• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Unhealthiest Relationships, And Healthiest Relationships!

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,105
Age
54
The Spuffy relationship was MUTUALLY abusive. It went both ways. It's not a case of poor little Buffy and big bad Spike. Buffy CHOSE to go to Spike repeatedly. She was an addict and Spike was her drug, it was akin to someone saying "I shouldn't do this" then stabbing a needle in their arm.

In fact I would go as far to say that the Spuffy relationship is a more accurate representation of an addict than Willow's addiction storyline. Buffy feels crap, she does something that makes her feel better for a little bit (sex with Spike), she then feel guilty about it but then she keeps CHOOSING to do it behind her friends backs. Spike, being the drug addiction, then starts infringing on Buffy's life such as at her work, at home and when she's out with her friends. Whereas before Buffy was the one calling the shots, engaging as and when she chose, eventually Spike gets fed up of that and starts turning up where Buffy would rather he didn't. She CHOOSES to have sex with him on the front lawn of all places.

Buffy had agency during Season 6. She may have made bad choices but she still CHOSE to make those choices.



Buffy was 16 when she and Angel met face to face. His "I loved you from the moment I first saw you" is him retroactively applying his subsequent feelings for her to the time he first saw her. It's the whole "love at first sight" thing. Love is a complicated emotion that can't happen instantaneously, it takes time to grow. It's why some people get freaked out if their partner says "I love you" too soon in the relationship, especially as "I love you too" is the expected response.

You can be attracted to someone upon meeting them but it's not love. However, if you then started dating that person and it progressed to marriage etc then retroactively you could say it was "love at first sight", but in the moment of the first meeting itself, it was not love.



He does not take advantage. She is the one that makes the move to kiss him and also Buffy was talking to Willow about sleeping with Angel that night when they were at school. It's not like Angel saw an unexpected opportunity he could take advantage of. Buffy was already in the mindset of sleeping with Angel.



Angel's curse had a massive impact on the Bangel relationship. It wasn't that they didn't want to be together, it was because it was too risky. In IWRY they were going at it like rabbits because Angel's curse wasn't an issue due to his human status.



1) Employer/employee relationships happen in real life.

2. Buffy is not a child, she is a teenager. There is a difference even though they both come under "minor" status. Dobermans and Yorkshire terriers come under the status of dogs but they are not the same thing.

3. The whole vampire/slayer thing played into the Romeo and Juliet vibe. The relationship is ultimately doomed because Angel doesn't age whereas Buffy does so time itself is the greatest obstacle. Also Angel is supposed to be a "tortured soul", he can't be that if he has no experience.



You're completely ignoring Xander's culpability. Yes, Willow loved Xander, but he was either completely oblivious to or ignoring her feelings for him. However, Willow never throws her feelings for him in his face, unlike what Xander does to Buffy. Willow's feelings are unrequited and she accepts that.

Xander only notices Willow once Oz takes an interest in her. It's a classic case of a child doesn't want something until someone else has it. Xander had ample opportunity to play with a toy (Willow) but chose not to. Once Oz picked it up and started playing with it, Xander wanted it despite already having a toy (Cordy) to play with. *

*I'm not saying that Cordy and Willow are objects for men to pick up and put down as and when they choose. I'm merely referring to them as toys for the analogy.

The Xander/Cordy relationship ended because Xander chose to cheat on Cordy with Willow. It takes two to tango. Willow can't be solely blamed for the Xander/Cordy break up.



Buffy didn't fancy Xander pure and simple. She's not obligated to reciprocate his feelings just because Xander feels hard done by. There are several times when Xander is a jerk to Buffy and he gets pissy because she doesn't fancy him back.



Strongly disagree. They started off fine but it began going downhill once Buffy's status as the slayer was revealed. Season 5 was "red flag" behaviour from Riley and some of his less than stellar Season 4 behaviour shows shades of this eg The Yoko Factor. He became obsessed with having Buffy need him. His ultimatum to Buffy is basically "give me a reason to stay or it's your fault if I leave" and, quite frankly, Buffy missing the helicopter was the best thing that could've happened to her. If she had caught the helicopter then she would've "owed" Riley to make the relationship work as she would've cost him his chance to re-join the military. She would've been trapped in a relationship she was unhappy with and, unlike with Spuffy, it wouldn't be one she could've just stopped because she "owed" it to Riley to stay with him.

