deal with that and if anything the fact she doesn't feel free to admit she's bi is the issue. However she seems to be the one restricting herself but there's nothing showing that she is missing out on the love of her life doing so.