I'm no Spuffy fan, but at least it was honest about its unhealthiness and Buffy was well aware of how unhealthy it was even though she chose to engage in it. Briley liked to masquerade as this wholesome relationship, even had Xander describing Riley as "the one that comes along once in a lifetime" and basically telling Buffy she should tolerate Riley's bad behaviour, yet that is undoubtedly equally unhealthy for Buffy as Spuffy is, just for different reasons.



Agreed. This is why people consider Willow bisexual rather than gay because she falls in love with people regardless of their gender rather than being exclusively attracted to one or the other. Kennedy and the whole "gay now" was to show the audience that Willow wasn't going to go back to being "straight" after Tara, which could've been viewed as perpetuating the homophobic belief that being gay was "contagious" and that Willow was "cured" by Tara's death.

Whedon had to hide the Tillow relationship behind a magic metaphor in Season 4 (which is why the Season 6 magic=drugs metaphor doesn't work), it was allowed to be more open in Season 5 onwards (hence why Tillow don't have an onscreen kiss until Season 5). Having Willow go back to being "straight" with a male love interest post-Tara would've undone the work that had been achieved with Tillow. Of course Kennedy was completely awful and only paired with Tara on account of being a lesbian rather than having any likeable qualities, but she was there to serve "see Willow is still gay" purpose despite being a major step down from Tara.



It's not the fandom, it's the writers. The fact that several vampires have a healthier romantic relationship with each other than the main characters do says something about the writing of the show. Don't forget though, relationship drama is a staple in show writing because it supposedly keeps things "interesting" which is why love triangles are a common occurance. Healthy long term relationships are reserved for short-term side characters.
Addition and Abuse not the same thing

You totally ignore the fact that Buffy is mentally ill ( Clinical depression ) and the fact that Spike knew she had come back wrong,different ,
When Buffy is mentally ill its ok for Spike to take advantage of that ? , As for Buffy going to Spike not knowing why she does , not knowing why she keeps letting him , but doing it anyway is not a sign of addition its a sign of abuse and being abused , as with the pusher turning up when not wanted , he is taking advantage of the person he is supplying
There is countless situations of sexual abuse both adult and children, that the victim tells nobody , never understands why they let it happen, why they puts themselves in a position where it can happen , just like Buffy when it happens they feel guilty afterwards, but it happens again anyway , frequently what happen comes out many years later when the victim is able to deal with it , or a event happens
Pursuing someone for sex whether a child or a mentally ill adult is wrong , whether they come to you or not , Spike knew Buffy had come back wrong..... its abuse...... full stop , but until seeing red Spike had been able to talk Buffy into sex frequently against her better judgement seeing red is when Buffy was mentally strong enough not to give in to Spike
Buffy went to Spike because she had nobody else, he even tells her that , instead of helping her he took advantage of her and for a while with him she could forget all the bad things that had happened to her , if he had treated her humanly like it was shown many times he could, maybe they could have had a real relationship......he didn't he took advantage
As for Angel and Buffy she was under age , they were not two teenagers in love together he was a very old adult , while when it started she was a child, no matter how it is dressed up its creepy ,he had had 4 lives he knows the score what do you think could happen? in the end Buffy mum gave him the push on something he knew was wrong and because he love Buffy he left , but he should have never let it get to that point especially having sex with Buffy
As for Xander he at first is a just a teenage boy ,he wants Buffy as a girl friend , his view throughout is Buffy makes bad choices and she certainly does with the two vampires they are going nowhere ! no doubt he gets pissy why them not me? when Buffy relied so much on him ? he is better later when his relationship with Anya came along and understandable he hated the relation ship with Spike , he pushed Riley because basically Riley was good for Buffy a normal human , whether he knew Riley had problems with self esteem is not shown
 
Last edited:

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,478
Age
49
There are a number of people who have entered traditional marriages only to come out after a while (usually about four years) and get divorced and get into a stable relationship with a same-sex partner. Elton John (married to Renate Blauel and partnered with David Furnish) and Sally Ride (married to Steven Hawley and partnered with Tam O'Shaughnessy) are good examples of this. Does the marriage make them bi rather than gay/lesbian? It may be that many people who date the opposite sex then come out due to self-image issues are responding to the distinction between what they are supposed to be versus what they are. Or it may be that there is an actual change - someone hetero, as the Skittles ads say, "tastes the rainbow" and likes it.
I don't doubt that but textually that doesn't seem to be what we're presented with Willow. This is why I think Willow is bi with a preference for women.
 

Buffy Summers

Yataro
Staff member
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
33,070
Location
The City of Angels
Sineya
LOL! Genuine research? She told an anecdote, a meaningless story unless she genuinely has links to scholars collecting hundreds or even thousands of those stories from a cross section of US society where men and women claim to be gay, but the researcher is able to identify an underage opposite sex relationship they had which really makes them bisexual (in the so-called-gay-really-bi person's own opinion of course because they have to not be lying or mistaken about being gay, but we do have to anecdotally prove that they actually mean bi.)
Representation, erasure, all those little bitty tiny no big deal still LGBTQ anyway things that mean people conform and deny themselves instead of being able to be honest and open.
Please calm down. I know this is a personal subject for many but that is no reason to not have a civil discussion. People are allowed to disagree - that's why this is a discussion board.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,023
Age
30
Addition and Abuse not the same thing

You totally ignore the fact that Buffy is mentally ill ( Clinical depression ) and the fact that Spike knew she had come back wrong,different ,
When Buffy is mentally ill its ok for Spike to take advantage of that ? , As for Buffy going to Spike not knowing why she does , not knowing why she keeps letting him , but doing it anyway is not a sign of addition its a sign of abuse and being abused , as with the pusher turning up when not wanted , he is taking advantage of the person he is supplying
There is countless situations of sexual abuse both adult and children, that the victim tells nobody , never understands why they let it happen, why they puts themselves in a position where it can happen , just like Buffy when it happens they feel guilty afterwards, but it happens again anyway , frequently what happen comes out many years later when the victim is able to deal with it , or a event happens
Pursuing someone for sex whether a child or a mentally ill adult is wrong , whether they come to you or not , Spike knew Buffy had come back wrong..... its abuse...... full stop , but until seeing red Spike had been able to talk Buffy into sex frequently against her better judgement seeing red is when Buffy was mentally strong enough not to give in to Spike
Buffy went to Spike because she had nobody else, he even tells her that , instead of helping her he took advantage of her and for a while with him she could forget all the bad things that had happened to her , if he had treated her humanly like it was shown many times he could, maybe they could have had a real relationship......he didn't he took advantage
Spike wanted a more genuine relationship, it was Buffy who wanted it kept purely physical. Also Buffy was ashamed because of the scoobies. Look at how Xander reacted when Anya slept with Spike. The scoobies disliked Spike in Season 6, even more so than Season 5, despite him having spent the summer working with them. Buffy is the one who initiates the sex. They are fighting and she is the one who unzips him then starts riding him. She is the one who pounces on him when she's invisible. She is the one feeling him up when Xander is stood right there because she can't be seen. Buffy enjoys the sex with Spike in the moment itself which is why she keeps going back, it's afterwards when she has to go back to the scoobies that she feels ashamed.

Buffy is not an innocent little victim that didn't know what she was doing. It could even be argued that she took advantage of Spike's feelings for her.

I know you love Buffy and hate Spike but stop trying to paint him as the big bad villain whilst Buffy is the damsel in distress. Buffy screwed up, she even acknowledged this in Season 7. Stop trying to take away Buffy's agency over her own actions.

As for Xander he at first is a just a teenage boy ,he wants Buffy as a girl friend , his view throughout is Buffy makes bad choices and she certainly does with the two vampires they are going nowhere ! no doubt he gets pissy why them not me? when Buffy relied so much on him ? he is better later when his relationship with Anya came along and understandable he hated the relation ship with Spike , he pushed Riley because basically Riley was good for Buffy a normal human , whether he knew Riley had problems with self esteem is not shown
So you're saying Xander has the right to judge and decide to Buffy should and shouldn't be dating?

Riley was not good for Buffy in Season 5. Do you want her trapped in a relationship that she's unhappy in? Isn't that exactly your reason for hating Spuffy?
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,675
Location
Manchester
As for Xander he at first is a just a teenage boy ,he wants Buffy as a girl friend , his view throughout is Buffy makes bad choices and she certainly does with the two vampires they are going nowhere ! no doubt he gets pissy why them not me? when Buffy relied so much on him ? he is better later when his relationship with Anya came along and understandable he hated the relation ship with Spike , he pushed Riley because basically Riley was good for Buffy a normal human , whether he knew Riley had problems with self esteem is not shown
Sorry Dora but this Buffy sounds like someone who wears her mittens on a string and shouldn't be allowed to cross the road on her own. Why is she old enough and mature enough to kill, to die, and to watch others die but not considered capable of choosing her own boyfriends?
 
Top Bottom